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htj wrote:Oh right. Seems kind of like an over-reaction on your part then.

I take it you've never heard of a guy on Dakka named KhornatePysker. Each of threads were troll posts.

No no no.

"Belief" (whatever that means) does NOT create Chaos Gods.

Manchu wrote:No no no.

"Belief" (whatever that means) doe NOT create Chaos Gods.

Do you have any source on that? The Eldar Gods existed as warp entities despite not existing as personifications of emotions or ideals, but merely as idols of worship.

Do you have a cite saying that "belief" does create Chaos Gods? At best, "emotions" rather than "beliefs" are what engender a Chaos God's interest in real space. The Eldar did not worship Slaanesh into existence.

Do you have a cite that the Eldar Gods are in fact warp entities?

Manchu wrote:No no no.

"Belief" (whatever that means) doe NOT create Chaos Gods.

And you're apparently ignoring the fact that the beliefs of the Imperial Cult do strengthen the Emperor in the fluff. Which is the canon foundation for my theory.

Tadashi wrote:And you're apparently ignoring the fact that the beliefs of the Imperial Cult do strengthen the Emperor in the fluff. Which is the canon foundation for my theory.

I'm ignoring it because it doesn't exist anywhere in the published material.

Tadashi wrote:

htj wrote:Oh right. Seems kind of like an over-reaction on your part then.

I take it you've never heard of a guy on Dakka named KhornatePysker. Each of threads were troll posts.

I fail to see the connection between a failed troll, and one of Dakka's more reliable and well spoken posters accidental typoes.

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:And you're apparently ignoring the fact that the beliefs of the Imperial Cult do strengthen the Emperor in the fluff. Which is the canon foundation for my theory.

I'm ignoring it because it doesn't exist anywhere in the published material.

It does, by reading in between the lines. Of course, its fine if you want to follow the letter, but me and a lot of people would prefer more variety in our enjoyment of 40k.

htj wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

htj wrote:Oh right. Seems kind of like an over-reaction on your part then.

I take it you've never heard of a guy on Dakka named KhornatePysker. Each of threads were troll posts.

I fail to see the connection between a failed troll, and one of Dakka's more reliable and well spoken posters accidental typoes.

My heads grown in size, two posts given me praise in one day ... I'm not sure I can take it

Thanks for your kind words Ser!

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:And you're apparently ignoring the fact that the beliefs of the Imperial Cult do strengthen the Emperor in the fluff. Which is the canon foundation for my theory.

I'm ignoring it because it doesn't exist anywhere in the published material.

It does, by reading in between the lines. Of course, its fine if you want to follow the letter, but me and a lot of people would prefer more variety in our enjoyment of 40k.

And others would like to have a more linear, factual account of the background.

Don't get me wrong, I like theories, but ones with some actual substance that make sense. This one seems to ignore the fact that the Emperor is still protecting mankind from the comfort of the Warp, which has been stated in actual material.

Tadashi wrote:It does, by reading in between the lines. Of course, its fine if you want to follow the letter, but me and a lot of people would prefer more variety in our enjoyment of 40k.

LOL, so you'd prefer to make up stuff and pretend that it's what the published sources say? Well, our conversations over the last few days make a lot more sense now.

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:It does, by reading in between the lines. Of course, its fine if you want to follow the letter, but me and a lot of people would prefer more variety in our enjoyment of 40k.

LOL, so you'd prefer to make up stuff and pretend that it's what the published sources say? Well, our conversations over the last few days make a lot more sense now.

I'm not making it up. Its there in between the lines of the published material. If we stick to the letter of the fluff, what's the point of discussing fluff in the first place at all?

Pilau Rice wrote:

htj wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

htj wrote:Oh right. Seems kind of like an over-reaction on your part then.

I take it you've never heard of a guy on Dakka named KhornatePysker. Each of threads were troll posts.

I fail to see the connection between a failed troll, and one of Dakka's more reliable and well spoken posters accidental typoes.

My heads grown in size, two posts given me praise in one day ... I'm not sure I can take it

Thanks for your kind words Ser!

Then I shall temper it with condescending pity for your living in Reading.

*shakes head condescendingly*




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Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:It does, by reading in between the lines. Of course, its fine if you want to follow the letter, but me and a lot of people would prefer more variety in our enjoyment of 40k.

LOL, so you'd prefer to make up stuff and pretend that it's what the published sources say? Well, our conversations over the last few days make a lot more sense now.

I'm not making it up. Its there in between the lines of the published material. If we stick to the letter of the fluff, what's the point of discussing fluff in the first place at all?

Which pieces of fluff gave you the impression, though?

htj wrote:

Then I shall temper it with condescending pity for your living in Reading.

*shakes head condescendingly*

That's put me back where I belong, your Lordship

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:It does, by reading in between the lines. Of course, its fine if you want to follow the letter, but me and a lot of people would prefer more variety in our enjoyment of 40k.

LOL, so you'd prefer to make up stuff and pretend that it's what the published sources say? Well, our conversations over the last few days make a lot more sense now.

I'm not making it up. Its there in between the lines of the published material. If we stick to the letter of the fluff, what's the point of discussing fluff in the first place at all?

