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Made in gb
Speedy Swiftclaw Biker





St. Albans, Herts, UK

Davor wrote:
Again to the OP. What is wrong? What are you going to say when someone is using Privateer Press, or Vallejo paints instead of GW paints?

Heaven forbid if someone is not using GW paint brushes.

How about people who don't use GW glue?

When does it stop? Where does it start?


It's not analogous as paints/tools made by different companies are not rip-off's of other people's intellectual property and products.

I would play him, I would ask where he got them. I wouldn't really care, maybe look to save myself some money also. If GW don't want to be undercut they need to stop charging £15 ($25...) for a single plastic figure....

Back in the day, we were epic Space Vikings with horns, and beer, and stupid mockney accents, and we didn't have any truck with this flying around like a pansy shizzle. We certainly didn't surround ourselves with mangy animals.

Now we're basically the Bestiality Chapter.

We also now ride chariots and employ daemonic dreadnoughts...also, we fly and teleport with abandon. With wolves. 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Without providing any links, 4chan's a good place to start. That place has no morals, no decency and no sense of humanity.


Ha so thats why reading it always gave me the warm feeling of belonging.

As for recasts, some Forge World prices are actualy nothing short of insane. I dont know how they calculate them but even if projected sales come into the equation, the price never drops despite the fact that (I guess) many kits exceeded the number. If they just pull the number out of ass eg because its big then well, sorry people I love your sculpts but 100 pounds + for GUO thats going to be pirated to heaven and back until all the angels of copyright choke on fresh vapors of cheap mold release agent. People love their mnis but cant afford them or even justify such money for a miniature and thats it. Its not a good justification but thats how it works. Id love to buy titans stormravens or big daemons straight from FW but to be able to justify such spendings Id have to be times richer than I am now, and Im not really that poor. Truth be told even recast of FW seem expensive at times, thats how ridiculous some of their prices are.

Also Im amazed about the number of people I meet that pirate GW with proud eye and express sense of achievement doing it heh. Its almost like pirating Windows, a natural thing to do. Quite telling about general love for GW.

From the initial Age of Sigmar news thread, when its "feature" list was first confirmed:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It's like a train wreck. But one made from two circus trains colliding.

A collosal, terrible, flaming, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spraying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.

How could I look away?

 
   
Made in us
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






Honestly with the customer loyalty and general level of care GW has shown these last years, not only would I not mind, I would PREFER someone wasent giving them any money. Don't reward bad behavior people.

warhammer 40k mmo. If I can drive an ork trukk into the back of a space marine dread and explode in a fireball of epic, I can die happy!

8k points
3k points
3k points
Admech 2.5k points
 
   
Made in gr
Sneaky Sniper Drone





Depends how many are and quality
if they are like original and are from the "expensive ones" then im ok, THEY ARE NOT MINE MODELS . so even if i dont have recast its my choice.rules matter no models. I see it same as i use ultra marines as BA in some battles because my BA arent many.

Now if he has all his modes and are awfull quality i would said that his models are problematic ect.... but i think i will play with him in the end , as its a game

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/16 19:42:20


 
   
Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




 welshhoppo wrote:
Right, say you have a friend at your FLGS or local club and you know that he uses recasts. These are not the cheap 'I'm sure it looks like a Land Raider if you look at it from this angle and use your imagination' ones either, this stuff looks like the real deal. The kind that you would only know it is fake if he told you himself.

Would you play against this guy knowing that he is undercutting the hobby or would you not?


He's not 'undercutting the hobby'. He's reacting to GW's prices and attitude toward their customers. GW created the recast market with their decisions. Now they have to deal with it.

Ask yourself this: if GW could 'undercut' you, taking mobey from you that they shouldnt - do you think they would? Damn right they would, and if you look close enough you can see that they already do.

As for your question, idgaf what models people use, as long as they meet a realistic standard so as not to ruin immersion.
   
