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 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
One chapter, that did not succeed. So in the almost 10,000yrs since, where have all the Wolves gone?

Killed by Thousand Sons at Prospero and in the following years?

I don't think you are reading the details at hand here.

At the end of the Battle of the Fang, the number of Wolves is stated to be something over 2200 present at the memorial services. This is minus the decimated great company that defended the Fang and another great company that was left behind to finish cleansing Gangava. Now you need to note that this number is 1000yrs AFTER Prospero, the Horus Heresy, the Great Scouring, and the creation/demise of the Wolf Brothers successor.

So from the year 32k until present time, where are all the Wolves?

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:So from the year 32k until present time, where are all the Wolves?

9,000 years sounds like sufficient time to kill off plenty of wolves.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
I don't think you are reading the details at hand here.

At the end of the Battle of the Fang, the number of Wolves is stated to be something over 2200 present at the memorial services. This is minus the decimated great company that defended the Fang and another great company that was left behind to finish cleansing Gangava. Now you need to note that this number is 1000yrs AFTER Prospero, the Horus Heresy, the Great Scouring, and the creation/demise of the Wolf Brothers successor.

So from the year 32k until present time, where are all the Wolves?

I'm not seeing the issue you are.

A bit over two thousand Wolves is what that number implies.

Okay? And? I always believed that the Space Wolves had greater numbers than the typical Codex chapters, albeit not as many as the Black Templars.

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
Yeah wolves lost alot of marines at prospero if what i heard was right excuse me if im not havent personaly read the book.. the wolves had ALOT of help and would have died if they didnt have assistance against the smallest legion no less.

Well lets see. We have a civilian story teller give crdit to the sisters of Silence in Prospero Burns for the Wolves not dieing. Then in A Thousand Sons we have Magnus saying that there were not enough sisters of silence to matter. I know who I'm listening to.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
Me too
Fact: Russ can't be bullied, on that I'm certain, because no one is more headstrong than him....I mean he punched the Emperor after he was separating him from Horus :-)
I'm not denying Guiliman and the rest of the chapters would kill them...but Guiliman isn't mad attacking SW also....

Are you suggesting that Leman Russ would bring his legion into certain doom over a book Guilliman wrote? I mean, it isn't so much Leman Russ being afraid of Guilliman, it's a matter of not being a frothing idiot, which he wasn't, seeing as he conceded and did split his chapter/create successor chapters.

This is not quite correct. Dividing your Legion into sperate fighting forces who both do not listen to the Codex Astartes is very different then simple "Compermises".

That and you have it backwards. The IoM not fighting the SWs was one of Guilliman's great successes. Consider that he forced Dorn to accept the codex but did not try it with Russ. This shows and supports Russ being included in the "Dauntless Few". Guilliman, understood Russ well enough to know that Russ would not take to being forced into doing something unless the Emperor said it. Against Dorn, Guilliman could force the issue and win without blood loss. Against Russ he knew it was a fool's errend and didn't even try.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Are you suggesting that Leman Russ would bring his legion into certain doom over a book Guilliman wrote? I mean, it isn't so much Leman Russ being afraid of Guilliman, it's a matter of not being a frothing idiot, which he wasn't, seeing as he conceded and did split his chapter/create successor chapters.

Which part of "do the right thing, come Hell or high waters" did you not understand?
Not that I agree that just after the Heresy it would have been certain doom at all. Russ conceded and split his Legion *once* not to appease Guilliman, but to save the nascent Imperium from a second, civil war which it would never have been able to recover from.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

I can't really recall what Index Astartes states, but I know the Space Marines codex states the Ultramarines had the most victories short of the Luna Wolves, and I know varying BL books seem to honestly imply a not too signifigant difference between most of the legions in terms of compliances/conquers (Luna Wolves 1st, Word Bearers last, is all that is definite).

