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 krodarklorr wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
That is an entirely different subject. Lets not get into it,

Agreed.

I agree. I collect 'crons btw so wasn't being biased :-p.

What if bladestorm was changed to 'to-hit rolls of 6 wound automatically'?

Would that help?

How, exactly, are 10 dire avengers equal to 5 assault cannons? I could have sworn that they wounded meq on a 4+, couldn't hurt vehicles above armor 10, and only negated 4+ armor on a 6 to wound. Blade storm is supposed to make up for our inability to take a punch, we have a serious right hand with a glass jaw. The wind riders being the exception, but I count mine as 4+armor so auto cannons and assault cannons can destroy them like the fluff says they should.

The dire avengers have always been stated as being good enough to be comparable to elites of other armies. Literally stated as such in the 4th ed codex. So, try comparing them to other elites instead, and see where they end up.
And yes, we get them as troops, so we get to field more. With unbound, formations, and army specific detachments that is not even an argument. What a lot of people want to see is the guys getting out the the wave serpents to be lackluster enough to validate the wave serpents nonsense. That isn't the case. I nerf the army I play in ways that make sense to me, most don't bother. Doesn't mean I don't know what it is that actually need fixing

Bladestorm would be fine as a one use only ability. Or like in the last codex, use it but sacrifice next turns shooting.

 vipoid wrote:
What if bladestorm was changed to 'to-hit rolls of 6 wound automatically'?

Would that help?

That, is actually legit. The harlequins have similar wargear (but this wouldn't be ap2) and would show how devastating the huge amount of shots fired really are, without destroying everyone's terminators and monstrous creatures. I am so going to see what my group thinks of that change

The Harlequin's similar wargear is solely for CC.

But honestly, I think Bladestorm is in a good place...but then again I run more Rangers than anything else.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
What if bladestorm was changed to 'to-hit rolls of 6 wound automatically'?

Would that help?

That, is actually legit. The harlequins have similar wargear (but this wouldn't be ap2) and would show how devastating the huge amount of shots fired really are, without destroying everyone's terminators and monstrous creatures. I am so going to see what my group thinks of that change

It honestly would make it well-balanced. It most importantly doesn't ignore armor, which is where the hate actually came from. The only question is then how do people feel about it being a (somewhat) lesser version of gauss.

Poly Ranger wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
That is an entirely different subject. Lets not get into it,

Agreed.

I agree. I collect 'crons btw so wasn't being biased :-p.

Fair enough. I do agree that Crons are the strongest 7th ed. book so far, but thats beside the point.

Making them auto wound on 6s is a good start, and Guardians being WS/BS 3 needs to happen. My reasoning for that is why would your carpenters and shop keeps be BETTER than Guardsmen, who in all reality, are better skilled then our current-day military. And from a game perspective, Eldar can crap out Twin-linked psychic powers like no one's business, so why would they get that and then STILL have massed BS 4 infantry.

Also, someone earlier mentioned that it wasn't Bladestorm itself thats stupid, but the fact that it combined with everything else is too much. I agree to this statement. Also, when you look at Gauss Flayers, Boltguns, Lasguns, Fleshborers, and Shootas, all of those are well balanced with the rest of the codex. Gauss Flayers can kill vehicles, yes. That is our most reliable way to do so, since we can't take heavy weapons teams or special weapons in squads. Boltguns compliment the tons of specialist weapons and heavy weapons squads they have access to. Lasguns kill things on weight of fire alone, and are supposed to be combined with other things that kill higher T targets and vehicles. Fleshborers are meh, but can be taken in large enough numbers that they hurt. Shootas, same thing.

There is almost no downside to Bladestorm, as there is with every other troop weapon in the game. And why bring heavy weapon squads when your entire troop force can kill terminators and MCs like it's nothing? And then, add in the Serpent Shield, Wraithknights, and super fast jetbikes, it's just too much man.

