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To clarify, at no point did I say that all Eldar have Quicksilver-style speed, just the Solitaire (informed by the Blitz move). Normal Eldar I'd certainly put in the 'dodging bullets' catagory with the right trainting (warrior Aspects, Wych Cults, Harlies), but not super-super-speed.

I'm pretty sure that bullets do fly at super-super-speed

It probably depends on what you mean by 'Dodging'.

I don't want to offend you or derail your narrative - that's why i tell that it's just from my perspective. Personally, i don't like this fancy Marvel-universe super-abilities. I enjoy it when stuff is a bit more down to earth.

Some people do, on the other hand. And it's perfectly fine.

 koooaei wrote:
I'm pretty sure that bullets do fly at super-super-speed

It probably depends on what you mean by 'Dodging'.

Probably something closer to instinctively avoiding what would be a glancing hit (ie. not moving all that far) or senseing someone about to fire (greater awareness) and diving for cover before they pull the trigger, rather than outright thinking 'Oh no, bullet coming this way, what do I do? I'll step over here!' In other words, if you can line up a direct hit on an Eldar it's screwed, but without superhuman abilities of your own or some insane luck, you'll be unlikely to line up that shot before he's up close and taking heads.

I must admit I am a bit of a Marvel junkie, so I guess seeing super-powers as not exactly 'normal' but certainly within the realm of possiblility in the setting does colour my perspective somewhat. Particularly for stuff like veteran Space Marines, Eldar Solitaires, Greater Demons or Chaos Lords, I'm certainly not afraid to go into super-hero territory when writing or visualising them.

But that's the joy of 40k, it's open enough as a setting that we can both be right!

 koooaei wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
When the hell did superspeed become part of the elf archetype?

Lazy writing is what it is.

Eldar have always been very fast, superhuman fast compared to humans. Or they have at least for the 10 years I've been in the hobby, so it's not a new thing.

Or it's been 10 years of lazy writing.

BTW, people often miss the degree of 'faster'. Striking first and reacting faster is fine. Dodging bullets and striking 10 times and moving away in a heartbeat is superhero garbage fluff. It takes away from the complexity of the narrative so much. The author stops thinking about how the character could use his wits and cunning but rather goes like: "he wins cause he's so awesum and can dodge bullets and stuff just because".

Superhuman concept is also fine but not to such degree.

>Points out that some of greatest figures in human literature are blatant superhumans that make Wolverine or Spider-Man look like a chump.

"Power levels" have feth all to do with the quality of writing. I or any author could easily write a very good story with a full omnipotent in it, the ability to catch bullets out of the air doesn't have anything to do with the actual quality of work. That's the setting and theme. If you seriously think that power has anything to do with the quality of written work, then your literary scope is sorely limited.

 Wyzilla wrote:

>Points out that some of greatest figures in human literature are blatant superhumans that make Wolverine or Spider-Man look like a chump.

Like...what?..

Sorry, i don't recall any of, say, Tolstoy's, Shakespear's, Dostoyevsky's, Hemingway's...heroes being superhumans.

What's that great human literature featuring super-humans you're talking about?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I'm pretty sure that bullets do fly at super-super-speed

It probably depends on what you mean by 'Dodging'.

Probably something closer to instinctively avoiding what would be a glancing hit (ie. not moving all that far) or senseing someone about to fire (greater awareness) and diving for cover before they pull the trigger, rather than outright thinking 'Oh no, bullet coming this way, what do I do? I'll step over here!' In other words, if you can line up a direct hit on an Eldar it's screwed, but without superhuman abilities of your own or some insane luck, you'll be unlikely to line up that shot before he's up close and taking heads.

Sounds reasonable.

 Paradigm wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I'm pretty sure that bullets do fly at super-super-speed

It probably depends on what you mean by 'Dodging'.

Probably something closer to instinctively avoiding what would be a glancing hit (ie. not moving all that far) or senseing someone about to fire (greater awareness) and diving for cover before they pull the trigger, rather than outright thinking 'Oh no, bullet coming this way, what do I do? I'll step over here!' In other words, if you can line up a direct hit on an Eldar it's screwed, but without superhuman abilities of your own or some insane luck, you'll be unlikely to line up that shot before he's up close and taking heads.