Wrong. They had the most worlds brought into compliance. IIRC, it also states that Guilliman was the most able at bringing worlds into the Imperium through diplomacy rather than violence. Where military victories are concerned, however, the tally is as Darth Marko stated: Horus, Johnson, Russ; in that order. It's one of the reasons for the rivalry between Johnson and Russ, both of whom were very glory-hungry. (Out of the rivalry grew respect, and eventually the two became close friends, but that's not terribly relevant here - or is it?)

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The fact that he had essentially become the de facto leader of the Imperium's military forces post-Heresy, lol?

Yeah, there's no evidence for Leman Russ's reaction towards the Codex Astartes, last I checked, but he did, in fact, relinquish his legion to have successor chapters made.

Errr, this was before that had been decided. Just after the Heresy, when everything was still in flux, the Emperor had just died and no one had really gotten over the shock of the Warmaster's treachery yet. Nothing was certain.
Russ and Dorn both vehemently opposed the Codex Astartes, I think Johnson did as well, but he was busy blowing his home planet to smithereens, so I doubt he was very involved in the debate. Even if he wasn't opposed to the Codex in principle, he'd be more likely to side with Russ, as the two were close friends. I don't know where Corax, Vulkan and Jaghatai stood on the matter (and Corax and Vulkan were still busy rebuilding their Legions from the massacre at Istvaan, so their opinion wasn't really relevant.) Ferrus and Sanguinius obviously had no opinion on the matter, being dead an' all.
Actually, Russ' opposition to the Codex has been around since 2nd edition, so you need to check your facts again. And I reiterate (again): the only reason he backed down even a little (only one successor chapter) was to save the Imperium, not because he was afraid of Guilliman.
Finally, exactly how well do the Wolves follow the Codex, even to this day? Oh, right. Not at all.

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
Yeah wolves lost alot of marines at prospero if what i heard was right excuse me if im not havent personaly read the book.. the wolves had ALOT of help and would have died if they didnt have assistance against the smallest legion no less.

1.Grammar
2.You didn't read the book
3.Prospero was without orbital defences
4.TS had Tzeenchian no-limit, GOD MODE option
5.I'dont see sisters (in the book) that much (to quote T'kar), or TS deprived of the warp usage that much
6.TS are protagonist in that book, they had godlike powers (khm,Tzeechy,Tzeenchy)
7.Battle was over when Tzeench rebuked his gift, and they became regular psykers
8.You didn't read the book,so don't post conjectures based on "what you heard"....

On topic - As I said, they spearheded the great scouring, they lost the most legion there + they were small legion (fact)

Now I would say something very rude but MODS would burn me on a stake....

Also this (to quote wikia) :Leman Russ successfully shielded his own Legion from falling to this fate through sleight-of-hand. He officially broke his Legion up into 13 "Great Companies", each led by a captain called a Wolf Lord. However, the Space Wolves were accounted to be a single Chapter under the new scheme even though they were many times the size of a Codex Astartes-compliant Chapter. In this way the Space Wolves retained their original size and power in a way matched by no other Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes.

There is a problem in that over the course of the HH series a concious decision was made to bump number of Astartes in the Legions up from the general 10,000's to 100,000's.
The Space Wolves having only 1 successor chapter was conceived under the previous general Legion size (10,000), whereas it strikes me that the idea of only having a single successor may be less suitable under the enlarged Legion sizes.

Additionally, no doubt the size of the heresy-era Space Wolves will be confirmed when they get portrayed in the FW HH books.



Regarding which Legion had conquered the most worlds in the great crusade; as Void Dragon said, the HH series has stated the Luna Wolves and Ultramarines as having conquered the most. As this is newer than Index Astartes, i personally follow this belief, over the Wolves having conquered the most.

Also, if you go against 10000 psykers with no-limit option, you are dumb if you don't have counter measure...
If it were for me - I would send 3 legions on they arses....
TS were like dow2 retribution (Tzeench sorcerers) with "no cooldown" cheat...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Dave wrote:
There is a problem in that over the course of the HH series a concious decision was made to bump number of Astartes in the Legions up from the general 10,000's to 100,000's.