Where exactly? Because there are numerous contradictions and accounts perhaps and other interpretations of actual events?

Tadashi wrote:An example of this is how Amandera Kerrel banished a daemon by her faith in the God-Emperor, but the Emperor is a psyker, not a warp entity, and its not possible to invoke the aid of another mortal being. Now, as the Emperor still 'lives' it has yet to fully awaken, but the moment the Golden Throne fails and the Emperor's body finally dies, the God-Emperor will fully awake.

I just noticed this, at this time the Emperor was alive and not in his current state. If it's the picture from Collected Visions you can actually see the Emperor on the Golden Throne, if I recall.

Pilau Rice wrote:
I just noticed this, at this time the Emperor was alive and not in his current state. If it's the picture from Collected Visions you can actually see the Emperor on the Golden Throne, if I recall.

He's a psyker...a creature of the material universe. You can't invoke his power.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
I just noticed this, at this time the Emperor was alive and not in his current state. If it's the picture from Collected Visions you can actually see the Emperor on the Golden Throne, if I recall.

He's a psyker...a creature of the material universe. You can't invoke his power.

Yet, Eupherati Keeler does exactly the same?

He has a warp presence, where his power comes from and where it's tied too. Maybe they tap into it when they invoke his name, maybe he lends them his power like the Soul Binding with Astropaths but indirectly.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
I just noticed this, at this time the Emperor was alive and not in his current state. If it's the picture from Collected Visions you can actually see the Emperor on the Golden Throne, if I recall.

He's a psyker...a creature of the material universe. You can't invoke his power.

Yet, Eupherati Keeler does exactly the same?

He has a warp presence, where his power comes from and where it's tied too. Maybe they tap into it when they invoke his name, maybe he lends them his power like the Soul Binding with Astropaths but indirectly.

Now why would he do that? He hates religion and acts based on it. There's no way the old man would allow himself to do anything to bolster religious faith. He had Monarchia burnt to the ground, remember?

Either way this is just Tadashi's theory, never has he said this should be taken as cannon. It's just another part of GW letting us believe what we want on certain aspects, encouraging creativity you could say.

As for belief not creating a Warp Entity, if belief is strong enough, it can create some pretty strong emotions. Just think of medieval religious fanatics or people who believe strongly in anything. They will definately have a strong emotional response to that thing. In that sense, with the blind faith and overarching worship of the Emperor throughout the galaxy, I think its perfectly possible that the Emperor's name has become a synonym for hope, and all things nice.

Therefore, a strong enough belief, as I believe the Imperium has in its Emperor, could lead to a God Emperor being created in the warp. The only part I'm not too keen on is the fact that the God entity cannot manifest itself until the human E is completely dead. If they are two completely different things, admittedly linked but not directly, why should the God Emperor need the human Emperor's death to manifest itself?

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
I just noticed this, at this time the Emperor was alive and not in his current state. If it's the picture from Collected Visions you can actually see the Emperor on the Golden Throne, if I recall.

He's a psyker...a creature of the material universe. You can't invoke his power.

Yet, Eupherati Keeler does exactly the same?

He has a warp presence, where his power comes from and where it's tied too. Maybe they tap into it when they invoke his name, maybe he lends them his power like the Soul Binding with Astropaths but indirectly.

Now why would he do that? He hates religion and acts based on it. There's no way the old man would allow himself to do anything to bolster religious faith. He had Monarchia burnt to the ground, remember?

Because he cares about his people? Times were changing during the Heresy, that much is apparent. Monarchia was a totally different situation, and before the outbreak of the Heresy by a number of years. It was a whole city raised in idolatry to the Emperor when the Imperial Truth was the creed of the people. It wasn't just about the Emperor being a God, it was also about the Word Bearers wasting time building cities when they should be bringing the lost humans back to the fold.

So Mr. Rice, you're arguing that miracles, living saints and all that come from the Human Emperor, while claiming that Tadashi is wrong because there is no fluff to support him?

Without trying to sound obnoxious, do you have any fluff saying miracles come directly from the husk on the golden throne?

Lord Rogukiel wrote: The only part I'm not too keen on is the fact that the God entity cannot manifest itself until the human E is completely dead. If they are two completely different things, admittedly linked but not directly, why should the God Emperor need the human Emperor's death to manifest itself?

Because people believe the Emperor is still bound to the Golden Throne. Therefore, the God-Emperor is still shackled until the Human Emperor finally lets go.

Tadashi wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote: The only part I'm not too keen on is the fact that the God entity cannot manifest itself until the human E is completely dead. If they are two completely different things, admittedly linked but not directly, why should the God Emperor need the human Emperor's death to manifest itself?

Because people believe the Emperor is still bound to the Golden Throne. Therefore, the God-Emperor is still shackled until the Human Emperor finally lets go.

Does the Human Emperor know he's doing this? And if so, why?

Tadashi wrote:Its there in between the lines of the published material.

No, it isn't.

Tadashi wrote:If we stick to the letter of the fluff, what's the point of discussing fluff in the first place at all?

Because it's interesting?


