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The difference between different marks of Astartes armor are relatively minor compared to the difference between Astartes and Sororities PA.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The difference between different marks of Astartes armor are relatively minor compared to the difference between Astartes and Sororities PA.

Not as much as you're making out the difference to be.

The Astartes armor and Sororitas/Inquisitor/StupidlyRichGuy armor have the only real difference being the Black Carapace. Astartes armor is less worn than it is a part of the user, while Sororitas/Inquisitor/StupidlyRichGuy armor is an exoskeletal system driven by nerve feedback and essentially "plugged in" to the user's nervous system. There is a fractional delay for the standard stuff versus the Astartes gear in terms of response times.

Of course if the Sororitas were to have Centurion armor I would imagine it to be more of a "piloted suit" than it is for the Astartes, with the Sororitas version having a more enclosed operator.

Well, Marine armour also includes a ton of nifty gadgets, some of which they need (drug dispenser), some of which could simply be useful in certain situations (waste recycler). One could say that this could be ignored as it's pretty much just modular stuff that was left out as a cost savings measure, though - and I wouldn't be surprised if some Inquisitor would arrange for his/her suit to be similarly decked out.

Grey Templar has a point in that the "pilot method" is a rather drastic difference, though, and one that seems much more fundamental than the changes between the latter patterns of Marine PA after the Mark I. The difference in actual efficiency may not be that massive, but in terms of technology it's still a different approach to the issue.

That being said, the Astartes do not have a monopoly on MIU implants, as we can see on every Tech-Priest or Enginseer, so again some eccentric Inquisitor may opt for similarly invasive surgery. That the Sisters don't is merely something that was decided within the background of the setting.



Not sure I'd want "SoB Termies" as I'd prefer them to maintain their own niche with some degree of distance to the Space Marines, though - but if they can be made suitably different in terms of game mechanics and tactical usage ...

Perhaps a sort of "Mini Penitent-Engine"; a Centurion variant with a huge shield, a close combat weapon and a built-in flamethrower, a sort of mechanized medieval knight to act as a vanguard and somewhat mitigate the Sisters' weakness against strong CC opponents. A slow and hulking 2-2.5 meter high paladin in heavy armour to act as a bodyguard for squads or special characters, or as a champion to challenge enemy leaders.
Obviously without the operator being as exposed as with the PE, though. And it shouldn't be a penitent but a "pure" Sister.

Still sounds rather Terminator'ish, but at least it's somewhat different, I think.


Get away from the priest, xenos bitch!"

... yes. Yes, okay. I'm in favour of it now.

The size difference would be a major problem. You'd have to have a specific type of Centurion suit for Astartes armor and another for normal human PA.

The space the pilot stands in alone would be majorly different. Which would mean a different type of Centurion armor by default. A normal human in PA couldn't walk into a Centurion and expect to be able to effectively drive it, nor could a marine do the inverse. The space would be too small for his suit.

While the technology in human PA and Astartes PA might be the same, its not compatible. Human and Astartes PA is like the difference between a Mac and a PC. Sure its the same technology doing the same basic things, but its not compatible.

I don't think anyone suggested just putting a human into a Centurion suit. Obviously, a non-Astartes variant would be built to "standard" human proportions.

Ripley's power loader is a good example - you could easily add half a meter in height just because the feet of the operator stand so high above the ground.

True, but why would the Ad Mech build something snazzy for the space marines and then think "hey, normal humans should have their own version. Lets waste valuable resources on normal people instead of humanity's finest!"

PA for normal humans is INCREDIBLY rare. The Ecclesiarchy only gets a limited amount of suits for the Sisters because they are so wealthy, and Inquisitors get whatever the hell they want.

I doubt the Ecclesiarchy can toss enough money at the Ad Mech to get Centurions when they only just get PA for the Sisters. And its really bare bones PA compared to what is possible.

 Grey Templar wrote:
True, but why would the Ad Mech build something snazzy for the space marines and then think "hey, normal humans should have their own version. Lets waste valuable resources on normal people instead of humanity's finest!"

PA for normal humans is INCREDIBLY rare. The Ecclesiarchy only gets a limited amount of suits for the Sisters because they are so wealthy, and Inquisitors get whatever the hell they want.