Regarding which Legion had conquered the most worlds in the great crusade; as Void Dragon said, the HH series has stated the Luna Wolves and Ultramarines as having conquered the most. As this is newer than Index Astartes, i personally follow this belief, over the Wolves having conquered the most.

There is also quote that Dorn had most victories and posessed a finest military mind in his time (Horus rising or False Gods, me thinks)...
So go with one you like....

 Just Dave wrote:
There is a problem in that over the course of the HH series a concious decision was made to bump number of Astartes in the Legions up from the general 10,000's to 100,000's.
The Space Wolves having only 1 successor chapter was conceived under the previous general Legion size (10,000), whereas it strikes me that the idea of only having a single successor may be less suitable under the enlarged Legion sizes.

Additionally, no doubt the size of the heresy-era Space Wolves will be confirmed when they get portrayed in the FW HH books.



Regarding which Legion had conquered the most worlds in the great crusade; as Void Dragon said, the HH series has stated the Luna Wolves and Ultramarines as having conquered the most. As this is newer than Index Astartes, i personally follow this belief, over the Wolves having conquered the most.

The HH is so stupidly terribad, I do not accept it as a credible source of background material, and that change is definitely one of them. Also, the UM brought the most worlds in to compliance *without conflict*. That means that of the worlds "conquered" by the UM, a significant amount would have to be taken off to get Guilliman's number of military victories, which could (and according to background, does) bring him below the Dark Angels and Space Wolves.

Bran Dawri wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
There is a problem in that over the course of the HH series a concious decision was made to bump number of Astartes in the Legions up from the general 10,000's to 100,000's.
The Space Wolves having only 1 successor chapter was conceived under the previous general Legion size (10,000), whereas it strikes me that the idea of only having a single successor may be less suitable under the enlarged Legion sizes.

Additionally, no doubt the size of the heresy-era Space Wolves will be confirmed when they get portrayed in the FW HH books.



Regarding which Legion had conquered the most worlds in the great crusade; as Void Dragon said, the HH series has stated the Luna Wolves and Ultramarines as having conquered the most. As this is newer than Index Astartes, i personally follow this belief, over the Wolves having conquered the most.

The HH is so stupidly terribad, I do not accept it as a credible source of background material, and that change is definitely one of them. Also, the UM brought the most worlds in to compliance *without conflict*. That means that of the worlds "conquered" by the UM, a significant amount would have to be taken off to get Guilliman's number of military victories, which could (and according to background, does) bring him below the Dark Angels and Space Wolves.

I disagree. I don't see the largest - and arguably best organised - Legion having conquered the most worlds as "terribad" at all.
Additionally, I don't see the need to differentiate - at least negatively - between the number of worlds brought to compliance with or without conflict. Indeed those brought to compliance without conflict are potentially more valuable; quite probably being more loyal and possessing a more intact infrastructure and military.

The conquest numbers for the Legions are off somewhat. We know that all Primarchs did not have the same amount of time and resources to do their thing.

For example Horus not only started very early in the crusade but also had a huge expedition fleet but also the Emperor, other Primarchs and other pre-Primarch Legions fighting under him. That's not including special relationships with members of the Admech, legio Titanicus and Army/Navy. Now compare that to Corax who was found late in the Crusade and he realistically cannot complete. Even if he was 100X the general that Horus was. He simply does not have the time and resources to make up for those discrepancies.

Then you have to consider that all Legions were not given an even chance for glory. Look at the Iron Warriors. They were stuck doing dirty siege fights spread all across the Crusade and no daught responcible for some of the wins in Horus' "I iz Great" tally.

That being said it is foolish to believe that given time the Ultramarines would not have become the "Without a daught" strongest Legion. The fact that they had several compliances that were bloodless diplomatic successes. Does not take away from their prestige. The diplomatic successes however should not be considered when discussing only military actions. Meaning that both pieces of fluff are correct but talking about different things.

