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I'd play them. I'd congratulate them on finding a way to cut their costs.

Play: Yes.

And ask where they got them.

I do NOT play in stores, so that entire argument is irrelevant to me. None of the clubs I've been associated with have played in stores. We preferred it that way.

I wouldn't care in the slightest that they weren't "legitimate" models.

I don't have questionable morals. They just aren't the same as other people's arbitrarily book defined ones.

 Col. Tartleton wrote:
I'd be okay with someone recasting their own models, but I think buying recasts from a third party is wrong. It's bad for the industry and bad for people conducting business in general.

Like if I needed a few hundred clan rats it would be smart to buy a single box and then make resin copies of the sprues and use those to bulk out my force. That's respecting their intellectual property.

Selling those copies would be illegal. Infringing on intellectual property isn't as bad as theft. Its not as bad as selling stolen property or buying stolen property.

In the US, making those copies is illegal.

 Col. Tartleton wrote:
I'd be okay with someone recasting their own models, but I think buying recasts from a third party is wrong. It's bad for the industry and bad for people conducting business in general.

Games Workshop is not "the industry."
But, perhaps that would be an interesting question to ask: is it only OK to recast GW product, or are Privateer Press and Infinity fair game, too?
I have no problems with GW recasts (I suspect some of my Ebay too-good-to-really-be-Finecast purchases may be recasts), but I am less OK with recasts of other companies' product.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Col. Tartleton wrote:
I'd be okay with someone recasting their own models, but I think buying recasts from a third party is wrong. It's bad for the industry and bad for people conducting business in general.

Games Workshop is not "the industry."
But, perhaps that would be an interesting question to ask: is it only OK to recast GW product, or are Privateer Press and Infinity fair game, too?
I have no problems with GW recasts (I suspect some of my Ebay too-good-to-really-be-Finecast purchases may be recasts), but I am less OK with recasts of other companies' product.

I dont think he specified GW so that first part is just annoying to read

But I personally would not play against someone who uses recasts of a "better" company. GW is free game but thats it in my opinion. Especially FW.

If it wasn't for my local store I would never buy from GW, I pirate the rules and buy the models third party so it would be hypocritical to have something against others doing the same things. I actually intend to start recasting my models soon, just to save some money.

 Col. Tartleton wrote:
I'd be okay with someone recasting their own models, but I think buying recasts from a third party is wrong. It's bad for the industry and bad for people conducting business in general.

Like if I needed a few hundred clan rats it would be smart to buy a single box and then make resin copies of the sprues and use those to bulk out my force. That's respecting their intellectual property.

Selling those copies would be illegal. Infringing on intellectual property isn't as bad as theft. Its not as bad as selling stolen property or buying stolen property.

So, buying a box of models and then using them to make more copies of the same model is better than buying a bunch of copies of the model, which will, at some point, have required the purchase of some originals in exactly the same way?

By all means make that argument on a personal economic basis, but don't try and argue it's either morally any better, or makes the slightest difference to the finances of the company affected.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Col. Tartleton wrote:
I'd be okay with someone recasting their own models, but I think buying recasts from a third party is wrong. It's bad for the industry and bad for people conducting business in general.

Games Workshop is not "the industry."
But, perhaps that would be an interesting question to ask: is it only OK to recast GW product, or are Privateer Press and Infinity fair game, too?
I have no problems with GW recasts (I suspect some of my Ebay too-good-to-really-be-Finecast purchases may be recasts), but I am less OK with recasts of other companies' product.

It's an issue that's come up in a similar discussion, and the companies with a greater degree of goodwill than GW seem to illicit a stronger negative reaction with regard to purchasing recasts.

It certainly doesn't seem too much of a leap to see recasts as a viable way of denying GW your hobby dollar in protest at things which a person may disagree with, while not disrupting your own gaming (I advocate third party models, as not only does that withold cash from GW, but actually supports their competition with it too, but YMMV)

I just want to point out that some people like my "friend" buy recasts for the quality. The recast are much better quality then finecast with no bubbles or warping. Some just want a superior product.

