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Also the single wound infantry thing isn't as good as it used to be with all the auto point clouds, covering fires, creeping barrages, soul storms, large AOEs, and chain lightning type Attacks showing up more and more. I'd love to see your 10pts of Cryx infantry try to kill a Gatorman Battle Engine. They're going to Have to start fielding more Warjacks/Cavalry/Battle Engines to compete.

What are you talking about? Single-wound infantry are fantastic. I'd love to see your Gatormen battle engine survive a charge from six points of Last Standed Praetorian Swordsmen (Or even four points worth, I only need to get four Praetorians into melee with your battle engine to destroy it)

 AnomanderRake wrote:
What are you talking about? Single-wound infantry are fantastic. I'd love to see your Gatormen battle engine survive a charge from six points of Last Standed Praetorian Swordsmen (Or even four points worth, I only need to get four Praetorians into melee with your battle engine to destroy it)

Except while the Battle Engine has 1 or more souls, and it always will, the Swordsmen will die before they get to swing. Its got Soulstorm, so any model which enters or ends its movement within 2" of it takes an automatic point of damage.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
What are you talking about? Single-wound infantry are fantastic. I'd love to see your Gatormen battle engine survive a charge from six points of Last Standed Praetorian Swordsmen (Or even four points worth, I only need to get four Praetorians into melee with your battle engine to destroy it)

Except while the Battle Engine has 1 or more souls, and it always will, the Swordsmen will die before they get to swing. Its got Soulstorm, so any model which enters or ends its movement within 2" of it takes an automatic point of damage.

Meh. You're fighting Zaal so the only souls you're going to get are the d3 at the start of the turn if you had none (so you can either use none of your abilities or leave yourself open to being killed by Praetorians), and this is a four point unit that's going to die at the end of the turn to Last Stand anyway. More souls to send a Titan in under the feat with, I guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(9 points is a bit much for one Rapid Fire d3 POW 13 gun)

The Vault can collect friendly souls too. It doesn't necessarily need enemy souls. And D3 a turn is plenty.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Vault can collect friendly souls too. It doesn't necessarily need enemy souls. And D3 a turn is plenty.

Honestly a bigger problem with the plan is that Zaal gets to pick where any souls go but the Gators have very little else that collects souls and all Skorne's soul-collection is based on friendlies, so the Vault is usually going to be the only eligible model when dead Gators are involved.

(If you were relying on just the d3 a turn and you died if you ended your turn with zero you would be pretty boned)

IIRC Zaal only picks where friendly souls go. He does nothing for enemy souls.

 Grey Templar wrote:
IIRC Zaal only picks where friendly souls go. He does nothing for enemy souls.

That too.

And keep in mind that Gator Engine ain't just gonna be in Gator armies. It also works for Circle and I forget the other one.

You don't see them played much because frankly they're junk. They're the same (or higher) cost as a heavy, with the damage output of a heavy, but roughly the survivability of a light. They maneuver like a pregnant sloth, you need a skyscraper to claim cover with them, and none of your awesome buffs are going to work on them.

Now, there are some casters that have tier lists that make them (barely) useable, but if you have to tailor your list just to make something passable, you have to stop and ask yourself "how much effort do I want to put into polishing this particular turd?"

 AduroT wrote:
And keep in mind that Gator Engine ain't just gonna be in Gator armies. It also works for Circle and I forget the other one.

Circle and Legion.

Well, yeah. Circle's very environmentally friendly, they recycle things very efficiently. If you can get soul tokens and corpse tokens out of the same dead model nothing's wasted!

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Well, yeah. Circle's very environmentally friendly, they recycle things very efficiently. If you can get soul tokens and corpse tokens out of the same dead model nothing's wasted!

Heck, in a pMorv list with Bloodtrackers and Swamp Shamblers you can effectively make more models from nothing.

Morv upkeeps regrowth on the Bloodtrackers. When Bloodtrackers die, the Bokur collects the corpse and makes shamblers. Next turn, Morv brings the Bloodtracker back with Regrowth. Infinite Shamblers.

Add the Sacral Vault to also take the soul of the Blood Tracker.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Well, yeah. Circle's very environmentally friendly, they recycle things very efficiently. If you can get soul tokens and corpse tokens out of the same dead model nothing's wasted!

