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Ahh, I see what you mean. Yeah, Saint =/= Living Saint, but I do see the mix-up come up regularly, so no worries.

Whether it might happen or not ... I suppose that depends on what we think a Living Saint actually is. So far I'm aware of four different theories:

a) Living Saints are just what it says on the tin - holy angels conjured by divine magic.
b) Living Saints are a psychic manifestation of the Emperor's will, empowering one of his subjects.
c) Living Saints are, in laymen's terms, "Daemons of Order": benign Warp spirits called into existence by the emotions of collective faith, possessing one of the most faithful at the moment of death, then assuming their identity.
d) Living Saints actually don't exist. What we get to play on the TT is "the legend" as seen by the people within the setting, just like the other characters.

But further discussion on this would be something for a separate topic, methinks, as much as I like to talk about it.

 Lynata wrote:
Also, I don't actually think the Primarchs were -that- good ... *ducks*

I SAW THAT RRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

How good do like to picture them, out of curiosity?

I tend to discard what I don't like about 5e Necrons (Tome of Fate fluff is my favoritest Necron fluff in that it adequately takes the good of both the old and new and meshes them), and I am working on my own concept for Draigo that I prefer to the current, for use as the future endgame of a Black Crusade campaign (I like to re-envision some of his prior to Warp exploits as tales of hard-fought heroism requiring a great deal of blood, sweat, and sacrifice to pull off, particularly the Mortarion battle. And I like to think that, when he was pulled into the Warp, to survive, he opened his mind and soul to the Emperor's light, so his body could act as a catalyst for the Emperor's own power in the fight against Chaos. But this action burned away all of his former being and his very mind, making him an unthinking, unfeeling drone, who just roams the Warp smashing down the Realms of Chaos, unable to be bargained or reasoned with, a M'kaechan discovered. He is an abomination in a realm of pure change, a fixed point whose very footsteps stagnate the universe around him, half the flow of Chaos, suffocating those that reside in the Warp by forcing order into their natural disorder. Basically, Chaos's own personal Cthulhu. Still a work in progress).

Hm... I like to ignore the fact that Tyranids fleets fight and eat eachother (and I guess it hasn't been said in a bit, but hasn't been retconned). I like to think that they flow together seemlessly and don't fight, as they're under one command.

Oh, and the fact that Loken was bought back to life. It ruined him... same as the Death of Superman. And... the way I interpret it, Draigo, with a host of Paladins, fought through Mortarions guards, and in the battle managed to strike Mortarion, peircing one of his hearts. The Daemon Primarch then retreated, but is obviously not dead. No "Draigo held him still while he drew out a Fountain pen and carefully engraved his masters name, holding up an old check to make sure he got the signature right". One does not tackle a Daemon Primarch! Especially Mortarion... after Nurgles blessings, you've got to figure he's one of the larger Primarchs still left...

Void__Dragon wrote:How good do like to picture them, out of curiosity?

That's an interesting question ... I suppose I do well consider them "humanity's best", as far as warriors go. Their physique is without equal and they seem to come with considerable charisma and/or leadership skills, otherwise they would not have risen to the positions they were found in. Still, they are mortal beings, and can be felled by a skilled opponent just like anyone. No bolter-proof skin, no lightning-quick movement. After all, the Dark Angels' background seems to imply that young El'Jonson and young Luther (even before being astartified) were not that far apart, and Rogal Dorn died fighting what seems to have been "ordinary" CSM or even normal humans...

In short: Superior men, but not Supermen.

I dunno, but when reading threads/posts about the Primarchs, it just so often seems as if most people regard them as semi-invul demi-gods who can only be threatened by someone from their own ranks. Such an interpretation, however, would be too far removed from my own taste of realism. There are no invincible superheroes in "my" 40k, just like there is no divine magic or an actual (non-AI) Machine Spirit. Everything is science, superstition or a psychic power, and everyone can be injured by anybody, circumstances permitting.