Just Dave wrote:I disagree. I don't see the largest - and arguably best organised - Legion having conquered the most worlds as "terribad" at all.
Additionally, I don't see the need to differentiate - at least negatively - between the number of worlds brought to compliance with or without conflict. Indeed those brought to compliance without conflict are potentially more valuable; quite probably being more loyal and possessing a more intact infrastructure and military.

The problem here is potentially the use of each Legion in question.

Consider that the Space Wolves are correct and get the "Dirty jobs against the targets that could not otherwise be broken". Then each one of those victories will be harder fought and bloody. Where as another Legion might see itself with "Easier" wars to fight. ("Easier" being relative of course). Then there are cases where some Legions might even be able to avoid fighting all together. meaning that all victories are not equal; Considering the fight on Prospero to be equal to diplomatically bringing a small mining world into the IoM for example. The two are not equal as military successes, even if the later helps the IoM more in the end.

Differentiating is not a bad thing as long as you are doing it for the right reasons. As in looking at "What Legion brought the most valuable worlds into the IoM". Then diplomatically bringing a small minig world into the IoM is better then scorching Prospero. Since that effectivally took a valubale world away from the IoM.

Durandal wrote:Back on topic, the UM are 450k strong, and are the largest, and if Magnus is the smallest at 10k, then you have your bounds. But it is hinted that the UM absorbed the remnants of two other legions to swell to that size, and were around 300k prior. The Luna Wolves were about 350k prior to the purge and were also one of the larger legions, so 350k seems the upper limit for a legion without any other issues.

Bran Dawri wrote:The Space Wolves were never a large Legion, the lore tells us, so they weren't as numerous as the Boys in Blue - upper limit of ~100,000.

MajorStoffer wrote:The main traitor legions, as described in that book, are from 100k to 500k, and while due to the instability of Space Wolves geneseed, I wouldn't imagine they're one of the larger legions, but they could very well be into the 100k range, though that seems not entirely likely..

I'm not sure where this massive difference in numbers is coming from. The HH books have actually been pretty consistent and the Betrayal book backs this up.

In Betrayal, the Sons of Horus, pre-heresy are listed as approx 150,000, as are the World Eaters. Both are supposed to be mid/large legions (though not the largest). A 'regular sized' legion by comparison (the Death Guard) have a strength of around 95,000 pre-heresy. The Emperor's Children, after overcoming their late start, had a strength of around 110,000.

The Ultramarines' organisation in Know No Fear states that there are 20 chapters, each of which seem to consist of ten companies of 1000 marines each. Allowing for command and auxillary staff, this would place the Ultramarines at around,say, 230,000 pre-heresy, which is consistent with everything else published (the Ultramarines being a massive legion). 230,000 certiainly allows them to have folded in a complete smaller legion or two.

So, we can guess from this that a 'standard size' Legion would be around the 100,000 mark. If the Thousand Sons really were only 10,000 strong (notably the very smallest), then we can assume that the Space Wolves numbered between 20,000 and 70,000.

I'd err on the higher side of this, since their role as executioner would be a bit pointless if they were much, much smaller than a standard Legion - they're good, but they're nor that good!

 Just Dave wrote:
[
I disagree. I don't see the largest - and arguably best organised - Legion having conquered the most worlds as "terribad" at all.
Additionally, I don't see the need to differentiate - at least negatively - between the number of worlds brought to compliance with or without conflict. Indeed those brought to compliance without conflict are potentially more valuable; quite probably being more loyal and possessing a more intact infrastructure and military.

That's not the change I meant; I was referring to the random multiplication of the numbers of marines by a factor of 10. Before the series, all Legions were in the 10,000 (average) - 20,000 (UM) size. And that's only one of the things wrong with the HH series. I've given a more expansive list in another thread, but let's leave it at that; it isn't terribly relevant to the discussion.

