Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

After they are hit you nominate who the tesla destructor is firing on, but before any armor penetration rolls are made.

Definately right on the LOS thing. If it was classified as a beam it could still hit them, however since it is not it can only hurt people in LOS. Holy crap doom scythe is now the ultimate sniper(since all hits count but wounds can only be allocated to LOS)

Crazyterran wrote:
I'm pretty sure he's supposed to declare first, but you should probably have had whichever tank was hit by the beam first be the primary target.

My 2c, at least.

The Necron FAQ says you can pick any unit hit by the death ray as the target of the tesla destructor, so you get to choose what the primary target is effectively after finding out how long the line is and what is hit but you should definitely choose before fully resolving the death ray.

Say the ray hits 4 out of 10 infantry units, does it hit the entire unit or just the 4?

The unit(not models, so no sniping) would take 4 hits and wounds would be allocated normally.

If by just clipping a unit you hit every model in it that weapon would be extremely OP.

One quick shift in focus for me. "pick a point within 3D6" of the initial firing point" does this mean you pick the second point before or after you roll 3d6?

You cannot actually place the point if you don't know how long the 3D6" are.

IMO it's after.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:The unit(not models, so no sniping) would take 4 hits and wounds would be allocated normally.

If by just clipping a unit you hit every model in it that weapon would be extremely OP.

Wait wut?

I was playing a mate who was using one for the first time the other day. Neither of were familiar with the rules for it, and we both read it as causing as many wound to the unit as there were models in it... It blew the buggery out of a bunch of deathwing.

Its definitely only as many models as the line touches?

Also, someone brought it up earlier, but I didn't see an answer - I presume you do coversaves based on LoS from the gun itself rather than the origin pointm correct?

Eeps wrote:Also, someone brought it up earlier, but I didn't see an answer - I presume you do coversaves based on LoS from the gun itself rather than the origin pointm correct?

Correct.

Eeps wrote:
Its definitely only as many models as the line touches?

Why yes me from 10 minutes ago, it certainly is as you'd know if you read the FAQ.

jy2 wrote:I think the precise phrase here is:
"anywhere within the weapon's range."
And since the codex (more specific) trumps the BRB (more general), that means:
It is not limited to the 45 deg arc because "anywhere" supercedes the more limited "45 deg arc".
The "line" does not need to be in that arc.

I don't believe the "anywhere" gives license to overrule the 45 degree arc. The "anywhere" modifies range, not angle. If the intent was to modify the angle, it would have to state an exception to the arc such as "in a 360 degree arc and anywhere within the weapon's range" or "anywhere within a 360 degree arc and in the weapon's range". They really insist on modeling for accuracy, including weapon arcs. I don't have the model, but assume, it is not mounted as a turret which they could have easily done to give it a 360 degree arc.

The death ray is mounted under the scythe in a way that it is more than feasable to have a 360 degree arc.

EDIT: Personally, the way I think it works is as it is flying above the battlefield it could easily hit the 12" away and lead the path of the beam back towards the scythe and continue under it.

I have actually changed my mind on this matter simply because I took a look at page 16 of the rulebook. While the Deathray may have a specific rule allowing it to hit any units not within LoS, nothing in it's rules overrule the section headed "OUT OF SIGHT".

It can hit the models, but you then can't resolve those hits and they are lost.

Lukus83 wrote:I have actually changed my mind on this matter simply because I took a look at page 16 of the rulebook. While the Deathray may have a specific rule allowing it to hit any units not within LoS, nothing in it's rules overrule the section headed "OUT OF SIGHT".

It can hit the models, but you then can't resolve those hits and they are lost.

Technically you just can't allocate Wounds to the unit and the Wound Pool is lost.

Well yes...the point remains the same though. Cheers for putting it more eloquently than I.

Bloodfever wrote:The death ray is mounted under the scythe in a way that it is more than feasable to have a 360 degree arc.

EDIT: Personally, the way I think it works is as it is flying above the battlefield it could easily hit the 12" away and lead the path of the beam back towards the scythe and continue under it.

Well, except for the hoses that should be glued making it unable to pivot.

Happyjew wrote:

Lukus83 wrote:I have actually changed my mind on this matter simply because I took a look at page 16 of the rulebook. While the Deathray may have a specific rule allowing it to hit any units not within LoS, nothing in it's rules overrule the section headed "OUT OF SIGHT".