The Leman Russ isn't armoured with just plain old steel.

FW will never live that one down.

Also, the riveted armour on Imperial vehicles is an ablative layer designed to protect against high-energy weapons, with the main hull being properly welded together. Space Marine vehicles largely lack this layer, hence lower armour values in TT.

 Lynata wrote:
That's an interesting question ... I suppose I do well consider them "humanity's best", as far as warriors go. Their physique is without equal and they seem to come with considerable charisma and/or leadership skills, otherwise they would not have risen to the positions they were found in. Still, they are mortal beings, and can be felled by a skilled opponent just like anyone. No bolter-proof skin, no lightning-quick movement. After all, the Dark Angels' background seems to imply that young El'Jonson and young Luther (even before being astartified) were not that far apart, and Rogal Dorn died fighting what seems to have been "ordinary" CSM or even normal humans...

I dunno, but when reading threads/posts about the Primarchs, it just so often seems as if most people regard them as semi-invul demi-gods who can only be threatened by someone from their own ranks. Such an interpretation, however, would be too far removed from my own taste of realism. There are no invincible superheroes in "my" 40k, just like there is no divine magic or an actual (non-AI) Machine Spirit. Everything is science, superstition or a psychic power, and everyone can be injured by anybody, circumstances permitting.

But similarly, in Index Astartes, Angron, as a baby, massacres a group of Eldar sent to kill him. Konrad Curze survives being sent to the planet's core, Leman Russ landed inside a volcano. Ferrus Manus fought what was probably a Necron construct barehanded and held it down in the mouth of a volcano until it died. Magnus was an enormous giant beyond even the Primarchs in stature, who, beside being an incredible psyker, could put his fist into Leman Russ's breastplate and punch holes through his heart. The circumstances of Dorn's death are unknown. Luther required a very generous doping on Chaos to be the Lion's equal in combat. The 6e codex explicitly likens their power towards that of the Emperor.

The nigh-invulnerable demigods interpretation does have a basis is all I am saying, and note that all I have said is GW fluff, not BL.

Ah, but I've fact-checked all of this in the Index Astartes and ..

- Angron was not "a baby" when he was attacked by what "Imperial scholars believe" to be Eldar. At least the IA does not mention it. What it does mention is that he was sent straight to the gladiator pits as a slave warrior, and I don't imagine people would throw a toddler in there. Not even one found surrounded by (possible) Eldar corpses. Furthermore, the article notes that "the legend of Angron is incomplete" and how "the true facts are impossible to discern from legend".

- Konrad Curze's embryonic form supposedly "descended from the heavens in a crackling ball of light" which is then said to have smashed through almost half the planet. I'm kind of tempted to call BS on it right there, but even assuming that this is true and Nostramo was penetrated in this incredibly violent manner, I would interpret the crackling ball of light to have been some sort of high-tech preservation pod, or perhaps the Chaos Gods' dark magic. Whatever the case, I am fairly certain it was not just the embryo.

- With Ferrus Manus' story, I am willing to believe that the creature was indeed a Necron construct, even though the bit about "remnants of a forgotten age" could just as well hint at the Dark Age of Technology and some rogue AI. Either way, the bit about "fighting the creature for days on end" and "across continents and seas" is where my suspension of disbelief breaks again and I'll just label the story a product of folklore and distorted legend. I'm sure that as with all folklore there is some truth to it, but I'm saying that at least half of it is made up, twisted by countless retellings from one clan sage to another.
I mean, honestly, do you expect me to believe Ferrus Manus actually, truthfully carried an entire mountain on his back from one island to another, because he wanted to troll a "storm giant"?

- About Magnus versus Russ, I could not find any such details like those you mentioned in the article. However, I did notice how the accounts of their duel are unanimously labeled as "contradicting each other dramatically". Especially the Space Wolves version is, even within the setting, facing criticism regardings its versimilitude. Not surprising, given how it is said to be "oral tradition", and I'm sure we all know how Vikings liked to tell their tales.