I must admit I am a bit of a Marvel junkie, so I guess seeing super-powers as not exactly 'normal' but certainly within the realm of possiblility in the setting does colour my perspective somewhat. Particularly for stuff like veteran Space Marines, Eldar Solitaires, Greater Demons or Chaos Lords, I'm certainly not afraid to go into super-hero territory when writing or visualising them.

But that's the joy of 40k, it's open enough as a setting that we can both be right!

That's how I picture them too. Their reactions are very very quick, so actually hitting them is difficult. And I also agree that there is room for some superhuman stuff in there too. I mean look at the Primarchs haha.

 koooaei wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

>Points out that some of greatest figures in human literature are blatant superhumans that make Wolverine or Spider-Man look like a chump.

Like...what?..

Sorry, i don't recall any of, say, Tolstoy's, Shakespear's, Dostoyevsky's, Hemingway's...heroes being superhumans.

What's that great human literature you're talking about?

I imagine it's in reference to the mythic literature. Achillies, Perseus, Herceles and friends from the Greco-Roman myth, arguably Charlemagne in European legend, King Arthur/Merlin, even some Biblical characters like Samson would fit the bill. The concept of superhuman characters is certainly not a 20th Century idea, although this is its first real revival in a thousand years or so.

Back then, the power came from deities, these days it's from atom bombs, genetic modification and chemicals, but the outcome is the same.

 Paradigm wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

>Points out that some of greatest figures in human literature are blatant superhumans that make Wolverine or Spider-Man look like a chump.

Like...what?..

Sorry, i don't recall any of, say, Tolstoy's, Shakespear's, Dostoyevsky's, Hemingway's...heroes being superhumans.

What's that great human literature you're talking about?

I imagine it's in reference to the mythic literature. Achillies, Perseus, Herceles and friends from the Greco-Roman myth, arguably Charlemagne in European legend, King Arthur/Merlin, even some Biblical characters like Samson would fit the bill. The concept of superhuman characters is certainly not a 20th Century idea, although this is its first real revival in a thousand years or so.

Oh, yep, forgot about myths! Also, fairy tales. They're great too.

 koooaei wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

>Points out that some of greatest figures in human literature are blatant superhumans that make Wolverine or Spider-Man look like a chump.

Like...what?..

Sorry, i don't recall any of, say, Tolstoy's, Shakespear's, Dostoyevsky's, Hemingway's...heroes being superhumans.

What's that great human literature featuring super-humans you're talking about?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I'm pretty sure that bullets do fly at super-super-speed

It probably depends on what you mean by 'Dodging'.

Probably something closer to instinctively avoiding what would be a glancing hit (ie. not moving all that far) or senseing someone about to fire (greater awareness) and diving for cover before they pull the trigger, rather than outright thinking 'Oh no, bullet coming this way, what do I do? I'll step over here!' In other words, if you can line up a direct hit on an Eldar it's screwed, but without superhuman abilities of your own or some insane luck, you'll be unlikely to line up that shot before he's up close and taking heads.

Sounds reasonable.

Well for one, look no further then the oldest figure of human epics that we still remember despite the myths being formed well over four thousand years ago. Humans love epics and heroes, and have been creating stories of them for time immemorial. Comic Books are just a modern continuation of what were previously kept as oral stories in Greece or scratched onto mud-bricks in ancient Mesopotamia. Gilgamesh. Diomedes. Heracles. Achilles. Beowulf. Roland. Ogier the Dane. Etc.

If you look at it from such perspective, than yep.

Oh! Who'd win Hercules or Solitaire?

I hear you, but I think the idea is that the Solitaire uses his holo suit and flip belt in tandem better than the average Harlequin. So basically it is like you are fighting a big flying cloud of confetti, and have no idea where your target is and are just swinging randomly while these little slaps and sticks come in and remove important body parts, sever arteries, cut tendons, etc.

Edit: missed the entire second page, so this may seem a bit out of place. Carry on!

Well, you could always take the 2 models and do an "arena of death" and find out. ten 'battles" should be enough to give you an idea. 100 should give you a closer one.

 koooaei wrote:
If you look at it from such perspective, than yep.

Oh! Who'd win Hercules or Solitaire?

