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 Wayshuba wrote:
This is the crux of the a-typical death spiral. Sorry folks, but this is one of the clear signs.

When cost-cutting starts digging into sales and marketing channels (and Games Day was a big marketing channel for GW), it is frequently a clear indicator the company is in the death spiral. It is a rush to stay one step ahead on cost cutting but effect the revenue the next period. And so on, and so on.

That is why it gained the phrase originally of the "death spiral". An illustration of the sequences down the spiral:



GW has reached the point where they are now cutting costs from their revenue channels. Once this happens, historically, things go down hill very fast from here. Thus why the funnel gets narrower and narrower as you reach the bottom.

Let's just watch and see. Three more weeks and we will know more when the financials are published.

GW's stock price had a HUGE drop off a few months ago, but has started to recover. Of course they're still in worse shape than they were a few years ago.

 notprop wrote:
How was Games Day ever a Marketing Channel?

I has been the very definition of preaching to the converted for 20 odd years.

Dropping a costly show with dwindling attendance seems like very sensible idea.

The focus on WHW and FW events as they have been doing would seem to be a re-focusing of this.

It was still marketting to people that knew about them, and providing value for the fans. It let them see and play stuff they'd normally never have access to, and inspire them. It gave them free stuff and a great day out, making them more likely to spend more on the hobby. At least, that's what it was before it became Sales Day.

 Random Dude wrote:

 Wayshuba wrote:
This is the crux of the a-typical death spiral. Sorry folks, but this is one of the clear signs.

When cost-cutting starts digging into sales and marketing channels (and Games Day was a big marketing channel for GW), it is frequently a clear indicator the company is in the death spiral. It is a rush to stay one step ahead on cost cutting but effect the revenue the next period. And so on, and so on.

That is why it gained the phrase originally of the "death spiral". An illustration of the sequences down the spiral:



GW has reached the point where they are now cutting costs from their revenue channels. Once this happens, historically, things go down hill very fast from here. Thus why the funnel gets narrower and narrower as you reach the bottom.

Let's just watch and see. Three more weeks and we will know more when the financials are published.

GW's stock price had a HUGE drop off a few months ago, but has started to recover. Of course they're still in worse shape than they were a few years ago.

Stock pricing has little to do with the realities of a company. Take this for example: http://www.businessinsider.com/cynk-technology-2014-7

It is not about their stock price recovering - it is about their revenue, growth and profits recovering. That is what tends to spiral down very fast once a company is in the death spiral.

Herzlos wrote:

 notprop wrote:
How was Games Day ever a Marketing Channel?

I has been the very definition of preaching to the converted for 20 odd years.

Dropping a costly show with dwindling attendance seems like very sensible idea.

The focus on WHW and FW events as they have been doing would seem to be a re-focusing of this.

It was still marketting to people that knew about them, and providing value for the fans. It let them see and play stuff they'd normally never have access to, and inspire them. It gave them free stuff and a great day out, making them more likely to spend more on the hobby. At least, that's what it was before it became Sales Day.

^ Truth!

Games Day was also a way for GW to say "Wow - look at us aren't we great, no other hobby company can do this" It was always a bit of a show-off day for them, plus it used to bring in plenty of revenue.

Now other conventions are drawing the crowds and Games Day numbers are down it does seem like a good idea to drop it, even though it does show they aren't the force they used to be.

 SoulDrinker wrote:
Games Day was also a way for GW to say "Wow - look at us aren't we great, no other hobby company can do this" It was always a bit of a show-off day for them, plus it used to bring in plenty of revenue.

Now other conventions are drawing the crowds and Games Day numbers are down it does seem like a good idea to drop it, even though it does show they aren't the force they used to be.

Though other games and miniatures companies can, have, and do have their own shows, typically on a smaller scale.

ReaperCon for Reaper Miniatures is, I gather, a small but very friendly gathering.

PaizoCon, mostly Pathfinder, but since Paizo is also an online retailer there ends up being a lot of stuff - and it is getting bigger.

And, once upon a time, there was a company named TSR - that had Gen Con. A show big enough that it survived the collapse of the parent company, and is thriving today.

I think that Gen Con was the original inspiration for Games Day, but....