It can hit the models, but you then can't resolve those hits and they are lost.

Technically you just can't allocate Wounds to the unit and the Wound Pool is lost.

Wow....Excellent find, that really changes the way I have been seeing it played, though honestly it just makes more sense that way. Now can someone find a definition of it's fireing arce? Or did GW also forget that?

Red Corsair wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

Lukus83 wrote:I have actually changed my mind on this matter simply because I took a look at page 16 of the rulebook. While the Deathray may have a specific rule allowing it to hit any units not within LoS, nothing in it's rules overrule the section headed "OUT OF SIGHT".

It can hit the models, but you then can't resolve those hits and they are lost.

Technically you just can't allocate Wounds to the unit and the Wound Pool is lost.

Wow....Excellent find, that really changes the way I have been seeing it played, though honestly it just makes more sense that way. Now can someone find a definition of it's fireing arce? Or did GW also forget that?

Well, it's not a turret weapon...and it's not a sponson weapon. But, that also leaves it up to the players to interpret "place a marker anywhere in the weapons range". Well, the weapons range is 12". It doesn't mention anything about needing to be in it's firing arc. Firing arc has no bearing on range, only LOS.

Kevin949 wrote:

Red Corsair wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

Lukus83 wrote:I have actually changed my mind on this matter simply because I took a look at page 16 of the rulebook. While the Deathray may have a specific rule allowing it to hit any units not within LoS, nothing in it's rules overrule the section headed "OUT OF SIGHT".

It can hit the models, but you then can't resolve those hits and they are lost.

Technically you just can't allocate Wounds to the unit and the Wound Pool is lost.

Wow....Excellent find, that really changes the way I have been seeing it played, though honestly it just makes more sense that way. Now can someone find a definition of it's fireing arce? Or did GW also forget that?

Well, it's not a turret weapon...and it's not a sponson weapon. But, that also leaves it up to the players to interpret "place a marker anywhere in the weapons range". Well, the weapons range is 12". It doesn't mention anything about needing to be in it's firing arc. Firing arc has no bearing on range, only LOS.

This is true, but the implications are what I am interested in. Sure, due to vague wording on range you can place it behind the model, but if it is not in LoS according to the models arc then the shot is meaningless due to the 'out of sight' rule. It's a silly situation, I would assume it has a hull mounting looking at the model, but I am sure there are arguments that would arise. As you said, through process of elimination; it's not turret or a sponson and I would add it clearly is not pintle mounted so that leaves hull mounted off the top of my head. This would give it a fixed 45 degrees to trace it's line through. To me this makes much more sense conceptually and was probably the intention. Still a very gross weapon but it will require more thought in regards to models placement.

Very true, and I personally play it where the initial point has to be within the firing arc of the weapon. It simply makes sense. I think their intention (though not realized by the rule) was to show it as the death ray firing as the flyer zooms by (mid-flight shot, so to speak). But, as I and you said, that's not really supported by the rules now.

Well for what its worth the night scythe mentions that its Tesla Destructor is turret mounted in the fluff. They seemed to have forgoten most other weapons LOS and arcs in the book as well including the Ghost Ark Gauss arrays (which did get FAQ'ed), the Monoliths Particle Whip, and its flux arcs.

Not saying that its absolutly right but I'd let an opponent shoot behind the Doom scythe based on the wording and its a "possible turret based weapon"

Camarodragon wrote:Well for what its worth the night scythe mentions that its Tesla Destructor is turret mounted in the fluff. They seemed to have forgoten most other weapons LOS and arcs in the book as well including the Ghost Ark Gauss arrays (which did get FAQ'ed), the Monoliths Particle Whip, and its flux arcs.

Not saying that its absolutly right but I'd let an opponent shoot behind the Doom scythe based on the wording and its a "possible turret based weapon"

Thanks for the find, but this doesn't do us any good really. Heres my reasoning anyway;

1. It's the fluff section.
2. It's the NS fluff description not the DS.
3. It's a separate gun entirely to the deathray issue.
4. The models in each case doesn't actually sport a turret mounting.

So going by the way the model is designed and assembled I think our only option is a hull mounting for both weapons, which gives it a 45 degree firing arc.

