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I tried to get into it in the past but frankly the rule density just kept me away. Pages and pages of special rules with icons was just a bit much in my mind.

I may collect Convergence at some point though as a display army just because I like the art-deco clockpunk design, but most of the other factions don't interest me too much.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I tried to get into it in the past but frankly the rule density just kept me away. Pages and pages of special rules with icons was just a bit much in my mind.

I may collect Convergence at some point though as a display army just because I like the art-deco clockpunk design, but most of the other factions don't interest me too much.

Really? Have you had a look at the special rules section of 40k lately? It took me a couple weeks to learn what all the special rules do and how they interact in WMH. 20 years later and I still have to check the rulebook during some 40k games...

 Toofast wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I tried to get into it in the past but frankly the rule density just kept me away. Pages and pages of special rules with icons was just a bit much in my mind.

I may collect Convergence at some point though as a display army just because I like the art-deco clockpunk design, but most of the other factions don't interest me too much.

Really? Have you had a look at the special rules section of 40k lately? It took me a couple weeks to learn what all the special rules do and how they interact in WMH. 20 years later and I still have to check the rulebook during some 40k games...

I started 40k in 3rd. For the most part for me it's been an iterative climb (like walking up stairs). Jumping into Warmachine feels more like running face first into a brick wall in comparison.

But that's just me. I'm not posting here asking for people to change my mind or anything, I was just sharing my take on it.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Another thing I can see as a benefit, but I don't particularly like, is the amazingly strict reliance on to-the-millimeter positioning. It makes sense because so much of the game is about threat ranges and spacing, but it pretty much makes any kind of terrain or scenery other than colored squares of felt not allow the game to be played as designed, since you can't put the models in the exact right place (and in many cases you have to use a "proxy base" for exact model positioning when things are too close together)... it just makes me wonder why you bother to have a modeling aspect at all if you try what seems to be your hardest to make it impractical in the rules.

You just stole the words from my fingertips. I was going to post that WM/H, tight, tactical, fast-paced and competition-oriented as it is, feels quite like a boardgame to me - one in which using miniatures oddly feels like an unnecessary liability. IMHO, WM/H could be perfectly played with wooden chits and cardboard tokens over a gridded board, and it would be even more tight and concise than in its current form.

The miniatures are, for a game that could perfectly do without them, surprisingly amazing. Yes, I like PP's style. Sure their earlier work was rough but so was GW's and Wyrd's and even Corvus Belli's (my PanO fusiliers stare at me from their shelf in silent acknowledgement as I write this ), but their current stuff has been consistently excellent.

The lore... I've never been even moderately intrigued by it. Maybe I've been badly spoiled by the surreal metanarratives of 40k, but from what I've read the Iron Kingdoms' setting feels too self-absorbed to be interesting.

Trasvi wrote:

- Terrain likewise is a lot less prevalent in WMH than 40k, because it has an enormous effect on the game. 40k needs a third of the table covered in substantial pieces of terrain to have any effect - much less than 25% and the board feels empty. In 40k, a low brick wall is just there for looks, anyone who is anyone is wearing 2+ armour and/or 5+ invulnerable. In Warmachine, that wall is a critical piece of the battlefield and the battle may hinge around who gets to benefit from the cover it provides. Whether you think this difference is a good thing (less terrain, cheaper, more meaningful, looks worse vs more terrain, expensive, little game effect, looks good) is up to you.

To me, the full 40k experience isn't there unless the table actually looks like a game setting. A few pieces of felt or the odd hut and tree doesn't cut it. It should start with a game matt or resin tiles, and then have hills, bunkers, craters, fortifications, rivers, multilevel buildings, and pieces with big guns. Meaningful terrain that block line of sight, impede travel, provide cover, look awesome, and took as long to build and make as the models themselves.

Also, meaningful terrain makes a HUGE difference in gameplay in 40k. If your alleyways are narrow, you force the tanks to travel through main roads, but allow smaller units to navigate them. If buildings levels are only large enough to support infantry, giant stompy robots are disadvantaged. Tall units can shoot over short buildings, but not taller ones. Plus, many common fortification pieces like Skyshield and ADL are highly functional (and in the case of Skyshield, very large), while others, like Wall of Martyrs, is totally immersive.

