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 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Please cite where you must be armed with two single-handed melee weapons to gain the bonus attack. Per page 24, you just need two single-handed weapons. I have a power sword and a krak grenade. How many single-handed weapons do I have?

It is on Page 51, More than one weapon section.

Editing:
Although You may be onto something with the Page 50 Quote, specifically this one:

"If the weapon's range contains a '-', it is (unless otherwise stated) a Melee weapon." (50)

Krak Grenades have a range of - So they are a melee weapon.

I agree HJ, you get the bonus attack for having a Pistol and a grenade. I am going to have to rethink my unit choices. Tac Squads may have just gotten a bit better.

No, this is a case of being otherwise stated. Grenade profiles do not have the melee type listed and above and beyond that they specify how they may be used in close combat...IF you USE them, then they are treated as a melee weapon...if they were always a melee weapon, then there would be no reason to say that.

So they are not a melee weapon except when used, which means there is no way for them to grant the +1 Attack bonus for wielding 2 or more single-handed weapons.

 shamikebab wrote:
Would you seriously try to play this or let people try and play this against you?

If the rules allowed it, of course. Do you generally ignore the rules in your games? My group tries to play by all of the rules.

But the rules do not concur with grenades being Melee weapons unless you are fighting a MC or vehicle so it is a moot point.

Insaniak, Gaining the +1 attack would be using them.

However that is only for MC's and Vehicles.

Actually, granades have 2 profiles, you have the 8" "throw" and then you have the assault melee version of it.

Dracoknight wrote:
Actually, granades have 2 profiles, you have the 8" "throw" and then you have the assault melee version of it.

And you dont get +1 attack for granades with a pistol and a granade as you dont have "gunslinger", and then again it states you can use the granade *instead* of your original weapon which might be that it actually is two-handed.

Do they have the Two-Handed rule? (Page 43) if not then they are one handed.

Corrections on my rules from above, i was a bit late to delete my mistake:

it says "A model can use such a grenade as a Melee weapon, but only ever make one attack, regardless of the attacks on its profile" P.61

So if you "dual whield" a granade, you reduce your attacks down to 1, even if you have a "extra weapon" because of the granade, it will cause you do only do 1 attack.

 yakface wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Please cite where you must be armed with two single-handed melee weapons to gain the bonus attack. Per page 24, you just need two single-handed weapons. I have a power sword and a krak grenade. How many single-handed weapons do I have?

It is on Page 51, More than one weapon section.

Editing:
Although You may be onto something with the Page 50 Quote, specifically this one:

"If the weapon's range contains a '-', it is (unless otherwise stated) a Melee weapon." (50)

Krak Grenades have a range of - So they are a melee weapon.

I agree HJ, you get the bonus attack for having a Pistol and a grenade. I am going to have to rethink my unit choices. Tac Squads may have just gotten a bit better.

No, this is a case of being otherwise stated. Grenade profiles do not have the melee type listed and above and beyond that they specify how they may be used in close combat...IF you USE them, then they are treated as a melee weapon...if they were always a melee weapon, then there would be no reason to say that.

So they are not a melee weapon except when used, which means there is no way for them to grant the +1 Attack bonus for wielding 2 or more single-handed weapons.

Where in the rules does it say ONLY two melee weapons grant the bonus? Page 51 reminds us that 2 melee weapons grant the bonus per page 24 (which just says weapons), but does not say only (similar to the whole debate with psychic powers stacking).

 shamikebab wrote:
Would you seriously try to play this or let people try and play this against you?

No, because I don't think it is the intent. Just like I don't think it is the intent for models who do not have eyes to be able to draw LOS. Furthermore, I'm the closest thing to a rules lawyer at my store as no one else bothers to take the time to look at rules in different lights (such as this).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dracoknight wrote:
Corrections on my rules from above, i was a bit late to delete my mistake:

it says "A model can use such a grenade as a Melee weapon, but only ever make one attack, regardless of the attacks on its profile" P.61

So if you "dual whield" a granade, you reduce your attacks down to 1, even if you have a "extra weapon" because of the granade, it will cause you do only do 1 attack.