Personally, I think they should put a data card in the model kit like they used to, which clears this crap up.

Red Corsair wrote:

Camarodragon wrote:Well for what its worth the night scythe mentions that its Tesla Destructor is turret mounted in the fluff. They seemed to have forgoten most other weapons LOS and arcs in the book as well including the Ghost Ark Gauss arrays (which did get FAQ'ed), the Monoliths Particle Whip, and its flux arcs.

Not saying that its absolutly right but I'd let an opponent shoot behind the Doom scythe based on the wording and its a "possible turret based weapon"

Thanks for the find, but this doesn't do us any good really. Heres my reasoning anyway;

1. It's the fluff section.
2. It's the NS fluff description not the DS.
3. It's a separate gun entirely to the deathray issue.
4. The models in each case doesn't actually sport a turret mounting.

So going by the way the model is designed and assembled I think our only option is a hull mounting for both weapons, which gives it a 45 degree firing arc.

Personally, I think they should put a data card in the model kit like they used to, which clears this crap up.

Or just add that one little line in the codex...you know, the sensible thing.

Ha ha, so true!

Hmm, this is really interesting.

I tend to agree that the first point must be placed int he weapons arc of fire, and as GW have repeatedly said, "play the model as it is modeled" and the gun is certainly fixed forward (having made dozens of the damned things! haha) I think that that is a very reasonable ruling. It isn't clear at all, this is GW, but I am leaning towards that interpretation.

Now, do we call this a beam weapon? It certainly behaves as such. That would mean it wouldn't be able to Snap fire (which it can't now) but that it also can't fire at other Flyers, which is pretty awesome.

I think both of those rulings would go a long way to reigning this units in and I believe there is a good case to be made for it in the rules, as well.

Reecius wrote:Hmm, this is really interesting.

I tend to agree that the first point must be placed int he weapons arc of fire, and as GW have repeatedly said, "play the model as it is modeled" and the gun is certainly fixed forward (having made dozens of the damned things! haha) I think that that is a very reasonable ruling. It isn't clear at all, this is GW, but I am leaning towards that interpretation.

Now, do we call this a beam weapon? It certainly behaves as such. That would mean it wouldn't be able to Snap fire (which it can't now) but that it also can't fire at other Flyers, which is pretty awesome.

I think both of those rulings would go a long way to reigning this units in and I believe there is a good case to be made for it in the rules, as well.

Nothing in the FAQ or rulebook gives it the "beam" type, so it's not that even though it behaves somewhat similarly.

GW really needs a FAQ on this issue.. Priority #1. I just picked one up yesterday but dont even want to play it becasue its so mucked up.

As far as shooting it at other flyers .. I would let my opponent shoot at other flyers but the ray only hits other flyers then. Not targets on the ground. If he wants to hit stuff on the ground, it does not hit flyers. Its like a beam weapon, but it doesnt use beam rules. It doesnt create a wall of death that chops through everything from the ground to the upper atmosphere.. I think this is the sensible way to play it and I think most TO's would agree.

What's not to like about Codex:Necron, both playing with and against (very competitive). But back to topic. I do believe the Death ray still has issues:

References: Codex:Necrons: p.50; FAQ Necrons 6Ed, V1: p.1, p.4.
Death ray rule:
"To fire the death ray, nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within the weapon's range, then nominate a second point with in 3D6" of the first. Then, draw a straight line between the two points. Every unit (friendly or enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line…"

I believe we need to consider a few key words in the Death ray's very unique rule, as it gives permission to ignore certain BRB restrictions (automatic hits, targeting units, multiple targets, etc), but not others. The game system has restrictions, and requires specific permissions to ignore these restrictions.

1. The first key word is "nominate". "...nominate a point...then nominate a second point...". Nominations are not automatic, so this means you may select a point, but the selection isn't automatically valid. What would cause the "nominated point" selection to be invalid? BRB restrictions would invalidate the "nominated point" selection: such as night fighting, LOS, weapon's arc...etc. So, the Death ray rule does not give permission to ignore BRB restrictions on how to "nominate" both points for determining the straight line.