Made in gb
Gavin Thorpe




I don't think there is any way you could try and claim that you have some kind of moral high-ground by using recasts, or that GW deserves it for selling their products. Ultimately it's an unnecessary item that they want to sell for a higher price than you think is justified. In the same way that an Apple is more expensive for no real reason, or a fancy car. They don't owe you an affordable hobby and if they feel that 10 plastic space soldiers is worth £40 then that's all there is to it. You can either pay what they ask or look elsewhere. The recast market exists because people want products for cheaper than the usual price, and are willing to ignore the law / efforts of the producer in order to get them. There is no moral superiority to be found and it is not justice against an evil corporation.

For my own part, I don't use recasts because I can afford to pay the real prices, and because I don't want to give away my financial information to someone who is clearly flouting the law. But I don't begrudge other people for not holding the same viewpoint. All I want is an opponent on the other side of the table who is willing to make a game of it, regardless of how expensive his army was.
But I am not going to indulge any fantasies that they are fighting for lower prices on a board game. They wanted a particular shape of plastic, didn't think it was worth the full prie, so they took shortcuts. There is nothing more to it than that.

WarOne wrote:
At the very peak of his power, Mat Ward stood at the top echelons of the GW hierarchy, second only to Satan in terms of personal power within the company.
 
   
Made in gr
Sneaky Sniper Drone





Mozzamanx wrote:
I don't think there is any way you could try and claim that you have some kind of moral high-ground by using recasts, or that GW deserves it for selling their products. Ultimately it's an unnecessary item that they want to sell for a higher price than you think is justified. In the same way that an Apple is more expensive for no real reason, or a fancy car. They don't owe you an affordable hobby and if they feel that 10 plastic space soldiers is worth £40 then that's all there is to it. You can either pay what they ask or look elsewhere. The recast market exists because people want products for cheaper than the usual price, and are willing to ignore the law / efforts of the producer in order to get them. There is no moral superiority to be found and it is not justice against an evil corporation.


and dont forget that GW has to pay peaple to make the models and other copyright issues when recast copy do them whth 0 need for ther money more than "make" them

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/16 20:06:31


 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

Mozzamanx wrote:
The recast market exists because people want products for cheaper than the usual price, and are willing to ignore the law / efforts of the producer in order to get them.


No, the recast market exists because the primary retailer has allowed so much headroom in the pricing that there is sufficient space for someone to go to the trouble of making them, sell them at a substantial discount and still make a profit.

We know for a fact that GW's cost of production is ~20% of final RRP, so the "production costs" argument is a bit of a fallacy (because they include development ie sculpting as part of these costs.) The fact is, if they weren't haemorrhaging volume in the way they appear to be because of all the other mistakes they've made, and didn't have the massive cost millstone of the store network to service, they could comfortably price match, even undercut, what your typical recaster appears to charge. The fact is, if they had better PR, they wouldn't need to, as customers who now are perhaps buying recasts would, I'd argue, not only buy from GW but pay a premium (within reason) to support the company.

It wouldn't matter how many people wanted cheap products if there was no viable way to offer them on a commercial basis, the fact that there is is entirely within GW's hands.


For my own part, I don't use recasts because I can afford to pay the real prices, and because I don't want to give away my financial information to someone who is clearly flouting the law.


Most recasters that I'm aware of either sell through a third party with similar protections to eBay, or accept only PayPal, while the usual caveats would apply for buying online, the risk of having your data stolen doesn't appear to be one of them.

In fact, I recently purchased a legitimate item from one of the sites known for selling recasts. I paid, and shortly afterwards received a dispatch email with tracking.

A few days ago, I received an email from the site (not the seller) stating that they had detected suspicious activity on he sellers account, had frozen the order, and if they hadn't received sufficient info from the seller within 3 days, would be issuing a refund. Without any involvement from me whatsoever (it is still well within the delivery timeline, so my suspicions had not been raised for any reason.)

The myth that these sites are in any way shady or underhand is simply not true.

