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Kroothawk wrote:
Also didn't know White Wolf is still existing after they vanished from the market after a series of bad business decisions.

here ya go, go share some love:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/449050.page


The only Kickstarter project I've seen that I truely have an issue with is this one:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1675907842/pathfinder-online-technology-demo

Holdenstein wrote:

brettz123 wrote:
1. They are only asking for $5000 so obviously it isn't about just raising funds.

They are only asking for $5000 because the project is going ahead regardless, so they don't want any possibility of having to refuse the orders. This is simply a pre-order system piggy backing on the popularity of Kickstarter. That is not to say that it's bad business, it may well be very good business but it's also rampant opportunism and therefore Mantic's MO.

Everyone using kickstarter is an opportunist..... so what? That is the point of kickstarter. Anyone can use it to raise funds for a project. It doesn't matter how big or small you are or how close to completion your project is. Seems like a pretty nice system to me....... unless you include too many tentacles in your game but that is for another thread

Also, the initial $5000 is clearly stated on the page to be used to fund the sculpting and production of the exclusive Vampiress miniature *not* the production of the rulebook as everyone on here is falsely stating.

You are free to repost this in the Kings of War thread. No need to start a third thread on the rulebook release.
Good thing we already have several year old threads on a game, that according to Mantic, is only launched in June:

About this project
Mantic Games is a small company looking to do big things. In June, we’re launching Kings of War – a mass combat fantasy battle game.

^ Thanks, but I'd prefer a reply from a moderator as far as the question on the previous page goes.

Stretch goals so far are looking good too!

Seriously? SERIOUSLY? "Looking good"?! They've completely missed the point of stretch goals, especially the $7500 one. It's a joke, not a stretch goal. That's a "for $5 you get your name in the book as a special thank you" backer level, not a stretch goal. 10k and you get more extras that you paid extra for? It doesn't increae anything in any level you've pledged, just the stuff you already paid extra for? The point of stretch goals is generally to make the funding levels better, or do more stuff than you woul dhave been able to afford. And only after $10k, THEN things get interesting? Shouldn't they have been interesting to begin with? Kickstarters like this are to fund a new project or make an existing project better than it could have been if releaed normally. Yhis does neither, it's just a new online store for already existing product. Additional artwork for the rulebook, that's a stretch goal. Higher quality printing run or a larger print run so the final product is cheaper, that's a stretch goal. Including those Extras in the different backer levels is a stretch goal (actually, that would make a damn good stretch goal) or turning it into a starter set with minis is a stretch goal. There is nothing in any of this kickstarter that makes this particular release better in any way over how it would have released without kickstarter and it doesn't even get it out the door any sooner, it's just more money in their pockets for vague future projects.

This kickstarter should have been about getting ogres and werewolves out, or making the rulebook better, not funding book that is already made and printed. I'm not against Mantic or Kings of War. I'm all for good kickstarter projects, and I don't mind larger companies using it to make their releases better, but this is just terribly thought through and and horribly presented, and you really don't get anyhitng from it that you wouldn't get .

scarletsquig wrote:Also, the initial $5000 is clearly stated on the page to be used to fund the sculpting and production of the exclusive Vampiress miniature *not* the production of the rulebook as everyone on here is falsely stating.

To be fair - that actually is pretty confusing. It's one tiny sentence listed under the $5000 mark. The book and release of the book are featured waaay more prominently. AND it's the basis of what you get for every reward level.
Plus there's the graf of "Why Kickstarter" that talks about bringing out miniatures quicker, wound counters etc."

They could stand to clarify some stuff there. I certainly thought it was the book after giving it a once over.


I'm a bit confused about the $20 reward level though - it's an electronic copy of the rules. But Mantic always gives the rules away as a .pdf anyway. So it doesn't seem like you get a lot for your $20. (Especially since a little more gets you the actual book). I suppose it could be a nicer more e-booky affair than just a simple .pdf. But it seems like the sort of thing that would be a $5 or under reward generally.