There's a lot more 40k up at Mugu or down south at HKG than over in Redmond, not sure why, we're all sort of in the land of PP.

I play both 40k and WMH; 40k is a cinematic experience, it's about the prettiness of the models and the awesomeness of how things look, the game is tremendously buggy and I find it a lot of work for not a lot of fun by comparison to the competition. WMH is a game, it's fast and easy to play, the rules are very tightly written and well-balanced, and the game is about how you play more than what you brought; unfortunately the models aren't great value for money, the community isn't as invested in making things look fancy (this is a broad generalization not intended as a dig at anyone, there are great painters in any miniatures game), and the models just aren't as cool as GW's models.

40k is a great game to play with a consistent group that knows each other's limits muchkining-wise and is invested in staying friends and building stories; WMH is a much better pick-up game because you don't end up wandering into a strange play group at a dramatically different level of play from them and making someone into an donkey-cave for fielding Wraithwing against foot Greenwing or something similarly mismatched.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I tried to get into it in the past but frankly the rule density just kept me away. Pages and pages of special rules with icons was just a bit much in my mind.

I may collect Convergence at some point though as a display army just because I like the art-deco clockpunk design, but most of the other factions don't interest me too much.

Really? Have you had a look at the special rules section of 40k lately? It took me a couple weeks to learn what all the special rules do and how they interact in WMH. 20 years later and I still have to check the rulebook during some 40k games...

I started 40k in 3rd. For the most part for me it's been an iterative climb (like walking up stairs). Jumping into Warmachine feels more like running face first into a brick wall in comparison.

But that's just me. I'm not posting here asking for people to change my mind or anything, I was just sharing my take on it.

Can't blame us for trying. (If you don't like the models you don't like the models, not much that can solve that problem. WMH is really not proxy friendly.)

I wanted to try out WMH but got turned away by it's players. I got a feeling that they spent most of their time running around the place trying to convince other people that other games suck. Especially, 40k. Oh, they hated it with burning passion and felt obliged to make others know it.

 koooaei wrote:
I wanted to try out WMH but got turned away by it's players. I got a feeling that they spent most of their time running around the place trying to convince other people that other games suck. Especially, 40k. Oh, they hated it with burning passion and felt obliged to make others know it.

Depends on the community. I've run into just as many 40k players who are dismissive of and hostile to anyone who doesn't play games the 'right way'.

I have played WH40K for 12 years and WM/H for almost 10 years now.

WM/H is is more complex, it might look simple from the outside when you are not familiar with the game but it is not. It requires quite a bit of strategy.

The aesthetic for me does not match 40K by a long shot, and quite many of the miniatures are ugly. Some however, are actually great looking. There's fluff and quite a bit of it, but as a universe it doesn't compare to 40K for me personally.

It's more balanced than 40K and there's less randomness involved. Better suited for people who want a fair match even if they don't want to play a minmaxed list ( altough that is not always possible in WM/H either, a tournament build -will- crush your casual list but to less extent than in 40K. )

Other than that, WM/H has also suffered from bloat for a few years now and it is only increasing, just like every other game that has been around for long. To deny this is to be biased to the max.

It's not a perfect game either, but if you want a fair chance to win against most ( but not all ) builds and armies without buying the most optimal list in existence, then WM/H is for you. Ruleswise.

When I first started WM/H I didn't even touch 40K for a few years. Currently it's reversed, WM/H is the pretzels game for me and my main focus is on 40K. Could change again in the future.

Regarding PP's models getting better, these are just out: http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/skorne/warbeasts/scarab-pack

So yeah, no.

I've played BOTH WM and 40k.

Neither scratches an itch for me anymore.

The lack of customisation of pieces in wm is a downside for me.
The lack of decent rules is the downside for 40k.

I don't like the cards aspect of wm.
I'm not overly fussed on the buckets of dice for 40k - but I wouldn't go back to playing it if they used cards and 2-5d6 either.