But I don't begrudge other people for not holding the same viewpoint. All I want is an opponent on the other side of the table who is willing to make a game of it, regardless of how expensive his army was.
But I am not going to indulge any fantasies that they are fighting for lower prices on a board game. They wanted a particular shape of plastic, didn't think it was worth the full prie, so they took shortcuts. There is nothing more to it than that.


Not strictly true, every pound spent on wargaming that doesn't go to GW will increase the pressure on them. I advocate the purchase from the competition, as that is almost like £2 of pressure for every £1 spent, but I understand why people may take the recast route.

There is an increasing body of evidence to demonstrate that GW management is fat, lazy, out of ideas, contemptuous of it's customers and rejoicing in it's ignorance. They have shut down almost every avenue of communication, and delight in the fact that they're not listening to their customers, therefore the only method open to a dissatisfied customer to send a message is to withhold cash they would have otherwise spent with GW. If one wishes to continue wargaming, then an alternate system would be a better choice, but it doesn't surprise me, nor do I condemn, that so,e may choose to buy GW models from a "not GW."

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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Made in gb
Gavin Thorpe




I'm simply saying that people need to be honest about why they are doing it. We aren't talking about Robin Hood stealing from an oppressive regime for the good of the people, we are talking about people wanting a Wraithknight for a third of the price. Games Workshop aren't evil or actively trying to hurt their fans, they are simply a badly-run company delusional about the value of their spacemen. I think people are just trying to justify their actions by pretending it is the moral thing to do, because they don't want to be the villain.
GW is a model company selling overpriced plastic, and third parties are stealing their work to make a profit. If this is profitable then it highlights how absurd the prices are, but it doesn't make them morally wrong nor does it make the third parties any less parasitic or illegal. Again, nobody is owed affordable models just like they aren't owed a nice house or computer. If people could pirate a Ferrari then they would, and I guarantee they'd try justifying to themselves by saying the car shouldn't be so expensive to start with.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/16 21:52:49


WarOne wrote:
At the very peak of his power, Mat Ward stood at the top echelons of the GW hierarchy, second only to Satan in terms of personal power within the company.
 
   
Made in nl
Loyal Necron Lychguard



Netherlands

Maybe people get defensive and start a moral discussion when they get called 'criminals' for doing something that is not illegal?

I got my Imperial Knight at one third of the original price and the quality is amazing.
So I am not going to feel sorry about that because I would have never bought that from GW.
And even if I did, it would be through a third-party seller and the "real heroes" (aka, the independent stores) wouldn't get anything for it.
I bought it, it went through customs, I paid some tax and I build my model. Personally I don't care about GW and I'm not going to feel bad for them because they didn't get 500 euro on top of the 250 I already spent on them.
   
Made in gb
Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

Got to pay for that fancy HQ of theres lol!

But honestly they could afford to discount. I only buy now via a local shop as 20% discount + 10% on orders.

Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

Mozzamanx wrote:
I'm simply saying that people need to be honest about why they are doing it.


They most likely are, but then people who disagree with their reasons misrepresent them.



We aren't talking about Robin Hood stealing from an oppressive regime for the good of the people, we are talking about people wanting a Wraithknight for a third of the price. Games Workshop aren't evil or actively trying to hurt their fans, they are simply a badly-run company delusional about the value of their spacemen. I think people are just trying to justify their actions by pretending it is the moral thing to do, because they don't want to be the villain.


Citation needed.

Seriously though, you've just gone and done what I mentioned in response to your first line. Who are you to declare what somebody else's reasoning for buying from a recaster is? You are just assuming everyone is solely motivated by price, when my personal impression talking to some people who buy recasts is that the price is almost a bonus, and the main motivation is not giving cash to a company whose actions they dislike while being able to continue with their hobby (so not cutting their nose off to spite their face.) Either way, declaring people's stated intentions as false with absolutely no basis in fact for doing so is not a good argument.