- The exact circumstances of Dorn's death are indeed unknown, but dying during a simple boarding action still stands in stark contrast to most of the other Primarch's fates. What sort of resistance would you assume he could have faced?

- As for Luther, I was not referring to his duel with El'Jonson, and not even to when he was made a Space Marine. I was talking about the time before the Emperor arrived, when he and the Lion were just two warriors in a knightly Order.


Yes, the interpretation does have a basis, but it is not factual accounts. Rather legends, myths and folklore, as I've been saying. And I choose to regard them as such instead of taking everything for having happened in exactly that way.
At least I assume that this is what GW intended, too.

If I would take everything at face value, then I'd also have to accept the existence of divine magic. Yet I do not believe that gods actually exist in 40k. It is all just in the Warp.

Wolf Cavalry does not exist in my world.
Neither does the HH series.

The Emperor is not dead and the failing golden throne will finally set him free.

The webway gates were fixed along time ago.

Old Gil is healing in the stasis field and Dorn and the wolf are not dead. (why should nearly all the loyal sons be dead and most the traitors still alive)

And last but not least as for mentioned, the mechanicum are still recovering lost tech.

Minor retcon:

The necrons didn't wipe out all of the c'tan. The Void Dragon went into hiding on Mars and is the real Omnissiah.

GW had hinted at this with the HH:Mechanicum book; but the latest necron codex all but removed that as a possibility.

I like to believe that higher up SM, like veteran rank upwards, have full knowledge of the GK, such as chapter masters being able to to call them for aid, but lower ranked SM will just be told that they're just not very codex adherent. Also higher up Imperial officers will be allowed to know about the GK too, not killed, not mind wiped, allowed to know.
I also don't like the idea of Inquisitors commandeering an entire SM chapter, I like to think that he asks the chapter master very nicely if he'll help him out, asking super nice to the older chapters, and pretty much begging any first founding.
Now, as an Ultramarine player, I like to believe that the Codex Astartes is a book of tactics to be interpreted, not followed to the letter. I like how Captain Titus says it, not how it's shown by some people. Examples for this being Tyrannic War Veterans.
I also have this theory that the Hive Mind is kind of like a Chaos God from another galaxy, the Warp is different depending on the area of real space that you're in, and the Hive Mind is a Warp conciousness from another galaxy coming our way. Tyranids can also still use the Warp.
And even though most people have forgotten it, I still believe that Tau Ethereals were genetically engineered by the Eldar for some reason.

No Buca, just no. The grunts just ain't told everything. That's the strength and weakness of the IOM. But to a degree I agree with you. At least to the first point. I'm damn tired of the Grey Knights being even more frakking secretive than the Dark Angels, and they have a network of informers for the Fallen, so knowledge of them ain't an automatic death sentence. But a Chapter Master and the higher ups especially amongst the Librarians shall have knowledge as I sort of think for logical reasons the Librarians are sent to Titan for the final testing and such.

I loved your second point. The Codex Astartes shall not be perfect, but a great guideline. That's how I see it, people are free to disagree with me, but I also like the viewpoint that more conservative Space Marines doesn't like deviation from it.

The Hive Mind is just unending hunger, nothing more, nothing less.

The Tau engineered by Eldar? Sure you ain't meaning the Old Ones? The Orks are engineered by them, the humans, mind-raped and such.

clively wrote:
The Void Dragon went into hiding on Mars and is the real Omnissiah.

I thought the Newcron dex left this open?

 Beaviz81 wrote:
The grunts just ain't told everything. That's the strength and weakness of the IOM.

I still wouldn't have IG units exterminated for contact with the GK. Don't tell them of their true intent, but rather lie to them that they are being aided by a regular SM chapter.

As an Imperial Guard player, I like the idea that Guardsmen tend to be killed off after encountering demons / grey knights. It does help the grim darkness and helps illustrate just exactly the price of a guardsmans life.