While I agree that a world brought into the imperium through diplomacy is better than one brought in through force, the point I was making, as already noted by stonerhino, is that assimilation through diplomacy is by definition not a military victory - it's a diplomatic one, and so should not count towards ones tally of military victories.
Hence the distinction: The UM brought more worlds into the Imperium, but the SW (and the DA) had more victories. One does not exclude the other.
One more footnote: The term "bringing a world into compliance" was also used for wiping out a potentially or actually dangerous alien civilisation which by Emperor's decree *could* not be parlayed with. Ultramar is situated in a region of the galaxy populated heavily by humans, whereas Fenris is situated much further away from major population centres (on a galactic scale, that is). Which Legion would encounter more alien, hostile civilizations than the other?

Bran Dawri wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
[
I disagree. I don't see the largest - and arguably best organised - Legion having conquered the most worlds as "terribad" at all.
Additionally, I don't see the need to differentiate - at least negatively - between the number of worlds brought to compliance with or without conflict. Indeed those brought to compliance without conflict are potentially more valuable; quite probably being more loyal and possessing a more intact infrastructure and military.

That's not the change I meant; I was referring to the random multiplication of the numbers of marines by a factor of 10. Before the series, all Legions were in the 10,000 (average) - 20,000 (UM) size. And that's only one of the things wrong with the HH series. I've given a more expansive list in another thread, but let's leave it at that; it isn't terribly relevant to the discussion.

I'm not sure if that is something that is "wrong" with the HH, as the numbers they introduce are more realistic than the original estimates of 10-20K (really, less than a quarter million dudes to conquer the galaxy? get the f out of here).

They're both equally ridiculous; 250,000 isn't enough - 2,500,000 on a galactic scale is just as ridiculous, so you might as well keep the cool numerological bits of (for instance) Magnus' Thousand Sons actually being a thousand marines.

A fleet of a quarter million marines taking system after system is certainly more believable than a mere 10,000.

His Thousand Sons have been reduced to an actual 1000 on multiple occasions. Tzeench was pruning them back on a semi-regular basis.

You seem to prefer "outright stupid" over "somewhat far-fetched". You must love Ward's contributions then.

Yeah, right. A quarter of a million marines wouldn't be enough to take present-day earth and hold it, let a lone an entire star system with an interplanetary civilization or (heaven forbid) an interstellar civilization, or multiple systems, making the nascent Imperium at the time of the Heresy an empire of 20 systems, tops.

Unless you suspend your disbelief, and at that point 10,000 super-badass supersoldiers is just as acceptable as 250,000 (they're both just numbers), so why the change? Moreover, why the arbitrary change against 20+ years of background material?
What purpose does it serve? I can come up with no good answers, hence my disregard for the HH series.

I like my myths, well, mythical. "The Thousand Sons were only ever a thousand men" is much cooler than "Yeah, they were a thousand, except they were only really a thousand when they got shafted again. And again. And again."

And no, I don;t like Ward's contributions. I could stomach a Chapter Master with much much effort and support besting an Avatar of Khaine, but single marines wandering the warp and carving their names into daemon primarch's hearts without being corrupted challenges suspension of disbelief too far.

Keep in mind that the Marines don't tend to do the 'hold' part of 'take and hold.'

Even in the Crusade when there was (in my mind) roughly double the amount of (loyal) marines as there is in the 41st millenium, they didn't do every situation you'd see a normal army doing. They were either the speartips (eg Horus), the commandos (eg Alpha Legion, Raven Guard) or simply just at the point of fiercest fighting. All the general gruntwork, true gruntwork was still done by the Imperial Army.

While, admittedly, this still really doesn't add up when you start thinking of time compared to numbers but it's not that bad...

An expeditionary fleet would certainly be enough to take Earth, undoubtedly without having to commit all but a fraction of their strength. The holding would be done by IG.

A single Wolves great company drop podding into Washington D.C. and the other major super power capitals pretty much decapitates any resistance. Then the IG come in to hold while iterators convince us all how great the Imperium of Man will be for us all.

 Omegus wrote:
An expeditionary fleet would certainly be enough to take Earth, undoubtedly without having to commit all but a fraction of their strength. The holding would be done by IG.