GW is a model company selling overpriced plastic, and third parties are stealing their work to make a profit. If this is profitable then it highlights how absurd the prices are, but it doesn't make them morally wrong nor does it make the third parties any less parasitic or illegal. Again, nobody is owed affordable models just like they aren't owed a nice house or computer. If people could pirate a Ferrari then they would, and I guarantee they'd try justifying to themselves by saying the car shouldn't be so expensive to start with.


Copyright and IP infringement is not theft, theft is criminal, infringement is not, let's get that straight, as a lot of people use a lot of emotive words to try and make their case, not necessarily accusing you, but it is like anyone criticising being labelled a "hater," use of emotive language muddies the debate.

People do pirate Ferraris


The car in the image is actually a Toyota MR2.

The difference is, of course, that this car would never compare favourably with the real thing, one could immediately tell where the costs had been cut, where things had been botched and improvised and once you got it moving, you'd be able to tell, perhaps even if you'd never driven the real thing.

Unfortunately for GW, it appears that many of their imitators don't suffer the same in such comparisons.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in fi
Boosting Space Marine Biker





I wouldn't mind at all. I've seen much worse cases, and accepted them as well - with a shrug.

Innocentia Nihil Probat.
Son of Dorn  
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






While I do not approve the recasts, I could probably still play, as I'm too polite to decline; might affect my enthusiasm to arrange a a game with them in the future though.

What I find most problematic in this thread, are the absurd ways the people try to justify the piratism. Sure, most of us have pirated one thing or another in our lives; I don't think it is right, but it is not some huge sin either, and it is perfectly understandable that it happens. However, trying to paint this as some Robin-Hood-style activism is just pathetic and frankly, somewhat disgusting. You pirated an unnecessary luxury product because you were too cheap to pay for the real thing, and that's it.



   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





What exactly are you saying? The thing that you say we all pirated at one stage of our lives was a necessity and we did what we had to to survive? Not seeing the difference inside the distinction your post is attempting

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 SHUPPET wrote:
What exactly are you saying? The thing that you say we all pirated at one stage of our lives was a necessity and we did what we had to to survive?

Survive? Who ever needed to pirate anything to survive? Pretty much none of the things people pirate are necessities, they're entertainment and luxury products.

Not seeing the difference inside the distinction your post is attempting

Most of us have been cheap and selfish in some point of our lives, it is human, not OK, definitely not laudable, but no one is perfect. My point was that trying to paint your selfish behaviour as some sort of heroic activism is just sad.

   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





There's nothing heroic about it IMO and I haven't seen many people claiming they are doing gods work or are on a piracy crusade to make the world a better place. It would seem the point most are using is that they want to play their hobby but don't want to support the business behind it, whether that's morally dishonest doesn't seem at all relevant to anything here, if the sentiment that GW doesn't deserve money is a common one, then people are not going to support their outlandish prices, simple as that, so when they find a way participate in their same hobby outside of GWs monopoly then that's what they will do, morally correct or not. I've seen very little posts of people claiming to be some sort of hero for doing it, more so just statements that it doesn't affect them morally and if GW expects such sums of money they should earn it.

I personally feel like every dollar not given to GW is an achievement, maybe it's out of spite for the company but i personally cannot wait till the day it collapses and they stop making the game worse with lackluster releases and increasingly poorly written rules. Maybe the choice to support piracy against GW makes my actions morally unsound, all I know is that I'm the guy with the 6 discshelves of physical music releases who constantly tells people to support their favourite artists. I'm unwilling to support poor releases with my dollar. I guess the counter argument "well then you should sit them out and not play" but at this stage it's like nah, for the sake of my prior investment and being able to continue to use it, I need parts of the newer releases to do so, and without being willing to actually put my dollar to it to GW, well man will find a way. I'm fine with you thinking it makes me greedy, I'm neither that nor heroic, you just fail to understand our perspective. I've never once bought from a recaster because I'm uneasy about the quality, materials and guarantees of such suppliers - thus all my new model needs are conversions and kitbashes or third party miniatures and I often end up spending the same amount or more to avoid buying from GW, however I fully support anyone's decision to buy recasts if the standard suits them. GW as a business is destroying the game I love from a rules standpoint while raising prices for the detriment of product and milking customers for every cent from a business perspective, and as such I refuse to put my dollar to their name and am eagerly awaiting the day they crumble.