The Auld Grump

 SoulDrinker wrote:
Games Day was also a way for GW to say "Wow - look at us aren't we great, no other hobby company can do this" It was always a bit of a show-off day for them, plus it used to bring in plenty of revenue.

Now other conventions are drawing the crowds and Games Day numbers are down it does seem like a good idea to drop it, even though it does show they aren't the force they used to be.

Especially when competing companies are showing growing attendance numbers to their own versions of "Games Day" each year.

Marketing is not just about getting new customers but to keep your existing customers buying.

Since GW is dropping games day they should invest the money into putting booths/tables/exhibits/events at existing cons.

We wrote:
Marketing is not just about getting new customers but to keep your existing customers buying.

Since GW is dropping games day they should invest the money into putting booths/tables/exhibits/events at existing cons.

But... but... WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE SHAREHOLDERS?!

 SoulDrinker wrote:
I think it'll all go Warhammer World events from now on, Games Day is probably done. No staff to run it and they did try and get the clubs to try and paint up stuff for them but that failed as no-one wanted to spare the time.

Really? Considering how many high quality participation and display games there are at general gaming conventions, Bovington especially, I find this quite damning.

 RiTides wrote:
Independent conventions focused on miniature gaming, such as AdeptiCon, are wondeful and in many ways similar to a Games Day experience.

I too have fond memories of a Games Day in Baltimore, but I've had better ones at my two AdeptiCons since then!

Do you recommend I go to the next Adepticon?

 notprop wrote:
How was Games Day ever a Marketing Channel?

I has been the very definition of preaching to the converted for 20 odd years.

Dropping a costly show with dwindling attendance seems like very sensible idea.

The focus on WHW and FW events as they have been doing would seem to be a re-focusing of this.

It used to be an awesome marketing tool in some ways. I was about 1.5 hours away from the Baltimore GD. I knew dozen of parents that took carloads of kids down to it. They'd come back with eyes glowing, and talking about all the fun they had and how much they wanted to paint and play the games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Random Dude wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
Independent conventions focused on miniature gaming, such as AdeptiCon, are wondeful and in many ways similar to a Games Day experience.

I too have fond memories of a Games Day in Baltimore, but I've had better ones at my two AdeptiCons since then!

Do you recommend I go to the next Adepticon?

Yes. Very much recommend Adepticon. Awesome experience.

I believe Mikhaila would have a valid opinion since he has run independent games hobby shops for years.

It is a tough business and you have to know your stuff. (I used to work in one.)

 Random Dude wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
Independent conventions focused on miniature gaming, such as AdeptiCon, are wondeful and in many ways similar to a Games Day experience.

I too have fond memories of a Games Day in Baltimore, but I've had better ones at my two AdeptiCons since then!

Do you recommend I go to the next Adepticon?

This year was my first Adepticon and I enjoyed it!

Well look at the Australian scene for a mo,' GW posted a sales loss of 1 million pounds in their half yearly report concerning the Australian market.

My local Battle Bunker (Parramatta) was shut down and a smaller shop opened, due to soaring costs and negative sales meaning that they could not recover the cost impost of the Battle Bunker through sales.

Games Day to be fair to GW are expensive operations and bite deeply into revenue, and they don't make money. I can not blame GW getting rid of Games Day.

So in the end I support GW's decision, if it reduces costs then so be it.

The problem is that GW aren't cutting fat anymore though, they are cutting into bone. They have cut back on managment positions so now areas like the Australian market are managed from Nottingham, and the stores that used to pull their own weight as hobby centers are now stuggling BECAUSE of the cut backs meaning they are just one man selling things with no time for much of anything else.

Its a bit of a chicken or the egg scenario as you could blame either the loss of sales or the cutbacks as the beginning of the spiral, but now they are each causing the other over and over until the company is run into the ground.

GW could pull out of the spiral, but it would require them to invest instead of cutting, they need to put the hobby back into the Hhhhobby, something which their current business model and the axing of games day are entirely opposed to.

 Achaylus72 wrote:

Games Day to be fair to GW are expensive operations and bite deeply into revenue, and they don't make money. I can not blame GW getting rid of Games Day..

They don't make money because Games Day in Australia was essentially nothing more than a chance to queue up for three hours to pay full retail price for stuff that's available in store all the time anyway.