I doubt the Ecclesiarchy can toss enough money at the Ad Mech to get Centurions when they only just get PA for the Sisters. And its really bare bones PA compared to what is possible.

This is why you put a meltagun to the Tech Priest's head and start quoting pulp fiction if he doesn't get cracking.

 Grey Templar wrote:
True, but why would the Ad Mech build something snazzy for the space marines and then think "hey, normal humans should have their own version. Lets waste valuable resources on normal people instead of humanity's finest!"

PA for normal humans is INCREDIBLY rare. The Ecclesiarchy only gets a limited amount of suits for the Sisters because they are so wealthy, and Inquisitors get whatever the hell they want.

I doubt the Ecclesiarchy can toss enough money at the Ad Mech to get Centurions when they only just get PA for the Sisters. And its really bare bones PA compared to what is possible.

Not really true - the wealth of the Ecclesiarchy has nothing to do with the provision of Power Armour to the Sororitas.............

Maybe it has - the fluff isn't very detailed regarding the backstory of Angel-pattern PA, and the Sisters are kind of wasteful with it in some instances (burying their dead together with the suit ... then again this could just as well mean they don't care about the price).

Either way, the Ecclesiarchy is ridiculously rich and the Sisters are a ridiculously small force to equip. GW could easily whip up some kind of deal between the Ecclesiarchy and the AdMech like they did with the Exorcist. "Hey Tech-Priests, you want another STC?"

In 2013, it was determined that you already had enough Space Marines, and Dreadnoughts, and Terminators. So something new that you don't have was invented and given a piece of unique equipment so that you would buy them.

 Lynata wrote:
Maybe it has - the fluff isn't very detailed regarding the backstory of Angel-pattern PA, and the Sisters are kind of wasteful with it in some instances (burying their dead together with the suit ... then again this could just as well mean they don't care about the price).

I like how you've glossed over a pretty easy explanation.

The standard suits have to be custom-tailored to their owners, right down to the nervous system feedbacks.

I don't think thats true.

Marine PA suits are passed down from marine to marine, so obviously the neural links aren't unique to individuals. And SoB armor doesn't have neural interfaces any way.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I don't think thats true.

Marine PA suits are passed down from marine to marine, so obviously the neural links aren't unique to individuals. And SoB armor doesn't have neural interfaces any way.

Marine PA suits are passed down from Marine to Marine, but all of the Marines have the Black Carapace to serve as a "medium" between themselves and the suit.

And yeah. SoB armor/Inquisitor armor does have neural linkages. The dossier for Inquisitor Hector Rex makes a very clear mention of his suit possessing "...the exoskeletal array of actuators and fibre bundles which mimic muscle movements. These are connected via a neural interface to the wearer's motor neural system.".

Sure you can argue that his suit is "artificer armor" but the origin of the suit is apparently a standard suit of Ordo Malleus/Grey Knight powered armor modified for someone of his size and bulk which is very similar to a standard Marine.

 Lynata wrote:
I don't think anyone suggested just putting a human into a Centurion suit. Obviously, a non-Astartes variant would be built to "standard" human proportions.

Ripley's power loader is a good example - you could easily add half a meter in height just because the feet of the operator stand so high above the ground.

Did that.... sort of. I have a "Termi" version, "Space Marine" version
and a Centurion blueprints on drawing board right now....

Had a Dreadnought kind designed (less suit, more like a combat walker, similar to Cyclops from HALO war. has pilot as opposed to being worn.) but I never went through with it.

But overall. I still think its a matter of "Yo Dawg" Like I said before.

Kanluwen wrote:I like how you've glossed over a pretty easy explanation.
The standard suits have to be custom-tailored to their owners, right down to the nervous system feedbacks.

Nah, those suits are made of modular pieces of equipment that can be rearranged and reconfigured, or individually replaced wherever necessary.

Remember that power armour is not, contrary to common belief, a solidly connected man-shaped carapace with mechanised joints (as it is in other settings) - it's a bunch of armour plating nailed to a flexible undersuit. Which is why Marine armour can also be passed on to new Marines regardless of minor differences in body shape.