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in gb
Stabbin' Skarboy





armagedon

You can play who you want its a game - what's much more damaging is this insane attitude towards GW by part of the community acting like zealots for no reason...

A lot of the smaller company's exist purely because there are bigger ones that open up markets for people that the smaller company could never afford to support.
when GW dies a hell of a lot of other companies and one man bands go with it. GW has expensive prices but they are far from insane having worked in high end retail for many a decade 2/3rds margins is very common. its dropping nowadays to 1/3 margin but still on luxury or niche products 2/3rds is still very common. The miniature companies everyone lauds as so much cheaper than GW don't actively work internationally like GW they don't have shops that they do nor do they branch into so many other business lines they don't produce magazines weekly or product at a speed or quality of plastic. There are some great miniatures companies out there but there are also some really quite shoddy ones which produce models I still love but the materials and the casts suck that's just the level of business they are at, it doesn't stop me buying there stuff nor does it stop me buying GW because they happen to be having 1/4 to 1/2 again more expensive models or a lot of the time the same cost, not that a lot of people except it. How many of the complainers have no issue buying premium Coca-Cola or cigarettes, beers from a pub for like £3 a pint or a pizza from the take out for £10-£15 or more are they worth it?! Do you all give a F about star bucks and mc Donald's or massive pharmaceutical companies? nope! but to hell with the evil that is GW!!!

Recasting is totally not the fault of high priced first hand producers like GW more to the case that nocking off expensive items is most profitable as it draws a larger audience, it is the fault of the pirates and the community that supports it.

So what do we have in the end?!
GW not evil just poorly run and unsure of its self always testing the water hoping such a large company can last in such a tiny market.
People buying recasts just wanna save a little but not thinking about the long term of there actions and should try and mix it up a bit and not just buy from the thieves.
Recasters are thieves they aren't robin hood they want money they arnt going to set up a legitimate business.

3500pts1500pts2500pts4500pts3500pts2000pts 2000pts plus several small AOS armies  
   
Made in au
Oberstleutnant






Perth, West Australia

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
blather that's already been addressed

I'd reply to all this but it's already been addressed in the thread repeatedly. I'll just state that you're basically wrong on all counts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/17 16:33:07


 
   
Made in nl
Loyal Necron Lychguard



Netherlands

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
So what do we have in the end?!
GW not evil just poorly run and unsure of its self always testing the water hoping such a large company can last in such a tiny market.
People buying recasts just wanna save a little but not thinking about the long term of there actions and should try and mix it up a bit and not just buy from the thieves.
Recasters are thieves they aren't robin hood they want money they arnt going to set up a legitimate business.
Ooh, wow. I just have to respond to this!

"Our market is a niche market made up of people who want to collect our miniatures. They tend to be male, middle-class, discerning teenagers and adults. We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose in a niche."
-Games Workshop
1) So please, don't complain that they have such a tiny market when that is 100% their own fault.
2) I don't buy recasts because I want to save a little. If the difference was 'a little' I would buy from Games Workshop. We're talking about a 60% discount!
3) They are not thieves. You might not like it, you might even hate it and think it's immoral. But I am not breaking any law from my country and neither is my recaster breaking a law in his country.

And the cause of all of this? GW being poorly run.
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

 Crimson wrote:
While I do not approve the recasts, I could probably still play, as I'm too polite to decline; might affect my enthusiasm to arrange a a game with them in the future though.

What I find most problematic in this thread, are the absurd ways the people try to justify the piratism. Sure, most of us have pirated one thing or another in our lives; I don't think it is right, but it is not some huge sin either, and it is perfectly understandable that it happens. However, trying to paint this as some Robin-Hood-style activism is just pathetic and frankly, somewhat disgusting. You pirated an unnecessary luxury product because you were too cheap to pay for the real thing, and that's it.