A [/i]fleet[i], yes. But that's the Imperial Navy doing almost all of the legwork - the marines are basically entirely superfluous at that point, and can be completely written out of the background.
And the earth's governments are generally organised too well to be decapitated by alpha strikes. Even so, occupying just the US, where everyone carries guns is a nightmare for any invader.

And furthermore, if the marines themselves are required only for the specialist roles of commando's and shock troops, 10,000 in a Legion is no longer an unreasonable number, as on any invaded planet they'd only need to be sent to break heavy resistance pockets/secure landing zones and what have you, and the bulk of forces (ie, the millions upon millions of grunts needed for galactic conquest) can be made up by the Imperial army, a task for which you wouldn't need hundreds of thousands of soldiers.
So again, why the completely arbitrary change?
(Note: as much as we're arguing about this, this is just *one* of the many issues I have with the HH series.)

The change came because it's the same with as Space Marines as with people at a party: the more the merrier!

Bran Dawri wrote:
So again, why the completely arbitrary change?

I know you clearly dislike the HH series - and you have said as much yourself - but IMHO the change is far from arbitrary.

As has been stated, 2,000,000 Marines conquering the galaxy is a lot more logical than 200,000. Even if both require a suspension of disbelief - as is common in sci-fi/fantasy settings - the increased Legion sizes is a lot more sensible and believable.

It also fits better with the modern numbers of Space Marines. In 40K there's supposed to be 1000 Chapters of 1000 Space Marines (1,000,000). If you were to take half of the Legions (loyalist), that'd be 900,000. Accounting for casualties from the HH, but then later foundings, this comes much closer to accounting for the modern numbers of Space Marines than if there only 90,000 loyalists at their peak.

Additionally, it makes the now-Chaos Space Marines a more credible threat. Lets (being very generous) say they lost only a 1/3 of their number in the heresy (although many of the Legions purged that much at Istvaan III), then that'd be only be 60,000 Traitor Marines remaining. Against the Imperium, 1,000,000 loyalist Space Marines and whatever else exists, it's hard to see that many as really that threatening IMHO.

To me, it also makes it more epic and the scale more awesome. It's also logical that the Space Marines were more numerous in their peak (the great crusade), with their Primarchs and creator around, than 10,000 years later in the degradation of the modern Imperium and it's 1000 Chapters of Marines.

Regarding the Thousand Sons: I don't mind the change their either (although it seems I'm a person much less resistant to change than many), as it still makes sense (1000 when Magnus found them or whatever) and shows how they were claimed by Tzeentch from the start (ending up with a 1000 can't be coincidence).

Yeah, sure, some changes in the HH series seem arbitrary, but when you look at this one... To me it shows that they have really thought about it, making a logical change that seems far from arbitrary. And I like that.

 Just Dave wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:
So again, why the completely arbitrary change?

I know you clearly dislike the HH series - and you have said as much yourself - but IMHO the change is far from arbitrary.

As has been stated, 2,000,000 Marines conquering the galaxy is a lot more logical than 200,000. Even if both require a suspension of disbelief - as is common in sci-fi/fantasy settings - the increased Legion sizes is a lot more sensible and believable.

It also fits better with the modern numbers of Space Marines. In 40K there's supposed to be 1000 Chapters of 1000 Space Marines (1,000,000). If you were to take half of the Legions (loyalist), that'd be 900,000. Accounting for casualties from the HH, but then later foundings, this comes much closer to accounting for the modern numbers of Space Marines than if there only 90,000 loyalists at their peak.

Additionally, it makes the now-Chaos Space Marines a more credible threat. Lets (being very generous) say they lost only a 1/3 of their number in the heresy (although many of the Legions purged that much at Istvaan III), then that'd be only be 60,000 Traitor Marines remaining. Against the Imperium, 1,000,000 loyalist Space Marines and whatever else exists, it's hard to see that many as really that threatening IMHO.