Add in an entry fee that was double that charged for similar style events, the removal of the seminars covering upcoming releases, the fact that any news that did come out of the event had already been shouted to the world at everyone else's Games Days by that point, and the lack of any actual organised gaming (the last year of Games Day they held the first day of the MOAB tournament at Games Day purely because of a scheduling conflict) and it's not surprising of they weren't making money out of it.

Oddly enough, there are dozens of other conventions out there held annually around the world that do manage to pay for themselves.

But in typical GW fashion, instead of looking at what they were doing wrong, they just canned the event.

 insaniak wrote:

 Achaylus72 wrote:

Games Day to be fair to GW are expensive operations and bite deeply into revenue, and they don't make money. I can not blame GW getting rid of Games Day..

They don't make money because Games Day in Australia was essentially nothing more than a chance to queue up for three hours to pay full retail price for stuff that's available in store all the time anyway.

Add in an entry fee that was double that charged for similar style events, the removal of the seminars covering upcoming releases, the fact that any news that did come out of the event had already been shouted to the world at everyone else's Games Days by that point, and the lack of any actual organised gaming (the last year of Games Day they held the first day of the MOAB tournament at Games Day purely because of a scheduling conflict) and it's not surprising of they weren't making money out of it.

Oddly enough, there are dozens of other conventions out there held annually around the world that do manage to pay for themselves.

But in typical GW fashion, instead of looking at what they were doing wrong, they just canned the event.

I suppose if someone only knows of Games Day in its most recent incarnation, as you say of just a chance to queue to pay full RRP for miniatures you can buy elsewhere, and displays and vendors that are poor comparison to other shows, then of course it doesn't matter to that person that it has been closed.

But, having witnessed Games Day in the full glory days of Empire, and the massive surge of interest that must have generated just because the whole thing was so massively cool and exciting for any (younger people especially) attending the show, I can't help but feel that we are at the end of an era. Still, nothing lasts forever I suppose. But, I think it needs to be acknowledged that the end of the show, and its hamstringing before that as a result of cost-cutting, is definitely a bad thing for both GW's hobby world, and I think also for wargaming in general.

Ah, the days of them running a plastic injection machine in the middle of the show floor, and hurling sprues at random into the crowd... Minis included in ticket price... Participation and bring and battle games... National league finals... And retail with a discount too iirc- wasn't it a '2 yellow dot, get a red dot' sale? My memory (other than buying a large metal eldar pre-aspect warrior army) is vague from 1991.

 insaniak wrote:

 Achaylus72 wrote:

Games Day to be fair to GW are expensive operations and bite deeply into revenue, and they don't make money. I can not blame GW getting rid of Games Day..

They don't make money because Games Day in Australia was essentially nothing more than a chance to queue up for three hours to pay full retail price for stuff that's available in store all the time anyway.

... [edited for length]

Oddly enough, there are dozens of other conventions out there held annually around the world that do manage to pay for themselves.

But in typical GW fashion, instead of looking at what they were doing wrong, they just canned the event.

That is the point. Look at an event such as Salute in London which is huge. It is a local club event run by the South London Warlords. Obviously it makes money for them and for the traders. The public would not pay £10 to attend if they did not like it.

To be fair Salute is partly amateur run which reduces costs whereas GW have to provide the staff and equipment for Games Day. OTOH Games Day costs £30 for a ticket, and any sales made inside go straight into GW's pocket.

If GW cannot find enough people willing to pay £30 to get into Games Day, it must be because the show is not worth the money.

That implies that GW's business model is breaking down.

From what I recall hearing, It certainly used to be that the cost of the ticket, travel and accommodation was easily recouped in freebies/discounts, so it really was a great day out and a good idea to go if you were a big buyer. Even the freebie model offset a fair chunk of the ticket price.

At the only one I've been to (2012), still assuming it would be like the glory days, the only discount was at Forgeworld, and that was purely because you didn't pay the shipping surcharge. There was a small table at one side with online only stuff, and everything else was available from any GW store anywhere in the world.

So it was only really worth going to if you were planning on buying a lot of Forge World (but not enough to get the free shipping), or if you really wanted to meet the design staff or get an authors signature.