However, I'd also like to think they're relatively sensible about it all. For example, only doing it after the war is over and other more pragmatic alternatives tend to be considered. - For example, being seconded by the Inquisition for certain missions where cannon fodder is required. Might as well not waste a new resource on it when you've got a perfectly good one that hasn't gone insane quite yet and may prove still useful. However, you wouldn't want them going off to a normal warzone, against say, orks, and have them interacting with other regiments.... That would be unwise.

I'm writing a narrative battle report right now which really plays this up. The Guard are clueless about demons, however my Guard know of:

the executioners... Though their names were unknown, their deeds of terror were known throughout the lowest ranks of the guard. They were the Bringers of The Warp, silencers of the Convent, and some of the most unreliable soldiers even claim these silver clad destroyers were responsible for the genocide of Armageddon...

I made up something I called the Schism of Amarath to explain away the changes between the old Grey Knights and the Ward book while allowing me to reject Ward's fluff and keep my Grey Knight army. Long story short: The High Lords of Terra decide to appoint a 'supreme grand master' to give themselves some additional authority and oversight over the Grey Knights; some of the Grey Knights are fine with it, others less so. Certain anti-central-authority factions within the Inquisition persuade the reluctant faction to declare themselves the new 'true' heirs to the traditions of the Grey Knights and walk out on the Order on Titan; both the High Lords and these Inquisitors know it's not in either one's best interest to turn this into a full-blown civil war, so both Grey Knight factions operate in different areas of the galaxy now, though when they come across each other bullets are exchanged.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
The grunts just ain't told everything. That's the strength and weakness of the IOM.

I still wouldn't have IG units exterminated for contact with the GK. Don't tell them of their true intent, but rather lie to them that they are being aided by a regular SM chapter.

Regular SM chapter? My impression is that only officers are granted enough info to distinguish between Space Marine chapters. But I sort of agree I'm damn tired of the Stupid Evil some try to cast the IOM as. I can see that lie being told.

Makari the banna wava was killed by a lucky shot from a dirty humie, as it's written in the fanfic on 1d4. Ghazghkull really did care for him, and that along with the stupid story about him being sat on is part of the reason he crushes human settlements with such vehemence.

Malal is still a chaos god, but because of his constant antagonizing towards the other four gods, they ganged up on him and had him banished from the warp. Of course, being a tricky little bastard, he still hides out on the edges of the warp, quietly interfering with the material plane and harrassing the other four gods when they aren't looking. Whenever Tzeentch makes a plan, Malal counters it. When Nurgle makes a poison, Malal makes a cure. When Khorne demands blood, Malal causes some of his followers to get lost and unable to kill anything. Whenever Slaanesh is in one of those moods... Well, it's not pretty, mind you.

The Codex Astartes is a guideline, not a rulebook. If Guilliman ever came back and found everyone being such rule lawyers, he'd get mad at them.

The Inquisition can be reasonable at times, and won't blow up a planet for no reason.

The Necrontyr were a frail and pathetic race and did get tricked and eaten by the C'tan like they used to, however to bridge the gap between Old and Newcrons, they later revolted against the C'tan and formed their own empire, as described in the Newcron book.

The Tau are much less kind than they appear to be. They'll ask you once, then bring down hell and kill anyone and everything that stands against them.

Alpharius is still alive. Wait, no, that one actually is true.

Oh, the SM game is canon

it takes place a bit into the 42M after Calgar has died and Sicarus and the other guy duked it out for who will be the next Chapter Master. Titus is the new captain of 2nd Company

 Galdos wrote:
Oh, the SM game is canon

it takes place a bit into the 42M after Calgar has died and Sicarus and the other guy duked it out for who will be the next Chapter Master. Titus is the new captain of 2nd Company

I go by this, except I place the Ultramarines movie between Sicarus and Titus. Severus is killed and Titus is his successor.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

I go by this, except I place the Ultramarines movie between Sicarus and Titus. Severus is killed and Titus is his successor.

