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Rx8Speed wrote:
I've been running two of them and no one has complained yet about the shield being OP, really they are good at ONE thing, shooting down light vehicles or side armor in cover. They're not great at shooting anything with a decent armor save. What people actually complain about is the 3+ cover save. Besides the wave serpent is the only tank the eldar can get with real dakka. No one complains about the battle wagons that fire a handful of shots and the the 20 boys who get 40 shots from inside. Personally I would rather have that. Rhinos are like 50pts so really there's no point comparing rhinos and wave serpents. Eldar and Space marines are so different that any comparisons between the two armies are usually irrelevant.

Yeah, it's actually just 35 base for a rhino or pod. 50 for a rhino gets you 2 storm bolters and a dozer blade to reroll terrain tests, meaning they get 4+ saves in ruins without jinking or losing a hull point 97% of the time. I'd love to counts-as my wave serpents for rhinos with a 75% point drop, much less be able to stick wraith scythes in a drop pod

I've been in a lot of these discussions.

When balancing something, if it underperformed, it gets buff. If it over performed, it gets a nerf.

Some people think the Serpent should be removed from the game, just outright lose the Shield, or become AV11. these ideas seem to be about as popular as not nerfing it at all.

Eldar need a transport to field any forward-moving troops aside from Wraith and Jet bikes. T3 is cannon fodder toughness. 4+ and 5+ just doesn't protect them. They aren't as cheap as Guard, and Eldar infantry are almost all 18" range, or shorter. And the Falcon simply can't fill that role. We need a fast AV12 DT with some sort of pen-protection (explosions and immobilizes hurt Eldar far more than Marines). Enter the Serpent.

Where the Serpent went wrong is in having the firepower to pull gunline duty. And that comes from the Serpent Shield.

The Falcon can move small Aspect squads, but is too pricy to put in harms way.

The Serpent outperforms the Falcon easily as a gunboat on most targets, and that's a problem (The Falcon has less dakka *per model* than a trilas Pred, but costs more).

For a points comparison, instead of a Chimera or a Pred, wouldn't a Devilfish be more appropriate?

Devilfishes are 80 pts stock 12/12/10 skimmer transports with 2 drones.

Wave serpents have Fast and Serpent Shields for 115 stock.

So:
+Shield
+Fast
-Drones

35 points.

Drones are, what, 12ppm? That makes Fast and Sheild cost 59 points. That is a lot.

And Devilfish are considered bad.

Bharring wrote:

For a points comparison, instead of a Chimera or a Pred, wouldn't a Devilfish be more appropriate?

Devilfishes are 80 pts stock 12/12/10 skimmer transports with 2 drones.

Wave serpents have Fast and Serpent Shields for 115 stock.

So:
+Shield
+Fast
-Drones

35 points.

Drones are, what, 12ppm? That makes Fast and Sheild cost 59 points. That is a lot.

But that implies the Wave Serpent is reasonably priced! Heresy! Woe! Lamentation! We need to "balance" it into the ground, not review our own lists for counters and you know, adapt to a two year old codex (still no Illic FAQ? Arrrgh!). Because... Schrodinger's Wave Serpent!

The Devilfish probably is a better analogy come to think of it though. Thanks for using an actual comparison vs a cry of woe to back up your point. Better to argue about specific point costs per specific rule than a hand waving of woe as if it all exists in a monotonic state.

The Serpent isn't as bad as most complainers.

I had an irate opponent once in 6th who thought one av12 with a 4+ cover was broken, while he had two LRBTs sitting in front of a 4+ power field.

On the other hand, I had far too many rofflestomps when I used to field two of them. And if you look at most tournies, 4+ serpents is a staple of the top brackets.

By lumping all complaining in with the SWS comments, all you're really doing is throwing gasoline on the strawman. More flame, but no substance.

Bharring wrote:
The overwhelming majority feel the Serpent needs a nerf.

Most feel it needs its shooting toned down.

The most popular method involves dropping range.

Most support seems to put it in the 12-24 range.

If I had the choice, I'd drop the range to 6".

Simple, and changes the Serpent from a gunboat to a support/transport role. Might deserve a point drop for this, but Eldar can make do.

A better, but more involved, solution would be a 12" torrent (heavy 1 of course, but still s7 pinning). Fits the fluff better, and compares more appropriately between hitting vehicles and infantry.

I am convinced that the 60" was always a typo and the range should have been 6" to begin with. It's a shield that shoots it's energy farther than a lascannon. That makes no sense at all.

Warmonger2757 wrote:



I am convinced that the 60" was always a typo and the range should have been 6" to begin with. It's a shield that shoots it's energy farther than a lascannon. That makes no sense at all.

naw it was definitely intentional. The shield basically shooting a powerful but dispersed wave of energy about 6" (table top distance) in front of it that disrupts incoming fire. When it is being deactivated, it releases all of this energy in a focused burst from a firing point which can easily be seen on the forge world wave serpent (link to pic below) and I believe is beside the shuriken cannon on the gw waveserpent

http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.morsla.net%2Fgallery%2Fmain.php%253Fg2_view%253Dcore.DownloadItem%2526g2_itemId%253D244%2526g2_serialNumber%253D2&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.morsla.net%2Fgallery%2Fmain.php%3Fg2_itemId%3D242&h=452&w=640&tbnid=XdTN00CoKzL6nM%3A&zoom=1&docid=k07-OCf6AatKJM&ei=zIgcVMK_JJSwyATWnIDgDQ&tbm=isch&ved=0CFoQMygzMDM&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=528&page=3&start=39&ndsp=22

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

Rx8Speed wrote:
I've been running two of them and no one has complained yet about the shield being OP, really they are good at ONE thing, shooting down light vehicles or side armor in cover. They're not great at shooting anything with a decent armor save. What people actually complain about is the 3+ cover save. Besides the wave serpent is the only tank the eldar can get with real dakka. No one complains about the battle wagons that fire a handful of shots and the the 20 boys who get 40 shots from inside. Personally I would rather have that. Rhinos are like 50pts so really there's no point comparing rhinos and wave serpents. Eldar and Space marines are so different that any comparisons between the two armies are usually irrelevant.

Yeah, it's actually just 35 base for a rhino or pod. 50 for a rhino gets you 2 storm bolters and a dozer blade to reroll terrain tests, meaning they get 4+ saves in ruins without jinking or losing a hull point 97% of the time. I'd love to counts-as my wave serpents for rhinos with a 75% point drop, much less be able to stick wraith scythes in a drop pod

Except of course you are firing at them with chesse shield guns and ignoring the cover at 60" range nop less with a gun that is specifically defined as a weaponm of last resort??

Serpents are broken, totally broken - so much so I will not field them in my Eldar army.

but hey - if broken units help you win games..........

 Mr Morden wrote:
Serpents are broken, totally broken - so much so I will not field them in my Eldar army.

Or you could, you know just not fire the shield.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Serpents are broken, totally broken - so much so I will not field them in my Eldar army.

Or you could, you know just not fire the shield.

or they could, you know be fixed to make them balanced choices and have one or more other DT options......