So a model with a Power Fist and Lightning Claw is always striking at Init 1? If you must "use" the second weapon to get the bonus attack then you have all sorts of problems.

 Happyjew wrote:
Please cite where you must be armed with two single-handed melee weapons to gain the bonus attack. Per page 24, you just need two single-handed weapons. I have a power sword and a krak grenade. How many single-handed weapons do I have?

How many hands does a Bolter use?

I say you wouldn't get the bonus attack, due to the "but can only ever make one attack, regardless of the number of attacks on it's profile or any bonuses" part. That seems pretty conclusive to me.

Also, found this :

Pg51

It's worth nothing that if a model has two or more melee weapons, he gains +1 attack in close combat.

Since Happyjew asked

 Happyjew wrote:
Where in the rules does it say ONLY two melee weapons grant the bonus? Page 51 reminds us that 2 melee weapons grant the bonus per page 24 (which just says weapons), but does not say only (similar to the whole debate with psychic powers stacking).

It is a presumption, similar to the presumption that all melee weapons that aren't classed as being two-handed are actually single-handed.

Because if we don't make those presumptions that pretty much means that nearly every model with a few weapons is always getting the +1A bonus...sans weird stuff like Tyranids.


And actually by the 'pure' RAW, I don't think we have any weapons clearly identified as being single-handed and therefore NO models are getting the +1A bonus for having two single-handed weapons.


Obviously this is absurd as well, so what other way is there to default back to that makes any sense except that only melee weapons grant the +1 attack bonus and only melee weapons that are not classed as being double-handed are considered to be single-handed?

This is even better than the chaos marine lord bike combi-bolter thread!



Like that thread it seems that there isn't a completely clear answer, the rules are too complicated. If you don't want to house rule it, is there any kind of GW authority that can be asked?

nice and simple answer:

are the grenades listed under melee weapons... NO (except against vehicles and monstrous creatures)
can you get more than 1 attack when using grenades... NO

Can you claim more than 1 melee weapon with a grenade and pistol then... NO

if you want to claim otherwise you will be looking at marine players charging tanks with r10 armour and going well thats 30 attacks on the charge as an example if they hit with 10 men... IN MY DREAMS

While this seems to be getting into waters I hadn't initially charted, it's a worthwhile pursuit! (I'm still following this with interest. )

However, just to clarify.

An Ordo Malleus Inquisitor (who normally comes with frag, krak, and psyk out grenades, as well as a bolt pistol and chainsword) may:

Replace bolt pistol/chainsword with a daemonblade for 15 pts.

He may also "upgrade to a psyker (Mastery Level 1)...exchanging any one weapon for a force sword" for 30 pts.

So, I'm completely above board to replace the bolt pistol AND chainsword with two daemonblades, and then replace one of my grenades (the frags, prolly) with the compulsory force sword in order to become a psyker? That's not cheating?

 Jimsolo wrote:

the compulsory force sword in order to become a psyker? That's not cheating?

Read the GK Errata. The force sword is no longer required to have a PML. "He may..."

Hell. I've been fretting over nothing. I swear, I must have been over that FAQ a hundred times, and don't know how I missed that!

 Jimsolo wrote:


So, I'm completely above board to replace the bolt pistol AND chainsword with two daemonblades, and then replace one of my grenades (the frags, prolly) with the compulsory force sword in order to become a psyker? That's not cheating?

Incomplete question.

Assault/ plasma/ haywire/ krak/ grenades are thrown instead of using another shooting weapon.
Melta bombs among others are used as weapons in close combat, therefore all the grenades in the rulebook are weapons, except defensive grenades.

In gap terms though, expect raised eyebrows if you do this.

Some people will erroneously offer a "special issue wargear, not weapon" argument.
You can pour diahorrhea onto this from orbit with p68 of the chaos marines book, where items in the special wargear section includes grenades that the rulebook clearly refers to as weapons.