Edit : I don't want to break technicalities.

 Rautakanki wrote:
I have something like ~1200€ worth of Orks, not counting books, terrain etc, and now I'd really like two gorkanauts, some tankbustas, some meganobz and flash gitz, one more psyker and some mek gunz and we're talking 700€ more aren't we. So where can I get these fabled good quality recasts? Lol.

Sorry dude, we aren't allowed to tell you, in fact, you've technically broken forum rules by asking....

I don't have a problem with redistribution of intellectual property. I do, however, have a problem with people who sell redistributed intellectual property for their own profit. See, if you make a copy for your own personal use, and in the absence of being able to make your own copy you just would have done without, there is no harm done. But when you give money to someone who has no connection to the creators of the work that you could have otherwise given to the creators, I feel like that person you're buying from has pretty much stolen that money from the creators.

I've bought a few models on ebay I'm sure we're recasts. Recently I bought a FW great unclean one for my son. It was $100. My son really wanted to field a GUO so I jumped on it. When it arrived it was obvious that it was not the greyish FW resin. More of a white, soapy looking resin. It happens. I wouldn't buy directly from a Chinese knock off store due to being scared of my credit card getting messed with. But seriously. If these companies can recast for this cheap, maybe GW should start making their product a little cheaper and selling it for a little cheaper. If the stuff was cheaper I would buy way more of it straight from GW.

But since I buy mostly hand me downs from ebay. I'm quite content.

Also, what's the difference between a recast and a GW model on Ebay? GW makes no money from the resold model and ultimately hurts them also.

Personally I like the digital interactive codexes but if I wanna study an opponents codex. I'll download the PDF on my cheapo computer.

I think people are missing the whole "intellectual property" idea. These sellers aren't stealing plastic, they're stealing hundreds of man hours and pure dedication put into sculpting awesome miniatures, and making a profit.

That being said I couldn't care less. If someone is buying cheap models for financial reasons then I am very happy they found a way to continue doing what they love. Who am I to judge?

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
I think people are missing the whole "intellectual property" idea. These sellers aren't stealing plastic, they're stealing hundreds of man hours and pure dedication put into sculpting awesome miniatures, and making a profit.

That being said I couldn't care less. If someone is buying cheap models for financial reasons then I am very happy they found a way to continue doing what they love. Who am I to judge?

This is, arguably, where GW differs from other companies, and may go somewhat towards explaining the differing attitude with regards to recasts. While I wouldn't even start to try and argue that GW sculptors love what they do, and pour there heart and soul into it, they're salaried, so they get paid if the model they design sells 10 or 10 000 copies.

Whereas the likes of Roberto Chaudon or Tre Manor who are out there doing their thing for themselves and other companies would be hurt directly by people recasting in a much more immediate way than the creatives at GW, who are insulated to a much greater degree.

Would you know? If it was a GW recast, probably not, but maybe. If it was a FW one, the only way you could tell is that all the pieces wouldn't be warped and there would be smaller mould lines than normal because the Chinese/Russian guy who did the job bothered to clean it up and do QC before hurling it into a cardboard box.

This is a recast (not mine, unfortunately). These things can be amazingly high quality. I have zero issue with it, and have actually been looking into it for a little while now. GW have plenty to dislike, but I invite everyone having doubts to have a look at the Chapterhouse proceedings, wherein they claim ownership of such vague concepts as "tentacly, monstrous sort of head" and insult their customers as "nerdy, geeky" people who "goober" over their stuff, and whose favourite activity is to "buy some product from Games Workshop".

The Dakka rules don't actually cover this, but I guess I have be careful with what I say, anyway. All I'll say is that Reddit, while I despise the place, is a good source of knowledge on the subject.