Heck, in a pMorv list with Bloodtrackers and Swamp Shamblers you can effectively make more models from nothing.

Morv upkeeps regrowth on the Bloodtrackers. When Bloodtrackers die, the Bokur collects the corpse and makes shamblers. Next turn, Morv brings the Bloodtracker back with Regrowth. Infinite Shamblers.

Add the Sacral Vault to also take the soul of the Blood Tracker.

That is crazy. I think this is the new record for recursion. I've seen some people run Zaal with the shamblers, but just being able to bring your guys back afterwords is a whole other level.

 dementedwombat wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Well, yeah. Circle's very environmentally friendly, they recycle things very efficiently. If you can get soul tokens and corpse tokens out of the same dead model nothing's wasted!

Heck, in a pMorv list with Bloodtrackers and Swamp Shamblers you can effectively make more models from nothing.

Morv upkeeps regrowth on the Bloodtrackers. When Bloodtrackers die, the Bokur collects the corpse and makes shamblers. Next turn, Morv brings the Bloodtracker back with Regrowth. Infinite Shamblers.

Add the Sacral Vault to also take the soul of the Blood Tracker.

That is crazy. I think this is the new record for recursion. I've seen some people run Zaal with the shamblers, but just being able to bring your guys back afterwords is a whole other level.

I wish I could run the Sacral Vault with Zaal. "No, you don't get souls from your guys OR my guys! I get ALL THE SOULS! MWAHAHAHAHA!"

 Grey Templar wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Well, yeah. Circle's very environmentally friendly, they recycle things very efficiently. If you can get soul tokens and corpse tokens out of the same dead model nothing's wasted!

Heck, in a pMorv list with Bloodtrackers and Swamp Shamblers you can effectively make more models from nothing.

Morv upkeeps regrowth on the Bloodtrackers. When Bloodtrackers die, the Bokur collects the corpse and makes shamblers. Next turn, Morv brings the Bloodtracker back with Regrowth. Infinite Shamblers.

Add the Sacral Vault to also take the soul of the Blood Tracker.

Add in Warpwolves and put them behind the Bloodtrackers and make them beserk hitting rear arc and most likely killing them.
Then recreate the dawn of the dead movies.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Well, yeah. Circle's very environmentally friendly, they recycle things very efficiently. If you can get soul tokens and corpse tokens out of the same dead model nothing's wasted!

Heck, in a pMorv list with Bloodtrackers and Swamp Shamblers you can effectively make more models from nothing.

Morv upkeeps regrowth on the Bloodtrackers. When Bloodtrackers die, the Bokur collects the corpse and makes shamblers. Next turn, Morv brings the Bloodtracker back with Regrowth. Infinite Shamblers.

Add the Sacral Vault to also take the soul of the Blood Tracker.

I do the same thing with Goreshade3 and McThralls, except I don't have to wait a turn or rely on an upkeep to bring back the McThralls. Don't get any extra Soul collection though. It's pretty much my habit to kill ~4 or so of my own McThralls on my first turn. Let's them get further faster and in larger numbers.

 AduroT wrote:
Also the single wound infantry thing isn't as good as it used to be with all the auto point clouds, covering fires, creeping barrages, soul storms, large AOEs, and chain lightning type Attacks showing up more and more. I'd love to see your 10pts of Cryx infantry try to kill a Gatorman Battle Engine. They're going to Have to start fielding more Warjacks/Cavalry/Battle Engines to compete.

Yea cryx will have to change up a little to play against the Gatorman Battle Engine but a lot of tournament cryx players have already moved towards things like the Kraken and the cavalry (both soul hunters and bane cav are good). Those maybe better options than the cryx battle engine but honestly I am not sure, I don't play cryx.

With the Kraken, you're basically committing a 19pt model to kill a 9pt model. Thats not a favorable trade. You're giving up your one heavy to take out the battle engine. But there could be two of them.

They wouldn't need to toss the Kraken at it. With pSkarre on feat you'd need, what, 2 bane riders? 3? To kill it almost guaranteed

As a Convergence player I strongly dislike anything that has the potential to shut down my Enigma Foundries, although I guess whoever is closer gets the soul. My Axis list is pretty much a no-go against it because even though foundries go a long way towards overcoming the drawbacks of 1 wound infantry some things still just say "no". At least the gun's special aility does nothing against me...