I think I paid about £35 a ticket for that games day, whilst all of the other shows I've visited (albeit on a smaller scale) cost in the region of £5 and often come with a free mini. Even Salute costs £12-15 with mini, and I imagine the ExCeL in London must cost at least as much to hire out as the NEC Birmingham.

An interesting thought just occurred to me.

We all know that for years GW has recruited on the basis of affinity for the company and hobby rather than on skills.

Given how the nature of GW has changed considerably, perhaps they are finding it difficult to recruit and motivate the kind of enthusiastic old school wargamer who used to enjoy working for them.

That would help explain the difficulty in staffing events like Games Day, that take a lot of special preparation and unsocial hours working.

I honestly don't think the decline of Games Day has anything whatsoever to do with the level of GW staffing there. IIRC, GW contracts for all UK employees specify that GD is 'expected overtime' - you get a day off in lieu, but you are expected to help out on it if asked. Part of the job, fair enough IMO. It was the same with attending shows in the video game industry.

I think it has everything to do with too much focus on sales as opposed to providing a community promotional event, and implementing the event in such a way as to annoy as wide a cross section of their customer base as possible.

Gamers are peeved at the lack of participation and demonstration games, and eventual removal of any games being played at all.

Painters are annoyed at the poor lighting and presentation of the Golden Demons. Losing the screens showing selected models lit properly, on a turntable as the event goes on was particularly sad.

Newshounds are peeved at the lack of any advance information at all (bar Forgeworld who 'do it right' IMO). No concept art. No greens of unreleased stuff.

Collectors are peeved at the lack of any discount or incentive to purchase (or indeed attend) the event rather than buying online from a discounter. The 'new box smell' only goes so far.

And anyone who has attended the older GD's or any other convention is peeved at the lack of reward for attending. No free mini. Crap goodie bag. No incentive at all.

GD is not failing because there isn't a community there for it. It's not failing because it's understaffed. It's failing because it is a terrible event that generally leaves a foul taste in the mouth of attendees.

winterdyne wrote:
I honestly don't think the decline of Games Day has anything whatsoever to do with the level of GW staffing there.

To a certain extent it does. One of the reasons that was floating around for the cancelling of the Oz event was that with the shrinking of GW Oz head office and the move to the one-man store model, they no longer had the staff to run games day and actually have stores open.


Because volunteers and gaming club participation are apparently not an option, for some reason.

I was primarily referring to GDUK. Which is basically dead too.

winterdyne wrote:
I was primarily referring to GDUK. Which is basically dead too.

The same applies, though. The UK has also been moving to one-man stores, as has the US. And most of the European regional offices have been closed down. With nobody available to run Games Days, whether or not they turn a profit becomes rather a moot point.

Not to mention the number of employees in the stores who would work on the elements for the big tables and displays in the months leading to the event. A much different (and significant) ask with the one-man store model.

winterdyne wrote:
I honestly don't think the decline of Games Day has anything whatsoever to do with the level of GW staffing there. IIRC, GW contracts for all UK employees specify that GD is 'expected overtime' - you get a day off in lieu, but you are expected to help out on it if asked. Part of the job, fair enough IMO. It was the same with attending shows in the video game industry.

I worked for GW about 10 years ago. In a (small) store there were 3 full timers, and a part timer. We did a hell of a lot of work in the weeks running up to the event painting miniatures that were going to be used in a display. I couldn't calculate exactly how many hours, but it was a fair few hours after work with pizza boxes as well (on top of the hours we working) - we didn't expect overtime for it, but it was a lot of fun when you are at an age when money and adult life doesn't seem so serious.

Then on Games Day you have 2 full timers going to the event, and that's the same for each store in the country.

Completely agree with the other points you have made, that there has been a distinct reduction in quality (and quantity!) of the event, but I don't think you can discount the simple practical considerations of a) you need people to paint the miniatures and terrain being used for the display and b) people to work at the event. It's no surprise at all that the total number of events, displays and games on offer have reduced drastically even before the show has been killed off.

Conceded. Losing the hobby from stores is a major factor, I suppose. I thought more was done by the studio.

I went to them a couple times in the late 90s. They were a fun event I looked forward to.

- Awesome looking gaming tables
- I could play just about any army
- Bits by the ounce
- Free mini with ticket

I felt like I got some good value then. I quit going when they stopped the bits service and all the models were full MSRP.