I also believe the Black Carapace argument may not really hold true when you consider that a new suit would interpret the signals from two different Carapaces in a different way. A Black Carapace does not "know" whether or not it should adjust its output for a new suit of armour; all it does is pass on the signal. By itself, it is as "dumb" as the hardware that receives the commands, thus likely requiring manual finetuning as well. It cannot instinctively do that itself as even the armour it communicates with will not realise that, say, a move involving X amount of kinetic energy was actually supposed to be Y. That is something that only the Space Marine himself will realise, upon which he'd tell the Techmarine to fix it until it "feels right".

Whatever controls SoB-PA (I've heard about electric impulse pickups as well as pressure sensors so far), I assume it can be set to a new user just like it was configured for the first one. How could the calibration be a "single-use operator lock" that cannot ever be adjusted or changed?

Engine of War wrote:But overall. I still think its a matter of "Yo Dawg" Like I said before.

Oh, yes. I remember the Dreadknight mash-up from the other thread.

Actually - those Marines in the Centurion suits are not actually wearing their full armour under the exoskeleton, or do they?

In 2013, it was determined that you already had enough Space Marines, and Dreadnoughts, and Terminators. So something new that you don't have was invented and given a piece of unique equipment so that you would buy them.

Pretty much. Though I would have liked to see a new Terminator "Support" kit, which would allow you to field a Sgt and 4 Terminators with various Heavy weapons instead of stormbolters (especially including more options like plasma cannons, multi-meltas and lascannons) for 50-60 dollars than three entirely randomly new models for $78. Would have made more sense in the grand scheme of Marine fluff.

Actually - those Marines in the Centurion suits are not actually wearing their full armour under the exoskeleton, or do they?

As far as I know it's just a power-armored marine in a loader suit festooned with equipment.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I don't think thats true.

Marine PA suits are passed down from marine to marine, so obviously the neural links aren't unique to individuals. And SoB armor doesn't have neural interfaces any way.

Marine PA suits are passed down from Marine to Marine, but all of the Marines have the Black Carapace to serve as a "medium" between themselves and the suit.

And yeah. SoB armor/Inquisitor armor does have neural linkages. The dossier for Inquisitor Hector Rex makes a very clear mention of his suit possessing "...the exoskeletal array of actuators and fibre bundles which mimic muscle movements. These are connected via a neural interface to the wearer's motor neural system.".

Sure you can argue that his suit is "artificer armor" but the origin of the suit is apparently a standard suit of Ordo Malleus/Grey Knight powered armor modified for someone of his size and bulk which is very similar to a standard Marine.

Hector Rex is a failed marine initiate, and has some of the implants of a space marine. So his armor will be an exception to the rule.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I don't think thats true.

Marine PA suits are passed down from marine to marine, so obviously the neural links aren't unique to individuals. And SoB armor doesn't have neural interfaces any way.

Marine PA suits are passed down from Marine to Marine, but all of the Marines have the Black Carapace to serve as a "medium" between themselves and the suit.

And yeah. SoB armor/Inquisitor armor does have neural linkages. The dossier for Inquisitor Hector Rex makes a very clear mention of his suit possessing "...the exoskeletal array of actuators and fibre bundles which mimic muscle movements. These are connected via a neural interface to the wearer's motor neural system.".

Sure you can argue that his suit is "artificer armor" but the origin of the suit is apparently a standard suit of Ordo Malleus/Grey Knight powered armor modified for someone of his size and bulk which is very similar to a standard Marine.

Hector Rex is a failed marine initiate, and has some of the implants of a space marine. So his armor will be an exception to the rule.

He is not "a failed marine initiate". He was given genetic treatments similar to those of a marine when he was younger.

Read Vraks a bit more closely. Nowhere does it suggest he was "a failed marine initiate".

Hmmm, it appears you are correct.

I'd always heard it as him being a failed marine initiate.


But still, this would be well outside the norm. Having a mental link with your armor definitely doesn't happen very often.

Inquisitor Amberley Vial uses a tailored bodyglove with neural connections to allow her to use her artificer armour effectively IIRC.

Centurions really have no purpose in fluff, at all. I get the fluff exists to sell models but even by these standards they're shoe-horned in. Their missions and expertise can be covered by Terminators or Dreadnoughts (and always have in fluff/gameplay thus far).

GW just realized they needed to sell more new stuff this release than the Stalker-Hunter kit so they pulled this out of their ass.