It was really nice opening my Reaver Titan box knowing I didnt have to spend the next week or so finishing FW's job of cleaning and straightening out the bits. Having nothing broken and more importantly getting it in a nice secure package (not some back with all the bits thrown in).

 greyknight12 wrote:
It's unethical because it's supporting intellectual property theft. It's no different than buying a Metallica CD from someone who bought one then re-burned it en-masse.

A good way to have your posts ignored is to intentionally use incorrect terms such as theft for emotive effect rather than the correct copyright infringement.

---

Buying recasts is very common in Australia due to GW regional pricing and our nearby communist friends. I, like many of us, know a good range of recasters and not only are some of them as good as originals, some are actually better - for example, Tyranid Bio Titans were recast with wire in the legs to strengthen them, making the recast product superior to the original. Resin copies of failcast are also superior in my experience though staves are a common problem due to the brittle nature of resin. Another tactic that can be used with this is to buy legit bitz to go with recast stuff such as the cheap and often given away chain swords and bolt pistols to go on recast bodies which gives you cheap bodies that don't suffer the weakness of thin resin weapons. Also works well for large hull sections for vehicles that are prone to warping as resin.

The only company that has a wide range of recasters copying their stuff is GW, because GWs prices (and practices) are bad enough that people say "feth you GW" out of spite as much or more than wanting cheaper products. If I could get recast Mantic stuff for half the (already cheap) price I wouldn't do it because Mantic is a great company, and most supporters of recast GW stuff I know are the same.

Look, in the US making the recasts isn't illegal, selling them is.So trade!

I am much more interested in the quality of the player than the quality(or legitimacy) of his models really.

With the kind of FW prices, I can understand if some would get recasts. Not everybody has that much cash to spare.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So yes I'd play with those who own recasts.

I have no problem playing people who use recasts.

What I do have a problem with is when those people (excessively) use those recasts in their FLGS. I firmly believe that you should pay where you play, so they can stay in business.

 milkboy wrote:
With the kind of FW prices, I can understand if some would get recasts. Not everybody has that much cash to spare.

Due to regional pricing, FW is ~= to GW in Australia. Marneus Calgar is $US95 here so yeah... ni hao GW. Ni hao.

 Cheexsta wrote:
What I do have a problem with is when those people (excessively) use those recasts in their FLGS. I firmly believe that you should pay where you play, so they can stay in business.

I firmly believe shops should rent tablespace rather than guilt people into paying more for their products than they otherwise would (I don't play at shops though). This is especially important as you know in Australia due to GW regional pricing. By enforcing buying locally, you're enforcing GW regional pricing which needs to be stopped at all costs as it damages the local scene more than buying internationally.

Depends.
I'd probably play one game regardless, however I'd avoid them in the future. I don't like to support pirates of miniatures or their customers, no matter if it's GW or some small independent.

Exceptions would be.
-OOP models, if the company no longer makes them, then I have less problem with recasting.
-Self recasting. The person has already bought one, so I don't see the harm in making "copies for personal use".

I realize the two exceptions are grey areas, but they're lines I choose anyway.

I say we burn this capitalistic system down to the melon-fething ground starting with GW.

Viva LA RECASTS!!!


No seriously, someone made the point that how many Privateer Press recasts do you see or other miniature companies. I mean when you price yourself out of the reach of your average customer what do you expect to happen. If someone can point me to a miniature gaming company that is getting pirated other than GW please do I'm sure it does happen, but I can tell you there's not some dimly lit shack on the river bank in some Chinese province cranking out knock off Perry Miniatures.

I straight up only buy EBAY and used because of the prices. I'd have no problem buying recasts either.

Maybe it's because of the apparent disgust , scorn , and outright hostility the company seems to have towards people who actually play the game instead of just buy miniatures I'd have a different opinion. I'm not invested in GW.