To me, it also makes it more epic and the scale more awesome. It's also logical that the Space Marines were more numerous in their peak (the great crusade), with their Primarchs and creator around, than 10,000 years later in the degradation of the modern Imperium and it's 1000 Chapters of Marines.

Regarding the Thousand Sons: I don't mind the change their either (although it seems I'm a person much less resistant to change than many), as it still makes sense (1000 when Magnus found them or whatever) and shows how they were claimed by Tzeentch from the start (ending up with a 1000 can't be coincidence).

Yeah, sure, some changes in the HH series seem arbitrary, but when you look at this one... To me it shows that they have really thought about it, making a logical change that seems far from arbitrary. And I like that.

Yeah, I've been pretty vocal about my dislike for the series recently. Chalk at least part of that up to being frustrated at being stuck in Africa for work during the holiday season. (Then again, there should be some counterweight to the legions of loyalist yes-men who gobble up all that stuff as if it was Holy Writ without so much as a critical thought - no, that sentence wasn't entirely seriously.)

That's just it, though. It was never *just* the marines doing the conquering. If it was, your point would be valid (but still 10x the number wouldn't have made enough of a difference to make it remotely believable). There was also the Imperial Navy, with its thousands upond thousands of ships, the Imperial Army with its untold millions (billions?) of Guardsmen who, like the grunts they are (and like the IG does now!), would have done the brunt of the legwork, while, as described above, the Marines were necessary to secure beachheads and break enemy strongpoints or end stalemates. Basically, all the specialist jobs that can't be solved by throwing more men at it.
At that point, 10,000 to 20,000 marines per Legion becomes a lot less unbelievable/unlikely.

Second, in 10,000 years it's entirely possible to grow the number of marines to 1,000,000 from the leftovers of the Heresy. The traitors themselves aren't without reinforcements either; Fabius Bile has reputedly found out how to create new marines from the progenoid gland, and whole Chapters have gone over to Chaos in the 10 millennia since the heresy including their means for marine reproduction, so it's entirely possible that traitor marine numbers have swollen, too.
A second (separate) counterargument is that it's a much more powerful statement about the Imperium's decay if 1,000,000 modern-day marines are so much weaker than the heroes that went before them in the Crusade and the Heresy that even with less than a 10th of their number, the Chaos Marines are still very much a threat.
Finally, the almost the entirety of the Traitor Marine strength is concentrated in the Eye of Terror, whereas the loyalist chapters are scattered throughout the galaxy. Concentration of forces is a very powerful equaliser when outnumbered.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Guilliman might not be capable of besting Leman Russ in a brawl, but in a war, with the full backing of the rest of the Imperium, the Ultramarines would unceremoniously crush the Space Wolves, be real here.

Pretty much.

The Ultramarines were upwards of ten times larger than the Space Wolves, with a ridiculous amount of assets.


I tend to agree with the 20-30,000 assessment, and the losses at Prospero and the Scouring dwindling their strength down to less than 10,000 by the 2nd Founding. Fighting the Thousand Sons, on their home turf, had to have caused staggering casualties to the Space Wolves. And the fact that they only divided once pretty much confirms that. The Space Wolves would have always been hampered by only recruiting from Fenris, where as the other Legions were all using many, many worlds to do it. Except the Ultramarines, who were using hundreds, lol.

Ok the SW had the 3rd highest victories according to older Fluff, just behind the DA, the boys in blue were not top 3.

secondly the HH vision artboooks have Ulras as the largest with 250,000 marines pre heresy. The average was 100,000 with the smallest being the Sallies and not the 1000sone (the sallies were small at 30,000,) the wolves were average, it says they were not the largest but it never states they were the smallest either.

Remember Russ was not the only one opposed to the Codex ideas of 1000 marines, dorn was its strongest opponent so in essence if all the other Primarchs had said screw you Girlyman and ur book what could Gullaman do? Force them? I dont think he could afford that war, win or lose he would still be the loser and the Imperiam would be worse off.