Yet again, somebody presumes to ascribe reasons other than stated to someone else's actions from atop their high horse with absolutely no evidence to support their reasoning.

Careful you don't hurt yourself climbing down from there, sport.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Azreal13 wrote:

Yet again, somebody presumes to ascribe reasons other than stated to someone else's actions from atop their high horse with absolutely no evidence to support their reasoning.

Careful you don't hurt yourself climbing down from there, sport.


My horse is quite comfortable height, thank you.

There were number of people in this thread who were justifying the piratism by saying that it is OK because GW is such a horrible company and thought is was a way to fight corporate tyranny or something like that. It's just such bull. If GW was a sole provider of essential medicine, then pirating their products because their prices are too high would be justified, even laudable. They sell expensive toy soldiers for feths sake. If you're too cheap to buy their products and rather pirate them, just say so. Trying to justify it is pathetic.

   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

No, there are a number of people in this thread explaining the reasons why they, personally, buy recasts or understand those who choose to. You have then declared all those reasons to be redundant and invalid, because you say so.

You are not entitled to call other people's motivations false just because you don't agree.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in gb
Stabbin' Skarboy





armagedon

Yonan wrote:
 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
blather that's already been addressed

I'd reply to all this but it's already been addressed in the thread repeatedly. I'll just state that you're basically wrong on all counts.


I see how you did that with your rude clipping of quoted text, I bow down to you. Now you can feel better about your self huh?!

Kangodo wrote:
 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
So what do we have in the end?!
GW not evil just poorly run and unsure of its self always testing the water hoping such a large company can last in such a tiny market.
People buying recasts just wanna save a little but not thinking about the long term of there actions and should try and mix it up a bit and not just buy from the thieves.
Recasters are thieves they aren't robin hood they want money they arnt going to set up a legitimate business.
Ooh, wow. I just have to respond to this!

"Our market is a niche market made up of people who want to collect our miniatures. They tend to be male, middle-class, discerning teenagers and adults. We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose in a niche."
-Games Workshop
1) So please, don't complain that they have such a tiny market when that is 100% their own fault.
2) I don't buy recasts because I want to save a little. If the difference was 'a little' I would buy from Games Workshop. We're talking about a 60% discount!
3) They are not thieves. You might not like it, you might even hate it and think it's immoral. But I am not breaking any law from my country and neither is my recaster breaking a law in his country.

And the cause of all of this? GW being poorly run.


Um how does them knowing it's a niche change anything? Also how are recasters (who sell) not thieves? If you made a product like hmm say a movie or computer sw and I sold copies am I not stealing your ip? I don't care if china has no laws against this. A obvious crime a crime. This thread is full of people trying to justify stuff to them selves enjoy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/18 11:01:34


3500pts1500pts2500pts4500pts3500pts2000pts 2000pts plus several small AOS armies  
   
Made in hr
Boosting Black Templar Biker




Croatia

 Paradigm wrote:

When it comes down to it, my policy with models/rules/counts-as/anything game related is 'if you're a decent guy, then anything goes. If you're a git, feth off'.

this, pretty much

AFTER A THOUSAND EXAMS ONE ONLY SEES FAILURE!
2000

2500 
   
Made in nl
Loyal Necron Lychguard



Netherlands

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
Um how does them knowing it's a niche change anything? Also how are recasters (who sell) not thieves? If you made a product like hmm say a movie or computer sw and I sold copies am I not stealing your ip? I don't care if china has no laws against this. A obvious crime a crime. This thread is full of people trying to justify stuff to them selves enjoy.

Because it's not a niche, it could be quite a big market if they actually knew how to get into that market.
But no, they simply refuse to do any market research because "people who want something else can feth off" seems to be their slogan.