Fortunately, I live in an area where - although people do seem to play 40k, and wm is also played - they aren't the dominant games that they are in other locales. WHFB is still king around here and other games like EPIC and seasonally, blood bowl is even bigger.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I wanted to try out WMH but got turned away by it's players. I got a feeling that they spent most of their time running around the place trying to convince other people that other games suck. Especially, 40k. Oh, they hated it with burning passion and felt obliged to make others know it.

Depends on the community. I've run into just as many 40k players who are dismissive of and hostile to anyone who doesn't play games the 'right way'.

Agreed. Just sharing my experience.

 koooaei wrote:
I wanted to try out WMH but got turned away by it's players. I got a feeling that they spent most of their time running around the place trying to convince other people that other games suck. Especially, 40k. Oh, they hated it with burning passion and felt obliged to make others know it.

We have one or two like that.

Kind of feels like the Jehovah's Witnesses have dropped in when they stop by your table, give you a WarmaHordes flyer and talk about how much better than 40k their game is. Can't fault them for recruiting, but if you've given me three bits of paper in the last three months and I still haven't bought any warjacks, you've got to take the hint ... /rant

That said, I'm sure the 40k crowd has its share of elitist douchelords too.

Perhaps the WM/H proselytizing comes from the notion that 40k players aren't aware of games outside of the GW games?

That said, it's not for everyone. No game is.
PP's magazine, No Quarter has great fluff, articles on converting and narrative based missions. I just wish the player base paid more attention to all the cool supporting stuff out there.

 Makinit wrote:

Do many of the 40k fanatics on here play

Why would you want to speak to the ‘fanatics’ though? You’re just asking for a skewed viewpoint, and flamebait im afraid.

 Makinit wrote:

I live in the land of Privateer Press here in Redmond WA so it is really hard to get a game of 40k. In the two years since I have lived here I have only managed to pick up about a dozen games. So I am considering playing Warmachine which is played daily at every hobby store in the area.

Surely if you have questions or queries regarding WMH, you’d be better off asking in the PP sub forum? They’re not trolls, and they’re not gonna bite your head off for asking questions, or voicing concerns.

To be fair to the 40k players, is there any organisation or networking where you are? Clubs, Facebook groups and things like that are a good way of finding other players. I'm sure there are probably a few 40k groups in your area that could be contacted that you might not know about currently. Maybe a bit of networking rather than investing in a whole new game is something you should look at? Then again, if WMH is the big thing there, it makes a bit if sense to get involved in what others are playing. Just don't chuck your 40k stuff - you'll never know when it'll come in handy

 Makinit wrote:

When I look at the game it just looks boring. It appears that they just line up facing each other and start rolling dice until someone wins.

Heh, the same can be said for 40k. If it looks boring, maybe its just because you’re not invested in it?

 Makinit wrote:

There does not appear to be any strategy in how you move your guys or in finding cover.

Actually, you’re quite wrong here. Movement and positioning are crucial to the game. Facing, getting into a model’s rear arc, charge lances, non-linear vectors, place effects. With steamroller scenarios and the need to contest scoring zones and objectives, where you go is crucial. There are a lot of moving parts to consider. It might not have the vast sweeping movements of a game of soccer, but is more akin to a boxing match. Cover is crucial. The +2def, or +4def flat bonus it grants is huge. And its always relevant. 40k’s system means a marine in cover, rather than having a ‘flat’ harder to hit, or ‘harder to damage’ applied to him (which would IMO make sense), has a weird either/or system. He gets the benefit of cover against lascannons, but not against heavy bolters or autocannons.

 Makinit wrote:

There does not seem to be any fluff behind the game to make it the rich experience 40k is.