The specialist thing has been brought up a couple times, so let me expound upon it:
Every codex, even IK to an extent require choices. In a limited point value, we have to balance our lists to take on the various possibilities we could be faced with. Can I kill hordes? Do I have the right tools to deal with armor? What about flyers? And do I have enough obsec?
Every codex, except Eldar. They don't have that problem, because for 200 points you get 2 obsec units, one that can move 12 in and attack with full effectiveness (average of 7.5 TL S6/7 shots) and jink on a 3+, and another that puts out 10 S4 rending shots from an average of 21.5" away.
Light armor? Check. Hordes? Check. Flyers? Check (remember that TL autocannons used to be GK's go-to for anti-flyer). Scoring? Well the vehicle can move 30" if it needs to, so check.

If I want tactical marines to beat 2+ saves, I have to buy a plasma gun, which means that I can't buy a melta or a flamer. And there's no DT I can buy them that puts out that much firepower, so I'll have to use a heavy or elite slot for that. But then will I have enough obsec?

Bladestorm is just another one of the ways Eldar can produce a true TAC list in a way that no other codex can.

 greyknight12 wrote:
The specialist thing has been brought up a couple times, so let me expound upon it:
Every codex, even IK to an extent require choices. In a limited point value, we have to balance our lists to take on the various possibilities we could be faced with. Can I kill hordes? Do I have the right tools to deal with armor? What about flyers? And do I have enough obsec?
Every codex, except Eldar. They don't have that problem, because for 200 points you get 2 obsec units, one that can move 12 in and attack with full effectiveness (average of 7.5 TL S6/7 shots) and jink on a 3+, and another that puts out 10 S4 rending shots from an average of 21.5" away.
Light armor? Check. Hordes? Check. Flyers? Check (remember that TL autocannons used to be GK's go-to for anti-flyer). Scoring? Well the vehicle can move 30" if it needs to, so check.

If I want tactical marines to beat 2+ saves, I have to buy a plasma gun, which means that I can't buy a melta or a flamer. And there's no DT I can buy them that puts out that much firepower, so I'll have to use a heavy or elite slot for that. But then will I have enough obsec?

Bladestorm is just another one of the ways Eldar can produce a true TAC list in a way that no other codex can.

The wave serpent isn't what is being discussed here, I feel a lot of the issues people have with blade storm is they want the thing in the ridiculous transport to be weak to compensate for its awesomeness. If you put dire avengers in a rhino, no one would have the same level of issue with them as a unit. Even if they are in a falcon, most of your complaints become less of an issue. In this post, the only obnoxious thing is the wave serpent. When I play mine, the range is 6" and my scatter lasers only give the twin linking on a hit roll of 6, not allowed on snapshots. Nobody complains about my eldar, because I recognized how much of it was nonsense.

I know, not everybody will nerf their own army, or there are people who would claim to feel like they are being treated with kid gloves if someone did this. Those people can fight my full strength, non spammy eldar then

 Drasius wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

As for how to fix it, I'm not 100%, but toning bladestorm down to being "to wound rolls of a 6 forces a re-roll of successful saves" would be my suggestion, though I would be putting Guardians back to BS3 personally for fluff reasons and to differentiate them from DA. Not sure about how i'd adjust points cost given those changes though, I'd have to actually crunch the numbers to get something that ensure they're not too good or too bad. Don't get me started on jetbikes.

That seems reasonable to me. It would reflect the snazzy eldar technology, and it would differentiate the skill levels of aspect warriors and guardians. Though I still like the idea of giving guardians access to an upgrade that boosts their BS to 4 that can be sniped/barraged out.

And I do sort of see peoples' points about bladestorm now. I still feel it gets complained on a bit more than it deserves, and liking shuripults to assault cannons feels a bit unfair, but I see your points.

Though I agree with most of the things that have been said against Bladestorm, I want to bring up a more general concern I have that connects to it. With the things like Bladestorm or Distortion or other abilities that give special power on a To Wound roll of 6, it is incredibly difficult to point cost them effectively. In reality, a squad of Dire Avengers is not going to statistically wipe out a squad of Terminators every turn because of Bladestorm, but the statistical part is not important.