Just be glad Russ gave in enough to stop that.

as for the successor chapter he made, why did it suffer so much gentic instability? One theory is to placate Guillaman and show he was doing his part russ unknown to Gullaman just put all the unstable marines in the ill fated wolf brothers. In essesnce it was a cull of the more unstable marines (genitically)

Also as far as prospero was concerned the SW one, its that simple. As to arguments about them needing help thats obvious as you cant fight a legion that consist entirly of Pyskers without needed something to counter it. Just think even the lowest ranking Librarion could best a normal SM.

 beef wrote:
Ok the SW had the 3rd highest victories according to older Fluff, just behind the DA, the boys in blue were not top 3.

There are so many different versions of the old fluff on this matter. You're just picking the one you like the best.

Remember Russ was not the only one opposed to the Codex ideas of 1000 marines, dorn was its strongest opponent so in essence if all the other Primarchs had said screw you Girlyman and ur book what could Gullaman do? Force them? I dont think he could afford that war, win or lose he would still be the loser and the Imperiam would be worse off.

Just be glad Russ gave in enough to stop that.

Guilliman gave up more power than all the other primarchs combined. Russ and Dorn were just throwing tantrums. See how easily that can be turned on its head?

And yeah, Guilliman could have forced them. He had more Space Marines than the rest of the Primarchs together, he had the support of some of his brothers, and he was the High Commander of the Imperial forces at the time which means he had the whole Navy and Army. If Russ "gave in" it was because he realized he had no choice. Not because he was saving the Imperium from another civil war. The Space Wolves would have been crushed quickly.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Guilliman might not be capable of besting Leman Russ in a brawl, but in a war, with the full backing of the rest of the Imperium, the Ultramarines would unceremoniously crush the Space Wolves, be real here.

Pretty much.

The Ultramarines were upwards of ten times larger than the Space Wolves, with a ridiculous amount of assets.

I tend to agree with the 20-30,000 assessment, and the losses at Prospero and the Scouring dwindling their strength down to less than 10,000 by the 2nd Founding. Fighting the Thousand Sons, on their home turf, had to have caused staggering casualties to the Space Wolves. And the fact that they only divided once pretty much confirms that. The Space Wolves would have always been hampered by only recruiting from Fenris, where as the other Legions were all using many, many worlds to do it. Except the Ultramarines, who were using hundreds, lol.

Again, I don't remember seeing anywhere that states that the UM were 'ten times' bigger than the Space Wolves. I think 30,000 is on the small side, but then we're just randomly picking figures out of the air at the moment.

beef wrote:secondly the HH vision artboooks have Ulras as the largest with 250,000 marines pre heresy. The average was 100,000 with the smallest being the Sallies and not the 1000sone (the sallies were small at 30,000,) the wolves were average, it says they were not the largest but it never states they were the smallest either.

The Salamanders have been stated to be the smallest Legion (can't remember where, though). Can you state where it says they were 30,000 strong? We know from 'A Thousand Sons' that the Thousand Sons used to be composed of 10 Brotherhoods, and that the loss of 900 marines in one of the brotherhoods 'effectively wiped them out', which suggests that Brotherhoods are about 1000 marines each. That puts the Thousand Sons at roughly 9000 marines. If the Salamanders really were the smallest Legion, they'd have to be smaller than that?

The Space Wolves split twice. The Ultramarines split more than twenty times. So yeah, while the Space Wolves split into somewhat larger than 1000 Marined, yeah, that's roughly ten times the size. It's pretty simple math.

Remember, we're talking about Post Heresy numbers, not Pre-Heresy. At any Legion size, the only one that mattered in context was how many of them were left after the Heresy and Scouring, not how many they had at their height. Going toe to toe with the Thousand Sons, on the Thousand Sons homeworld, is almost guaranteed to have bled them pretty heavily.

And that's by the outdated numbers, lol. At this point, the Space Wolves could number less than 5,000 by the end of the Scouring to have split only twice, and then the Ultramarines are something like twenty five times larger.