I see absolutely no logic in the complaints against Mantic using Kickstarter. I just spent the last 20 minutes reading about Kickstarter and its purpose. NOWHERE does it say that it is for use by new start-ups or other non-established entities.

So please explain to me why this is such a bad thing. Was it a bad thing for Steve Jackson to do Ogre? If so I supported the wrong type of project. What about CMON doing the Zombie game? They are established as well and I didn't see any of you hating on them for doing the Kickstarter. If they are bad as well, then I really supported the wrong type with that game. I will burn with my Chuck Norris zombie with that decision.

Since it is such a big deal, I will no longer support any Kickstarter project unless I read here that established members support it. This way I can make sure that I am not supporting some company that is just milking the system and just trying to earn a free buck/pound/euro/yen, etc.

In this case it's not an issue with kickstarter projects or established companies using kickstarter that I have, but the whole thing is just terribly terribly presented and you really get nothing special for going through kickstarter. You can pay additional for the "Extras" when those extras should have been the point of the funding levels. You could back the project for $1 and pay the extra $25 for the werewolves and it's the same bonuses as backing $100 and paying an extra $25 for werewolves. The different funding levels are just buying already existing product that's been out for a long time.

The $5k doesn't fund anything directly related to the kickstarter. The stretch goals don't improve the final release product or any of the different funding levels at ALL. It doesn't improve any components or design or materials used. It doesn't get it out the door any faster. it doesn't have any impact whatsoever except supposedly getting a vague future army out "sooner". Kickstarter has been used as nothing more than a pre-order in the past, but this is just laughable.

Again, who cares if it is for the books, how big they are, or anything else? Who cares if EA of GW do it? This is like yelling at people for what charity they donate to... A they don't have to do it, it is their choice and B what business is it of ours what other people choose to support with their $?

It will succeed or fail, there is no need to influence it negatively, there's no point to that. If you think there is, it's like saying there are too many charities, shut that charity down because other charities I like better would definitely, definitely be getting that money otherwise. It's a false premise. I may donate to one charity because it hits close to home, or I particularly liked their message, whatever. It doesn't necessarily mean I would just run to the next one in sight if that first one shut down.

I dunno boys, normally I take a bit of offense to the whole 'Dakka is full of people who are negative and bitch' type stuff. A lot actually. But on the kickstarter subject in particular, there is a pretty ridiculous amount of ruffled feathers... what bugs me most is that judging by the attitude of some of the strongest nay-sayers, it sounds like they wouldn't even contribute to anything anyways. Which makes it bitching for the sake of bitching, if you don't even care about the subject really lol.

I think we can do better. We don't have to attack things we disagree with guys, because just because they are doing things differently than we would in turn doesn't mean they are attacking our values. There is no need to respond as if they did.

^ So... can I start a thread with proper and regularly updated info in the first post?

It's a little bit annoying that this kickstarter specifically is going to be the only one on this forum that doesn't have that kind of info in it, because unlike all the others it was started by someone with zero interest in it who just wanted to say that it sucks.

I'm pretty sure if GW started a kickstarter and I started a thread about it saying "WTF lol GW have lost the plot go buy mantic" and started calling anyone who liked the idea GW employees or fanbois (as has happened in this thread), it'd be closed super-quick, so all I'm asking for is equal footing on this.

I promise to keep it entirely neutral and only post factual non-opinionated or promotional stuff in the first post!

Also, on-topic, this is nearly funded! Only $270 to go!

Yup fair point, locking this one up, start another with a more... balanced... title pls.

Don't get me wrong guys, everyone is entitled to their opinions and can think what Mantic is doing/proposing doesn't deserve support, but them using a perfectly available and legitimate venue to secure funding isn't a crime. Take issue with their product or their plans, but let's stick to discussing that and not whether they are 'allowed' to use something they are obviously allowed to use.