"I don't care if a country has no laws against it!"
Well, I do care about that! As long as no laws are broken, everything is fine.
And if you disagree with that.. Well.. That sounds like you are criticising the Chinese government, I'm sure that's a crime over there.
Do you really think that calling people online 'criminals' is going to help you any bit in your crusade against recasting?
   
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Georgia

Would I play someone if I knew they were using recasts? Yes, it their decision and I cannot blame them for it. Ten years ago the hobby was expensive and its even more so today. Personally I own a single recast, I didn't buy it to hurt GW, I bought it because I found the price reasonable for what I was getting. Do I feel guilty or proud? No. Simply payed what I wanted for what I wanted.

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The enemies of Mankind may employ dark sciences or alien weapons beyond Humanity's ken, but such deviance comes to naught in the face of honest human intolerance back by a sufficient number of guns. 
   
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Devon, UK

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:


Spoiler:
Kangodo wrote:
 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
So what do we have in the end?!
GW not evil just poorly run and unsure of its self always testing the water hoping such a large company can last in such a tiny market.
People buying recasts just wanna save a little but not thinking about the long term of there actions and should try and mix it up a bit and not just buy from the thieves.
Recasters are thieves they aren't robin hood they want money they arnt going to set up a legitimate business.
Ooh, wow. I just have to respond to this!

"Our market is a niche market made up of people who want to collect our miniatures. They tend to be male, middle-class, discerning teenagers and adults. We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose in a niche."
-Games Workshop
1) So please, don't complain that they have such a tiny market when that is 100% their own fault.
2) I don't buy recasts because I want to save a little. If the difference was 'a little' I would buy from Games Workshop. We're talking about a 60% discount!
3) They are not thieves. You might not like it, you might even hate it and think it's immoral. But I am not breaking any law from my country and neither is my recaster breaking a law in his country.

And the cause of all of this? GW being poorly run.


Um how does them knowing it's a niche change anything? Also how are recasters (who sell) not thieves? If you made a product like hmm say a movie or computer sw and I sold copies am I not stealing your ip? I don't care if china has no laws against this. A obvious crime a crime. This thread is full of people trying to justify stuff to them selves enjoy.


Recasters are not thieves because IP infringement is not theft. If someone buys a recast Thunderhawk from China, one doesn't mystically disappear from the shelves in the Forge World stock cupboard in Nottingham. Theft is kind of contingent on someone taking property they don't own from someone else, recasting is not this. Theft is a criminal offence, IP infringement is a civil one.

People who call recasters thieves are doing so because it is a loaded, emotive term that they feel somehow reinforces their point. That they are committing an act that is against the law in most Western legal systems is beyond debate, but to call them thieves is objectively untrue.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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The Beach

 welshhoppo wrote:
Right, say you have a friend at your FLGS or local club and you know that he uses recasts. These are not the cheap 'I'm sure it looks like a Land Raider if you look at it from this angle and use your imagination' ones either, this stuff looks like the real deal. The kind that you would only know it is fake if he told you himself.

Would you play against this guy knowing that he is undercutting the hobby or would you not?
He's not technically undercutting the "hobby", just Games Workshop.

And the reality is that if these recasts have as much traction as they do, it's a sign that Games Workshop has priced themselves out of the market for a fair number of customers. That, combined with Finecast and Forgeworld's poor reputation for quality, I am not at all surprised that people will opt for lower priced alternatives.

I inadvertently purchased a knock-off FW bit off EBay before I realized how prevalent the market was for them. I won't lie, the quality was on par with what I'd have demanded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I won't lie, that's actually pretty impressive. I mean, it's a huge waste of money, and it's not going to fool anyone other than some dumb drunk college girl, but hey, it's a massive improvement on the MR2, lol.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/18 14:53:54


Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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Selling counterfeit products is a criminal offence in Canada and the United States and I think it is considered a criminal offence in UK , I remember that in 2009 I think the London Police did a huge anti counterfeit sweeps in some of the really popular markets in the city.

   
 
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