I'm invested in playing 40k and using that setting and rules because it's familiar to me, I've played it for 20+ years, enjoy the stuff that great writers actually came up with. Sorry but at this point GW is just lame necromancer when it comes to their rules and fluff.

I really don't care.

Piracy for PC games is a "service problem" according to Gabe Newell of steam. People mostly pirate due to things like DRM screwing legitimate users and not pirates, lack of availibility in regions, poor clients like uPlay and so on. Steam with its acceptable DRM and added features makes buying legitimate games a better proposition even though you can get the same thing for free. It's probably a similar thing with miniatures - there's no DRM screwing players, but failcast, poor rules, and general poor policies makes people really not want to support GW. Other miniature companies do not suffer this problem.

Yeah, you figure out why GW is one of the largest pirated miniatures ( I'm sure like Gundam or something is actually the largest) for wargaming and you'll point yourself directly to what is wrong with the whole damn company.


Someone literally knows that a Miniature Wargaming Company with probably a MAX customer service base of like 250K at Most it's probably super lower like in the 50s world wide , has gained such ire with it's own customer base that they sometimes actively seek out recasts.

That's ridiculous.

 Yonan wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
It's unethical because it's supporting intellectual property theft. It's no different than buying a Metallica CD from someone who bought one then re-burned it en-masse.

A good way to have your posts ignored is to intentionally use incorrect terms such as theft for emotive effect rather than the correct copyright infringement.

A good way to show that you're grasping at straws is to dismiss a person's argument on semantics. But, since you care so much: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/white_collar/ipr/ipr
The US Federal Bureau of Investigation defines what you are describing as "intellectual property theft". It's a term used by people who feel that use of another's intellectual property without permission is a form of stealing, while others prefer the less harsh "copyright infringement". They are the same thing; in fact copyright infringement is just one type of intellectual property theft.

Recasting models and selling them without permission is the same as duplicating an album, a video game, or a car without permission and selling it. Robin Hood arguments aside, you can't somehow say that one or some is ok while others are not. And if you say that copyright infringement is fine, then you reject the premise that ideas and creative expression belong to the entity that originated them, be it an individual artist, a band or even an international corporation. It's a right given by society, and if you reject the right of Games Workshop to own their ideas then you've also rejected the right of Metallica to own their songs. If you think it's a right, you don't get to pick and choose. If it's not a right, then you might as well start copying and reselling BMWs too, maybe throw in some Linkin Park for good measure.

I'd really hate to see my intellectual property and sold for someone else's profit, so I don't think recasting is ok. Call it whatever you want, but it's still wrong.

greyknight12 wrote:
In the US, making those copies is illegal.

greyknight12 wrote:
A good way to show that you're grasping at straws is to dismiss a person's argument on semantics. But, since you care so much: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/white_collar/ipr/ipr
The US Federal Bureau of Investigation defines what you are describing as "intellectual property theft". It's a term used by people who feel that use of another's intellectual property without permission is a form of stealing, while others prefer the less harsh "copyright infringement". They are the same thing; in fact copyright infringement is just one type of intellectual property theft.

Recasting models and selling them without permission is the same as duplicating an album, a video game, or a car without permission and selling it. Robin Hood arguments aside, you can't somehow say that one or some is ok while others are not. And if you say that copyright infringement is fine, then you reject the premise that ideas and creative expression belong to the entity that originated them, be it an individual artist, a band or even an international corporation. It's a right given by society, and if you reject the right of Games Workshop to own their ideas then you've also rejected the right of Metallica to own their songs. If you think it's a right, you don't get to pick and choose. If it's not a right, then you might as well start copying and reselling BMWs too, maybe throw in some Linkin Park for good measure.

I'd really hate to see my intellectual property and sold for someone else's profit, so I don't think recasting is ok. Call it whatever you want, but it's still wrong.

So, whiteknight....which of your statements that I've highlighted is correct.

Many would view your making inconsistent claims about the law as reason for questioning your credibility or to suspect that you are the one grasping at straws.