Heracles. Not a contest. By the original Greek interpretation of the sky, he held up a god and prevented it from humping the Earth (which was also a god) and crushing everyone in the process. In the literal modern interpretation, he held up five quadrillion tonnes.

The Eversor should be pushing the limits of Imperial tech/knowledge of physics.

The Solitaire actually transcends the actual limits of physics.

Solitaire, easily. Fluffwise, anyways.

(Mechanics wise, a Vindicare is a better swordsman than Jain Zar, so the two are quite different.)

 koooaei wrote:
Well, to be honest, i'm starting to loose faith in 'fluff' battles when we have something like 1 man haulting a tyranid fleet or entering the eye of terror and winning vs daemons in there...
And people call Ward's fluff bad

Probably it's just me preferring something like an ork/ig-style big stupid mess with everyone dead in the end rather than action-movie style dodging bullets and killing quadrillion foes throwing jokes in the process.

I agree. Super anything is lame. Superior is not lame, but to be superior does not require super speed, super guns, super armour or super powers. There is a reason children gravitate to this sort of writing (no offense, its a bit more complex than that) but because its really easy to cover your bases when you have a power for everything to show they are powerful. When instead, having a weakness and overcoming it is the adult way of showing power and superiority.

Thats why Space Marines are one of the stupidest ideas made, they have no real weakness making them apparent super humans with a spare organ, imaginary organ or super special gear to cover all their bases. Its like an 8 year old decided he would cover all the weaknesses known to man in one super soldier and they took it and never bothered to change it.

This has leaked somewhat into the fluff. I dont wanna read about firedragons reduce all buildings and tanks to mist and slag as they walk by in a description purposefully written to make them sound super deadly, nor do I wanna hear about how super everything is (which is 99% of the fluff for each faction). I want realness, which is far more gridmark then the comical stuff I see most of the time.

Anyways, I always thought what made the solitaire good was:

Gambled soul. Without knowing how his soul will meet its fate, his very life is a gamble. Will slaneesh devour it? Or will the laughing god take his soul back? So every move and action must be well thought out and placed, because unlike other eldar this action could be his last.

Player of the great enemy. Because he has the burden of playing the great enemy, his dazzling display must instill fear and anger among the Eldar. This is why the eldar hate his presence. (I heard this) but there is a saying in the Eldar apparently where touching a solitaire is worse than death. Eldar Psykers feel depressed around him and everywhere he goes he is shunned. Despite playing such a major and important role in keeping the memories of his people alive. So his gear and dance is one of fear and hatred, more than likely this is reflected in his combat. Added to this the confusion his attire brings and the slightly faster speeds at which eldar think and act he becomes a deadly warrior.

So with this in mind, I think the fear aspect is wasted in the assassin as he is pumped with drugs, but the confusion definitely isnt. Eldar have the same pain tolerance etc as a human so all the assasin needs to hope for is that he can take enough punishment to land a blow to cripple the eldar (all he will need is a hit) before he succumbs to his wounds if he sustains any. It merely becomes a battle of who can hit first as neither opponent have any defensive gear (shields of both kinds etc). This gives the solitaire a natural advantage so in my opinion he will more than likely win. But speed is the solitaires only advantage and it is the most important. I suspect like any melee, it will be over quickly regardless of the winner.

 Swastakowey wrote:

Thats why Space Marines are one of the stupidest ideas made, they have no real weakness making them apparent super humans with a spare organ, imaginary organ or super special gear to cover all their bases. Its like an 8 year old decided he would cover all the weaknesses known to man in one super soldier and they took it and never bothered to change it.

Space Marines were created from the Primarchs, and the Primarchs were created for exactly that reason, to eliminate weakness; when you're messing around trying to create an army of super-soldiers with which to unite and conquer a very hostile and very dangerous galaxy, why would you strive for anything less than perfection? The Emperor needed warriors of that calibre to be able to deal with the horrors of the galaxy, and had the powers to create it, so why wouldn't he use that to the full.

The weakness comes later, particularly in 40k, where tradition, dogma and sheer weight of numbers mean these so-called-perfect warriors still regularly lose or take a pasting, and for every world the Astartes save, a dozen more might fall for lack of them.