Well that is not possible because the film "Ultramarines" is probably set before Cato became Captain.

And "Space Marine" video game really went into 42'nd millennium. Because Blood Ravens there were using captain Angelos's new chapter battle cry "None shall find us wanting" ( also this is main indication that the Space Marine ending in "retribution" was the canonical one. Also, because settings in DoW Dark Crusade takes place in 999.M40, that means that Retribution is taking place some ten to twelve years in M42'nd ). Cato could simply be promoted and Titus put as commander.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

I go by this, except I place the Ultramarines movie between Sicarus and Titus. Severus is killed and Titus is his successor.

Well that is not possible because the film "Ultramarines" is probably set before Cato became Captain.

And "Space Marine" video game really went into 42'nd millennium. Because Blood Ravens there were using captain Angelos's new chapter battle cry "None shall find us wanting" ( also this is main indication that the Space Marine ending in "retribution" was the canonical one. Also, because settings in DoW Dark Crusade takes place in 999.M40, that means that Retribution is taking place some ten to twelve years in M42'nd ). Cato could simply be promoted and Titus put as commander.

What about the mosaic in Ultramarines? It depicts the Tyrannic War on Macragge, which took place after Sicarius was promoted to Captain. If Severus was the 2nd Company Captain before such time, how would the mosaic be there?

Or, is Severus Titus's successor after Titus was picked up by the Inquisition?

Cato Sicarus became Captain in 849.M41, Battle for Macragge was on 746.M41. He became Captain 150 years AFTER Battle for Macragge.
And Titus is clearly Cato's successor.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Cato Sicarus became Captain in 849.M41, Battle for Macragge was on 746.M41. He became Captain 150 years AFTER Battle for Macragge.
And Titus is clearly Cato's successor.

Okay, so then Severus would have to come AFTER Titus. Since Cato's predecessor was Severus Agemman, current 1st Company Cap. Ultramarines film Severus was a 2nd Company Captain sometime after Macragge before Agemman, or after Titus.

Probably the one where you said "after Macragge before Agemman".

 Lynata wrote:
- Angron was not "a baby" when he was attacked by what "Imperial scholars believe" to be Eldar. At least the IA does not mention it. What it does mention is that he was sent straight to the gladiator pits as a slave warrior, and I don't imagine people would throw a toddler in there. Not even one found surrounded by (possible) Eldar corpses. Furthermore, the article notes that "the legend of Angron is incomplete" and how "the true facts are impossible to discern from legend".

I suppose the "baby" bit is just one of those things you hear about so often that it just becomes true in your mind.

- Konrad Curze's embryonic form supposedly "descended from the heavens in a crackling ball of light" which is then said to have smashed through almost half the planet. I'm kind of tempted to call BS on it right there, but even assuming that this is true and Nostramo was penetrated in this incredibly violent manner, I would interpret the crackling ball of light to have been some sort of high-tech preservation pod, or perhaps the Chaos Gods' dark magic. Whatever the case, I am fairly certain it was not just the embryo.

He'd still have to crawl out.

- With Ferrus Manus' story, I am willing to believe that the creature was indeed a Necron construct, even though the bit about "remnants of a forgotten age" could just as well hint at the Dark Age of Technology and some rogue AI. Either way, the bit about "fighting the creature for days on end" and "across continents and seas" is where my suspension of disbelief breaks again and I'll just label the story a product of folklore and distorted legend. I'm sure that as with all folklore there is some truth to it, but I'm saying that at least half of it is made up, twisted by countless retellings from one clan sage to another.
I mean, honestly, do you expect me to believe Ferrus Manus actually, truthfully carried an entire mountain on his back from one island to another, because he wanted to troll a "storm giant"?

So do you think he was just born with iron hands then? You find that less absurd than a legendary superbeing holding a robot below magma?