I play against Eldar quite a lot and am lucky enough that my opponent doesn't cheese out his list. I am not overly scared of Bladestorm, because it often doesn't do much. However, on the couple occasions when he has rolled very well with Bladestorm, having to remove 200+points of Terminators really hurt. That is the problem with abilities like this. If you cost the unit on the "potential" damage, the controlling player will usually feel let down at the ineffectiveness of their unit for the points paid. However, if you cost the unit based on the likely damage output, it leaves the gate open for those odd rolls where a very valuable unit gets destroyed by something that is a third of its cost. You are also probably hearing more complaints about this because those memories stick in your head.

Ultimately I would like to see a lot these effects removed or at least changed so that they don't cause a unit to occasionally punch way above their weight class. However, that is just my opinion.

I've had people complain about bladestorm and wave serpents to me when I've mentioned I play Eldar. Out of those things my list has 2 shuriken pistols in it total.

 greyknight12 wrote:
They don't have that problem, because for 200 points you get 2 obsec units, one that can move 12 in and attack with full effectiveness (average of 7.5 TL S6/7 shots) and jink on a 3+, and another that puts out 10 S4 rending shots from an average of 21.5" away.

I'm curious as to where you are getting an average of 21.5".

Shuriken Pistol - 12"
Shurikn Catapult - 12"
Avenger Shuriken Catapult - 18"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 n0t_u wrote:
I've had people complain about bladestorm and wave serpents to me when I've mentioned I play Eldar. Out of those things my list has 2 shuriken pistols in it total.

I've only heard one player complain about bladestorm, and that was in conjunction with Overwatch and Battle Focus.

 Happyjew wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
They don't have that problem, because for 200 points you get 2 obsec units, one that can move 12 in and attack with full effectiveness (average of 7.5 TL S6/7 shots) and jink on a 3+, and another that puts out 10 S4 rending shots from an average of 21.5" away.

I'm curious as to where you are getting an average of 21.5".

Shuriken Pistol - 12"
Shurikn Catapult - 12"
Avenger Shuriken Catapult - 18"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 n0t_u wrote:
I've had people complain about bladestorm and wave serpents to me when I've mentioned I play Eldar. Out of those things my list has 2 shuriken pistols in it total.

I've only heard one player complain about bladestorm, and that was in conjunction with Overwatch and Battle Focus.

With regards to range of the Dire Avengers guns - I imagine he is including Battle Focus

A S4 ap5 round is *twice* as likely to kill a Dire Avenger than a Marine.

Naked CSM Tac squad vs DAs - same points.
18"+, CSM destroy DAs
12-18", Rends give DA an edge
0-12", CSM destroy DAs
Melee, CSM destroy DAs.

Without bladestorm, DAs tie CSM at 12-18".
And that's naked CSM, which cost the same. And are widely considered crap.

DAs should be able to kill CSM under *some* conditions. So flat-out removing Blade storm is rough.

So let's look at Termies.
Tac Termies kill twice as many DAs as Marines at range. While dying about twice as fast as to boltguns. With an extra 6" range. And destroy DAs in melee even more than Tac marines. And can threaten just about anything in melee, especially vehicles.

TH/SS Termies. Die a little faster to DAs than Boltguns, but not much. And thump even more in melee than Tac Termies.

Tides and such:
T6 2+/5++
DA: (2/3)(1/6)(2/3) = 2/27 wounds/shot
Marines: (2/3)(1/6)(1/6) = 1/54 wounds/shot. Yay? But, from a 10-man:
DAs get 1.48 wounds/round
Marines get 0.37 wounds/round.
Melee:
DAs: (1/2)(1/6)(1/6) = 1/72
Marines: (1/2)(1/2)(1/6) = 1/24
DAs do more shooting but less melee for the same points, sure, but neither is effective.

Now, vehicles. Against AV10 at range, its the same. Against AV11/12, Marines have a small chance (2/3)(1/3) to hurt it.
But in melee:
DAs: (0) HP/round
Marines: (2/3)(1/2) = 1/3.
So, again, 10-man vs 10-man, DAs can't hope, CSMs get 3.3... HP, or enough to hull most vehicles.

Bladestorm is good, but its not *that* good.

And the AC comparison? That's a s6 ap4 weapon base. S4ap5 not-real-rending is absurdly worse.