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Tadashi wrote:There's no way the old man would allow himself to do anything to bolster religious faith. He had Monarchia burnt to the ground, remember?

The Emperor stamps out false religion. Perhaps to pave the way for a true one.


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Lord Rogukiel wrote:... if belief is strong enough, it can create some pretty strong emotions.

You'd do well if you just kept that statement in mind. Belief is not an emotion.

p_gray99 wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote: The only part I'm not too keen on is the fact that the God entity cannot manifest itself until the human E is completely dead. If they are two completely different things, admittedly linked but not directly, why should the God Emperor need the human Emperor's death to manifest itself?

Because people believe the Emperor is still bound to the Golden Throne. Therefore, the God-Emperor is still shackled until the Human Emperor finally lets go.

Does the Human Emperor know he's doing this? And if so, why?

No. In my theory (as Rogukiel said, its just a theory, and not to be taken as canon), the Human Emperor knew of the God-Emperor's existence and sought to prevent it from coming to be by suppressing the Lectitio Divinitatus starting at Monarchia. But the Human Emperor's been dead as a person since the end of the Horus Heresy, so while his ruined body's link to the Golden Throne shackles the God-Emperor (who powers Imperial Saints, miracles, etc. regardless) in the Warp, the Human Emperor is no longer aware of reality.

And before anyone brings up the events at the end of M36, I've checked with Melissa (no thanks to an argument between me and Brother Coa over the Sisters in another forum) and while they did receive visions, that was just be a manifestation of the God-Emperor, and not by the Human Emperor (relative to my theory, of course).

Lord Rogukiel wrote:So Mr. Rice, you're arguing that miracles, living saints and all that come from the Human Emperor, while claiming that Tadashi is wrong because there is no fluff to support him?

Without trying to sound obnoxious, do you have any fluff saying miracles come directly from the husk on the golden throne?

Not at all, I'm pretty sure that there is some stuff about, it's not really my specialty but I like a challenge.

Here goes for a quick look.

Codex Witchhunters: Acts of Faith are a manifestation of the Emperor’s divine purpose; small miracles that can turn the tide of battle if used in the correct combination at just the right moment.

Codex Witchhunters: His Will be Done: The Inquisitor becomes a furious manifestation of the Emperor’s divine will, dispensing His justice with every blow and cowing all His enemies with his holy wrath.

Codex Witchhunters:St Celstine As Celestine’s body was set down amongst the honoured dead, her sisters saw that life lingered within her yet. They saw in her eyes the light of one touched by the divine will of the Emperor, and reverently approached, cleansing her body of the blood and filth of battle until she stood flawless before them.

But the Sororitas, at prayer within the halls of the Convent Prioris were gladdened by the mournful peal, for they knew that had she fallen, Celestine would even now be sitting at the side of the Emperor.

My issue with Tadashis theory is that there are two Emperors. When there is clearly one, who already is protecting mankind.

Tadashi wrote:In my theory (as Rogukiel said, its just a theory, and not to be taken as canon

Sorry, I get a little too into this stuff sometimes.

Tadashi wrote:... that was just be a manifestation of the God-Emperor, and not by the Human Emperor (relative to my theory, of course).

And yet ... the Sisters were taken by the Custodes before the Golden Throne.

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Its there in between the lines of the published material.

No, it isn't.

Tadashi wrote:If we stick to the letter of the fluff, what's the point of discussing fluff in the first place at all?

Because it's interesting?

Not really. No point in discussing the matter since all I have to do is look at the codexes and stick to what they say since any form of creativity and interpretation is pointless because the letter of the fluff says otherwise.

Pilau Rice wrote:My issue with Tadashis theory is that there are two Emperors. When there is clearly one, who already is protecting mankind.

Exactly. A theory only deserves as much respect as the evidence that can be marshaled to support it.


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Tadashi wrote:No point in discussing the matter since all I have to do is look at the codexes and stick to what they say since any form of creativity and interpretation is pointless because the letter of the fluff says otherwise.

We have a fiction section on Dakka that might be more to your liking.

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:No point in discussing the matter since all I have to do is look at the codexes and stick to what they say since any form of creativity and interpretation is pointless because the letter of the fluff says otherwise.

We have a fiction section on Dakka that might be more to your liking.

Right...*read sarcasm*

Manchu wrote:A theory only deserves as much respect as the evidence that can be marshaled to support it.

I agree completely, if it's a matter of whether we believe it's correct or not. However, this thread isn't here to set out cannon, it's simply here to set out some fannon and thus simply be a discussion of what could be the case. Technically no it's not a theory as a theory is the most likely thing, however this is a good idea for how it could work.

Tadashi wrote:Right...*read sarcasm*

No, in all seriousness, if you want to invent new things to make the fluff more interesting for you specifically and people who think like you, this is called "writing fan fiction" and we do have people on this site that enjoy that. DarkLordSeanron, for example, wrote an awesome "death of the Emperor" scenario. Did it match the published fluff? Hell no. Was it still interesting? Hell yes.


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p_gray99 wrote:... this thread isn't here to set out cannon, it's simply here to set out some fannon and thus simply be a discussion of what could be the case.

Take it from a mod, this forum is not for fan fiction.