- About Magnus versus Russ, I could not find any such details like those you mentioned in the article. However, I did notice how the accounts of their duel are unanimously labeled as "contradicting each other dramatically". Especially the Space Wolves version is, even within the setting, facing criticism regardings its versimilitude. Not surprising, given how it is said to be "oral tradition", and I'm sure we all know how Vikings liked to tell their tales.

It is in the Space Wolves section of Index Astartes II. I'll also go ahead and note that the breastplate smashing bit was also present in the "actual" account in A Thousand Sons (The novel), by Graham McNeill (Who, if you recall, actually has worked on GW codices and Index Astartes articles), though you might not particularly care.

- The exact circumstances of Dorn's death are indeed unknown, but dying during a simple boarding action still stands in stark contrast to most of the other Primarch's fates. What sort of resistance would you assume he could have faced?

It was a Black Crusade.

Legionairres armed with absurdly powerful Daemon Weapons, potent Thousand Sons sorcerers, Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, any manner of big nasties that could harm a Primarch significantly.

- As for Luther, I was not referring to his duel with El'Jonson, and not even to when he was made a Space Marine. I was talking about the time before the Emperor arrived, when he and the Lion were just two warriors in a knightly Order.

Wait, you're referring to the line that they complemented eachother's abilities well? That doesn't imply that they were even near equals in martial or physical skill, and it completely ignores the fact that Luther, as a Space Marine, needed to dope on the power flooded into him by all four Chaos Gods to be his equal, lol.

Yes, the interpretation does have a basis, but it is not factual accounts. Rather legends, myths and folklore, as I've been saying. And I choose to regard them as such instead of taking everything for having happened in exactly that way.
At least I assume that this is what GW intended, too.

To an extent? Sure.

But I think GW certainly intended the Primarchs to be very much superhuman, to an extent beyond even the Astartes. You don't see many Astartes killing the most powerful Bloodthirster of all in single combat.

If I would take everything at face value, then I'd also have to accept the existence of divine magic. Yet I do not believe that gods actually exist in 40k. It is all just in the Warp.

The difference between divine magic and the power of the Warp from a mortal perspective is nonexistent, IMHO. It is power that can't be explained by science and only slightly controlled or measured through various Warp sciences (In terms of Chaos specifically, it basically just can't), it violates the laws of physics and reshapes worlds when it enters realspace, and it is gifted by immense and massively powerful beings in a higher plane. That the gods live in the Warp hardly discounts them from being gods.

 Galdos wrote:
Newcrons are simply the more activated versions of Oldcrons. IE. Oldcrons fluff was what the Imperial xeno-experts thought the Necrons were at the time but as time goes on the learned more about them and understand what the Newcrons are now.

This has been my assessments. They are one of the few areas where I believe GW has advanced the plot. More data has been gathered, events that formerly went unexplained (or blamed on chaos/eldar/tau/swamp gas), and reports have been uncovered that suddenly give more context and understanding of who and what the Necrons are. Before, they were just some dark, race of nameless robots. Now, now they are an empire that is an actual threat to the safety of mankind.

I also don't believe in the idea of a machine spirit. I believe it's AI, and let me explain:

So during Old Night, and the war with the iron men, it's assumed through the fluff that it was essentially the men of iron were artificial intelligences. Obviously tired of being subordinates, they rebelled and were barely beat back by mankind. Now, because these AIs had been largely responsible for basically EVERYTHING of meaning for the last 12,000 years, humans were kind of caught on the wrong side of town with no idea how to get home, ya get? So these defeated AIs weren't actually dead, they were just largely without offensive capability. Instead of sticking around to wait and see what the humans did, they did the next best thing...they hid. How does a computer program hide? It goes somewhere you won't look for it. Regular machines. Battle tanks. Lasguns. Lifts. Communicators. Industrial computer networks. Whatever. So now these AIs have spread themselves out all over the place. Every piece of technology with the ability to store memory (so by this point, EVERYTHING) is a hiding place for these AIs. The human finally get a grip on reality again and start reforging a life. However, since they are basically blindly crawling along, they are pretty much blind to the fact that every piece of technology around is actually a sentient AI. Like all sentient creatures, these AIs do have personalities and emotions. The AI inhabiting the fridge in your kitchen may be relatively friendly and calm. It keeps your food cool in exchange for you keeping it clean and well cared for. However, the AI inhabiting the AC unit you have is a real jerkwad. It doesn't like be told what to do, so it frequently just doesn't. You have to coax it with pleading and begging to even turn on correctly. Sometimes it aquiesces, sometimes it doesn't. Now, because you live in the 31st millenium and know that all AIs are gone, you have no real explanation for this behavior. That is, until some quasi-religious order of mechanics tells you it's a spirit. Suddenly, you aren't begging your AC unit to work, you are begging the machine spirit that inhabits your AC unit. Now, the AI inside it really doesn't give a gak most of the time. But the constant prayer and vigil at least stroke it's ego enough that it listens and behaves....for a little bit.

Now, as time marches on and mankind gets to building new stuff, those AIs...which are in EVERYTHING....find new places to inhabit. Titans, because they offer some incredible capability, are probably the source of much infighting. Several powerful AIs may actually fight over the memory in that thing. By the time in Princeps gets seated and hooks up to it, his only job is to keep the jacked up AI from destroying itself in rage. Meanwhile, the Adeptus Mechanicus is terrified to even try messing with anything because every time they do, something terrible happens.

So yeah, I don't believe in the machine god.

The Imperial Fists, as the First Legion, The Emperors bodyguards do not adhere to the codex astartes, girlyman can, but what did he do during the heresy? While The Imperial fists don't advertise the fact that there ship bound forces far far exceed the 1000 marines joke, neither will they deny it, and scattered as they are no-one even knows that there are around 20,000 of them.
Its the same deal as the black templars, because the imperial fists believe that while the codex astartes is a good thing for fast reaction forces and so forth, its not enough for a force that has to defend Terra at all costs. they spilt their blood to hold back Horus' forces, they were the ones who held the imperial palace against the tide of chaos, and if the ultra marines and the corrupt venal lords of terra don't like it? well, they can take a short drop followed by a sudden stop. The Imperial Fists will be only so happy to oblige.

 Galdos wrote:
Malal was defeated/absorbed by the other Chaos gods to such a degree he is barely even mentioned but he exist


Newcrons are simply the more activated versions of Oldcrons. IE. Oldcrons fluff was what the Imperial xeno-experts thought the Necrons were at the time but as time goes on the learned more about them and understand what the Newcrons are now.


Than there is a bunch of other things that dont really get factored in.

The Golden Throne isnt failling

Most IG regiments are actually compitenant with military leaders like commissars who actually care about their men and avoid wasting them.

The Mechanicum does still do advancement and technological research, it is just very slow and careful.

Draigo is actually fighting a mind war with Tzeentch. Everythign he has ever done is actually Tzeentch fething with him in his mind trying to show everything he does is pointless but if he joined Chaos he COULD have a lasting impact in an attempt to turn him.

Grey Knights rarely kill those they know are innocent and do not mind wipe loyal subjects.

The Inquisition, though willing to kill the innocent, makes sure that all actions are calculated to be long term effective. They dont just declare world exterminatus because feth that guy. They actually do their job correctly in other words.

Tau are very agreesive in their attitudes towards others so even minor resistance can result in their military actions. Non-Tau members are considered second class, humans and other races that fight the Tau are even worse than that
Ill list others later

with the exeption of the Tau part, I agree with this especially the Imperial Guard commanders being competent

GW needs to realize that grimdark=/= stupidity and poor story writing

Forge World pretty much does it right, if anything, Citadel should absorb forge world and have all codexes be Imperial Armour instead