And Guardians? Their guns are basically a way of holding a point. Saying 'come close and I'll bite you'. If they're a threat, try shooting them? Like, with boltguns? They die *four times* as quickly to Boltguns as Marines. So they'll only get in range if you approach them without hurting them, if you ignore them as they approach, or if they have a dedicated Cheese Serpent. Then, they do a little more than their points of any other troops, but they should if they get the drop on you with 12" guns.

All that said, I wouldn't be adverse to:
- Stripping it from Guardians and dropping their WS/BS, provided their points were adjusted (heck, I've suggested removing battle focus, too, in my Eldar suggestions)
-Removing it from ShuriKannons, for consistency if its removed from basic shiriCats
-Possibly replace it on DAs with to-hit-of-6-autowounds. Seems more fluffy than the pseudo-rending.

Alternately, make it AP3.

that said, just removing it would be a hard kick in the groin. How often do you see 9ppm Fire Warriors carrying their Assault2 18" s5 pinning carbines? Never. 18" is short. And Battle focus doesn't come close to closing the additional 6" most infantry get.

Everyone's always complaining about serpents - it's easy to forget how OP everything else in the Eldar codex is. Guardians for example. 10 man with star cannon costs 110 points. It averages 4.5 ap2 wounds to t4 units. Vs T 6 they only average a little less. This unit whilst being cheap is able to handle basically every elite infantry option in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
A S4 ap5 round is *twice* as likely to kill a Dire Avenger than a Marine.

Naked CSM Tac squad vs DAs - same points.
18"+, CSM destroy DAs
12-18", Rends give DA an edge
0-12", CSM destroy DAs
Melee, CSM destroy DAs.

Without bladestorm, DAs tie CSM at 12-18".
And that's naked CSM, which cost the same. And are widely considered crap.

DAs should be able to kill CSM under *some* conditions. So flat-out removing Blade storm is rough.

So let's look at Termies.
Tac Termies kill twice as many DAs as Marines at range. While dying about twice as fast as to boltguns. With an extra 6" range. And destroy DAs in melee even more than Tac marines. And can threaten just about anything in melee, especially vehicles.

TH/SS Termies. Die a little faster to DAs than Boltguns, but not much. And thump even more in melee than Tac Termies.

Tides and such:
T6 2+/5++
DA: (2/3)(1/6)(2/3) = 2/27 wounds/shot
Marines: (2/3)(1/6)(1/6) = 1/54 wounds/shot. Yay? But, from a 10-man:
DAs get 1.48 wounds/round
Marines get 0.37 wounds/round.
Melee:
DAs: (1/2)(1/6)(1/6) = 1/72
Marines: (1/2)(1/2)(1/6) = 1/24
DAs do more shooting but less melee for the same points, sure, but neither is effective.

Now, vehicles. Against AV10 at range, its the same. Against AV11/12, Marines have a small chance (2/3)(1/3) to hurt it.
But in melee:
DAs: (0) HP/round
Marines: (2/3)(1/2) = 1/3.
So, again, 10-man vs 10-man, DAs can't hope, CSMs get 3.3... HP, or enough to hull most vehicles.

Bladestorm is good, but its not *that* good.

And the AC comparison? That's a s6 ap4 weapon base. S4ap5 not-real-rending is absurdly worse.

And Guardians? Their guns are basically a way of holding a point. Saying 'come close and I'll bite you'. If they're a threat, try shooting them? Like, with boltguns? They die *four times* as quickly to Boltguns as Marines. So they'll only get in range if you approach them without hurting them, if you ignore them as they approach, or if they have a dedicated Cheese Serpent. Then, they do a little more than their points of any other troops, but they should if they get the drop on you with 12" guns.

All that said, I wouldn't be adverse to:
- Stripping it from Guardians and dropping their WS/BS, provided their points were adjusted (heck, I've suggested removing battle focus, too, in my Eldar suggestions)
-Removing it from ShuriKannons, for consistency if its removed from basic shiriCats
-Possibly replace it on DAs with to-hit-of-6-autowounds. Seems more fluffy than the pseudo-rending.

Alternately, make it AP3.

that said, just removing it would be a hard kick in the groin. How often do you see 9ppm Fire Warriors carrying their Assault2 18" s5 pinning carbines? Never. 18" is short. And Battle focus doesn't come close to closing the additional 6" most infantry get.