 Harriticus wrote:
Centurions really have no purpose in fluff, at all. I get the fluff exists to sell models but even by these standards they're shoe-horned in. Their missions and expertise can be covered by Terminators or Dreadnoughts (and always have in fluff/gameplay thus far).

Guilliman in his infinite wisdom decree'd that only the elite 1st company comprised of those who have attained veteran status should be trained in the use of the hallowed Terminator armour.

Centurion suits, being unknown to Guilliman, have no such restriction placed on their use, thereby allowing them to be issued to Assault & Devastator squads without violating the holy Codex Astartes.

Its just the "new" dreadnought training program. Those old guys wont last forever and with all those xenos jumping round in their sleek suits the corpse god commanded his minions to "go and get me some new clothes". After years of rumaging through the vast walk in wardrobe of earth someone found this guy

I'd focus more on the descriptions about Terminator armour being really, really, really hard to produce and thus rather rare.

"Incredibly ancient, the secrets of much construction have long since been lost and each one is revered by the Space Marines and lovingly maintained by the chapter's Techmarines. The armour is often ancient, many of the older suits having been produced before the Horus Heresy. Although new suits are produced by the Adeptus Mechanicus, the production rate is so slow, and the demand for them so great, that each chapter takes the utmost care of its precious remaining suits. Each suit has a special place of honour within the First Company's Chapel and only warriors of the First Company and selected senior commanders may enter the armoury and don these holy artefacts."
- WD #304

So, perhaps it helps to see Centurion suits as "Termie Lite"? I could easily imagine newer Chapters not to have Terminator armour at all, or perhaps barely enough to equip a single squad, instead using Centurions as a surrogate. Older and/or better equipped Chapters instead have enough to use them in other Battle Companies, etc...

I'm generally sceptical of retroactive additions to armouries, especially given that stagnation is a major theme in 40k, but at least the writers were clever enough to write their first appearance into an earlier era rather than having the Marines start to use them just "now" in 999.M41.
Because it'd get real awkward if this continues with the next couple codices and each army suddenly ends up introducing tons of new gear all at the same time.

*sigh* I've just got my copy of the codex, and why couldn't they have posed the centurion models like the artwork, they would look awesome if they had.

Well, in order to introduce new units (and they need to introduce new units to make money), GW either has to make retroactive "Oh, they had this all along" changes or move the plot forward to introduce those units. And the latter isn't going to happen, so...

I think Centurions look silly, myself, but I can understand why GW would make them the next new unit. Primarily because I can't think of any other new unit they could introduce. Marines already have enough foot soldiers, tanks, planes, and transports. The only thing left to get them is giant gundams. ....though with the wraithknights, dreadknights, and new riptides (and I'm marginally sure the new SoB unit will be a female centurion. They probably chose Centurions being unvealed during the age of apostacy for a reason, you know), you really gotta wonder if there's some other alternative out there for the Order-ish factions.

Chaotic factions tend to have more free-reign with the type of new units they can get, which is why instead of a giant gundam, CSM got dinobots instead. ....arguably not an improvement. Daemons sure were a lost opportunity though. Instead of something really freaky and chaos and spawned form your worse dreams and nightmares, they only got some new chariots -_- Only new fresh unit of their's that comes to my mind are Nurgle's fly cavalry (ironic, considering that he's the god of stagnation).

 piprinx wrote:

TheSGC wrote:
Going off what usually happens, most fluff from now on will probably include at least a cameo appearance of Centurion armor, so while there isn't any fluff now, there will likely be in the coming years.

That is pretty annoying, especially when its a BL novel and you can tell the author was told to shoe horn the new thing in. Its like a TV show where all of a sudden there is a new character, who everyone acts like they've always been there, and they can't stop shouting "HEY I'M THE NEW GUY I'VE ALWAYS BEEN HERE!" Funnily enough the new thing is usually killed off pretty easily or quickly...

I honestly could not get through Ravenwing by Thorpe because of it.

 Engine of War wrote:
Techpriest turns to space marine.

Yo dawg, I heard you like power armor. So we put Power armor over your power armor over your Space marines.
So you can Power Armor while you Sphess Marheen the Enemeh.

I freaking lost it.