2. The second key word is "point". To "nominate a point" is not selecting a unit. This rule gives permission to ignore the BRB restriction of selecting a "unit" as a target. Paraphrasing, "Drawing a line and units under the line are hit" is significant as the weapon is not targeting a unit, but units under the line suffer hits. Again, this gives permission to ignore the BRB restriction of "targeting a unit".

3. The rule is worded in a manner that is very difficult to implement in a 3D environment as it refers to two points and a straight line.

a. First, the weapon is being fired from a flyer, so it is coming from an elevated position. Since this rule is so different from the BRB shooting restrictions, it gives permission to ignore many of them. The target is "a point on the battlefield" implies a point "on" the table and not "above" the table. Then combine "draw a straight line between the two points" implies a 2D line "on" the table. Therefore, "underneath the line" implies only models on the ground, not models on an elevated stand: i.e. flyers, skimmers, etc. I do not think this is the intent, just that it implies this through the wording.

b. Second, if the intent was to allow targeting of models above the table, the wording should include the 3rd dimension, replacing "underneath the line" with "in the vertical plane of the line". This is probably the intent. I imagine implementing the Death ray as a beam projecting forward level with the flyer, to the maximum distance (starting point + 3D6"), then projecting downward to the starting point. This would create a 3D plane of the starting point+3D6" to the starting point and upward to the level of the flyer. I do wish they provided examples of implementing special rules.

4. How does the Death Ray interact with Skyfire, Snapshots and the effect on flyers/non-flyers? Lots of discussion on this one. Before I continue, an updated FAQ is essential as this weapon is so unique. 6Ed introduced flyers, Skyfire, and Snapshots after Codex:Necron's release and the FAQ 6Ed V1 glossed over this weapon. Until updated, I do believe there needs to be specific permission to ignore BRB restrictions.

a. Flyers are required to state if they are using Skyfire or not prior to firing, and the Death ray rule does not give specific permission to ignore this restriction. The Doom Scythe must declare to use Skyfire or not.

b. If you specify Skyfire, you are "targeting" flyer units at normal BS and "targeting" ground units with Snapshot, or vice versa without Skyfire. The Skyfire rule does not restrict a unit from firing, it restricts the BS the attacker can use when targeting units.

c. The only requirement to fire the Death ray is to nominate two points, that's it. If those two points meet BRB restrictions, the Death ray fires, and models underneath the line are hit. BS is not used and units are not targets.

d. Skyfire only effects BS when targeting a unit; the Death ray doesn't use BS nor does it target units; so, the Death ray rule gives permission to ignore the Skyfire restriction. However, the Tesla destructor rule has no permission to ignore the Skyfire restriction, therefore, the Skyfire restriction applies to the Tesla destructor. Therefore, both flyers and ground units are hit simultaneously by the Death ray (as I believe the intent is 3b above).

e. Since the Skyfire restriction is ignored by the Death ray, the Snapshot restriction of Skyfire is also ignored. Either the whole restriction is enforced or none of it is enforced.

5. LOS, Night Fighting, and Weapon arcs are all BRB restrictions. The Death ray's nominated points must comply with these restrictions (and any other BRB restrictions effecting nominating these points), or the Death ray can't be fired.

Very thorough and well put out analysis. I would agree with just about everything, although my opinion on their intent varies a little but that is just another reason why a FAQ is so necessary as you pointed out.

I disagree with your 4D statement. Skyfire does NOT mention targeting nor does snap shots. Snap shot says you can not fire a weapon that doesn't use BS as a snap shot and skyfire states that the all shots (against non flyer/FMC/Skimmer) are resolved as snap shots (if skyfiring and the line crosses over ground units). Since it does not use BS you "cannot" resolve the attack as a snap shot.

But I honestly do not want to get into this argument again with someone else. Look for the thread "can flyers hit two different targets" or something like that and view the circular argument there. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/469677.page

Also, nightfighting will NEVER be an issue since the death ray (and 99% of the necron shooting attacks) do not go above 36" range.

Oh also, you're forgetting that the rule says to draw a STRAIGHT line, and if flyers are above the battlefield and ground units are on the battlefield, how are you proposing it is a straight line if you curve it up to hit a flyer and back down to hit ground units (since you seem to flip between 2d and 3d space)

this needs to be said...
if you Select to have skyfire in affect for the turn, you can hit Skimmers as well... its in the skyfire rule..