Serious question...did terminators work their way up the field to shoot at guardians or DA - or did they actually intend to kill something important this game?

I'm curious, how does Bladestorm stack up vs. Crons compared to other weapons like Bolters?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'm curious, how does Bladestorm stack up vs. Crons compared to other weapons like Bolters?

blade storm is worthless vs wraiths but serpents are EXCELLENT vs them. Probably the only army that has no trouble bringing them down. Vs immortals and warriors - it's still probably the best you can hope for from a cheap weapon. Rending IMO is one of the more powerful abilities in the game.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'm curious, how does Bladestorm stack up vs. Crons compared to other weapons like Bolters?

blade storm is worthless vs wraiths but serpents are EXCELLENT vs them. Probably the only army that has no trouble bringing them down. Vs immortals and warriors - it's still probably the best you can hope for from a cheap weapon. Rending IMO is one of the more powerful abilities in the game.

Rending is only good on large numbers of dice. Rending is a crap rule on assault cannons, since the Imperium can't mass them up.

Umm, why would Tac Termies work their way up the field to shoot things with drastically shorter range?

And if Guardians and DAs aren't important enough for *storm bolter* shots, why complain about them?

Not saying Termies are a great counter, just saying DAs and Guardians don't kill Termies nearly as readily as most seem to believe. Most think Termies are junk against anything.

Guardians may be cheap compared to Tac Marines, but they cost nearly double basic Guardsmen, and cost the same as a Fire Warrior.

Fire Warriors. 30" range. +1S. 4+ armor. So, stronger hit at well over double range while being more survivable. In exchange for Blade storm and Battle focus. Seems reasonable.

Compared to basic Guardsmen, half the range for +1 BS and S, and 1/6 of all hits rend. Pretty good. For 9ppm vs 5ppm. Doesn't seem unfair. Same survivability, harder hitting gun, but half the range and nearly twice the cost. Not seeing the problem.

Yes, they can move their heavy weapon.
Brightlance vs Lascannon? 12" shorter range, 1 less S at AV12-, one more at AV12. Unless facing Land Raider spam, advantage Lascannon. Cheaper too, I think.

Shuriken Cannon vs Heavy Bolter. +1S and < 1 AP2 wound every other round base ap5 vs 12" more range and stock AP4. Side grade at best. AP4 might not sound like much, but this weapon class is optimal at handling things that are 4+ anyways, so that nearly doubles its output.

Star Cannon vs Plasma Cannon: Same range. 2 shots vs blast. PC has s7 but Gets Hot. Seems fair to me.

Autocannon vs Scatter Laser. +1 S, +12", and AP4 vs twice the shots at AP6. Seems fair.

EML vs ML. Ap4 on the blast + pinning. Simply better.

Lasgun vs Shurikat. Lasgun has twice the range, but shurikats have s4 and pseudorending.

12" is a lot of range. If Guardians always rolled 6s to run, and could depend on it, Imperial would still win on range, because it puts Guard equivalents 6" closer to what kills them easily (anything).

Guardians pay more for their heavy weapons than their imperial counterparts. They tend to be more focused at what they do, but worse at everything else.

I don't get why you think Guardians - heavy weapon or no - outclasses Guardsmen with the same configuration. Especially when you have nearly 2 guardsmen for every Guardian.

"Autocannon vs Scatter Laser. +1 S, +12", and AP4 vs twice the shots at AP6. Seems fair. "

Not even remotely fair. But please continue. For even more lulz, compare it to the assault cannon. SL are one of the biggest cheeses in the game. They have been since 5th at least.

Martel732 wrote:
"Autocannon vs Scatter Laser. +1 S, +12", and AP4 vs twice the shots at AP6. Seems fair. "

Not even remotely fair. But please continue. For even more lulz, compare it to the assault cannon. SL are one of the biggest cheeses in the game. They have been since 5th at least.

Don't Scatter Lasers also cause shots at the same target to be twin linked after? Or is that something else?

 ImAGeek wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Autocannon vs Scatter Laser. +1 S, +12", and AP4 vs twice the shots at AP6. Seems fair. "

Not even remotely fair. But please continue. For even more lulz, compare it to the assault cannon. SL are one of the biggest cheeses in the game. They have been since 5th at least.

Don't Scatter Lasers also cause shots at the same target to be twin linked after? Or is that something else?

Yes, they do that too. They are total BS.

As for bladestorm itself, I guess it's not THAT bad, it's just a kick in the jimmies after all the other Eldar cheese you have to wade through to get to close range against them. CSM was forced to move beyond Codex:helldrake, but Eldar are still in that Codex: Waveserpent zone.

Fine.

Pop an AV12 tank 48" away.
AC: 2x(2/3)(1/3), half are pens
SL: move up t1. T2 4x(2/3)(1/6).

Assuming they're both in range (likely), they strip the same number of HP, but half of the AC shots are pens. AC outclasses SL.

Shooting DAs or FW, assuming both are in range (advantage: AC), exact same numbers killed.

AC does better at t5+ 4+ or worse, although that's rare.
AC does better against penning anything AV11+, better at HPing anything AV12+. AV10 front armor isn't common.

So SL does better at more common infantry, unless they're t5+.
AC does better against AV11+.

AC has better range
AC is cheaper on Guardsmen than SL is on Guardians (what we're talking about).

It looks close to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for twin linking, let's factor it in! Yay, in this case, the Guardian gets to twinlink all his other shots! Which, as infantry, is 0.

Bharring wrote:

Yes, they can move their heavy weapon.

So, they ignore the entire penalty associated with using Heavy weapons?

Bharring wrote:

Shuriken Cannon vs Heavy Bolter. +1S and < 1 AP2 wound every other round base ap5 vs 12" more range and stock AP4. Side grade at best. AP4 might not sound like much, but this weapon class is optimal at handling things that are 4+ anyways, so that nearly doubles its output.

Shuriken Cannon wins. S6 is a huge boost from S5.

 ImAGeek wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Autocannon vs Scatter Laser. +1 S, +12", and AP4 vs twice the shots at AP6. Seems fair. "

Not even remotely fair. But please continue. For even more lulz, compare it to the assault cannon. SL are one of the biggest cheeses in the game. They have been since 5th at least.

Don't Scatter Lasers also cause shots at the same target to be twin linked after? Or is that something else?

Yep.

But, it's fair really because getting a single hit with 4 BS4 shots is reeeeally hard.

SL generate twice as many wounds against most infantry models. That's the most relevant stat in most circumstances. The SL is just there to twin link the bigger guns in the anti-tank case. You can rationalize all you want, but the SL is a total cheese weapon.

" (what we're talking about). "

I'm talking about SL in general. Not guardians. I can't tell you the last time I saw a foot guardian. I think it was 3rd edition.

OK, Assault Cannon:

SL: S6 AP6
AC: S6 AP4 Rending

So SL is +12 inches. nice.
AC APs 4+ saves, and rends.

Against GEQ, AC denies their save
Against MEQ and TEQ, AC rends about once every other round
Against light vehicles (AV10-11), AC = SL
Against mid vehicles (AV12), AC pens where SL glances.
Against heavy vehicles (AV13+), AC can still pen, SL cannot.

(AC actually outperforms Lascannons vs AV14, if you're not looking to explodes)

For 12" range, that's a lot of wins in the AC category.

Or did you want to compare it to the ShuriKanon? One more shot, ap4 vs ap5, actual-rending vs only-infantry. Same range.

Assault Cannon is an amazing weapon.

Assault cannon is a crap weapon because of what platforms can purchase the assault cannon.

SL is both an amazing weapon AND comes on amazing platforms. The SL is so much better in practice I want to melt down all my models with ACs with a heat gun. Yes, the Eldar are THAT frustrating. The range difference alone makes an enormous difference on the table top.

This thread is about Blade storm. In particular, the current parts are about Guardians vs Guardsmen.

The other relevant part could be twin linking Cannons. Basically, one extra shot each round. With only a 1/6 chance to rend. A twin linked bs4 shuriken cannon is nearly as good against infantry and still much worse against armor than an Assault Cannon.