Wrong. And with respect, what you say is simply not true. I apologise makinit – this is a personal bugbear of mine. It really annoys me how people keep repeating this – that WMH has no fluff. That statement simply has no basis in fact. None. WMH has a huge amount of very well written fluff and some very decent writers behind it. Now, I understand that you’re probably saying what you said out of a lack of familiarity with the setting though. The fluff is there, though. And for what its worth, in my mind, its quite excellent, and well worth your time to read.

first up: complete chronological list of fiction.
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?195787-The-Complete-Chronological-Iron-Kingdoms-Fiction
check out the forums as well - often the lead writer of the fiction - Doug Seacat will step in and elaborate on any and all points of the fiction that raise questions. Heck, he once personally explained to me why they don't have orcs in their ip.
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?77295-Doug-Seacat-on. A collection of seacat's posts expanding on and explaining in (sometime exhausting) details the nature of certain aspects of their world.

The first place for fluff, as you can guess is the rulebook and army books for both warmachine and hordes. they have the ongoing fiction, as well as character back stories, unit descriptions and the FOW books often describe some of the logistics, and actual nuts and bolts of army organisation, and history. they're good solid reads (i love the retribution book in particular, its background material is phenomenol!) but generally, act as a great intro. If you are interested, the fluff goes all the way back to Mk1 and the original books from over 10 years ago. if you get the PP reader app, you can download all the old books for a song. its well worth it, IMO. the hordes expansions (mutagenesis and evolution iirc) have some really excellent story material.

the second place is PPs magazine. No Quarter. it is an excellent read. pick it up at your FLGS, and if you want the older copies, check out the PP reader app, where you can get all the old issues for a few pence. there are short stories throughout the magazine. they also run very popular and very well written fluff articles in the magazine. For example, you have the Gavyn Kyle files, which elaborates on, explores and deepends the fiction behind a lot of the "names" in the game. Not just casters. But other famous individuals too. Sometimes its units (there was one exploring the history and culture of the kayazy). Another great one is the Guts n Gears files, which are like the GK files, but are less about individuals, and more about the fluff behind unit types and warjack chassis (where they were made, how long they were in service for, development history etc). the NQ magazine is well worth a read - it has some excellent content and is well worth its price tag. i think they're re-releasing some of the fiction via skull island as well (see below). there is also regular fiction which includes both once off short stories, and stories that continue on the arc from those in books - for example, what happened to Kallus at the end of Domination is explained in one.

The third place (and my personal favourite) is the RPG material. Warmachine originated as a D20 RPG using the DnD open source licence. Their very first adventure was called "the witchfire trilogy" and is a great read, with some interesting little nuggets. The "old" D20 material comprised the character guides (which have a lot of the basic information, cosmology, history etc) 2 monsternomicons (with huge bits of info on infernals, and skorne culture/history, although its generally about the monsters that inhabit immoren), a small exansion on the port of Five Fingers, and the excellent world guide. I cannot recommend these enough; the World Guide in particular. its epic. you can literally smell the smoke when you read it, hear the clanking and grinding of gears and the hissing of steam engines. They're very, very engrossing lore books, and do a fantastic job of bringing the world to life - not just the history, but crime&punishment, trades and learning, entertainment, finance, language, cosmology, and lots of information on locations, towns, cities, forts, and the big names in all of them. Now, the old material is still online (if you know where to look; winkwinknudgenudge) but they're also all being updated by PP into a new RPG series using a proprietary rules system based off of the wargame. So far they have the IKRPG core rules, five fingers, a new monsternomicon and the excellent Kings Nations and Gods books. Again, all well worth the read. Coming up soon is the iron kingdoms: unleashed "complimentary" RPG which focuses on adventures in the wilds, and expands on the races to include tharn, farrow, gatormen etc. I’m quite looking forward to that one! i think the RPG material on its own is stellar, and really does a fantastic job of bringing the world to life - far more than you’d expect from a regular wargame.

The fourth place is PPs publishing wing. Skull island expeditions. https://skullislandx.com/
they don’t yet have the volume or the library of titles of the black library, but what’s there is very solid. I will particularly recommend the warcaster chronicle series (caine, butcher and shae so far), warlock chronicles (makeda and thagrosh), extraordinary zoology (brilliant little read!) and top of the pile is Into the Storm by larry correia (award winning author). The’ iron kingdoms excursions’ and ‘called to battle’ series of short stories that are quite fun, and enjoyable to read too.

 Makinit wrote:

And lastly it does not appear that there is any customization in the modelling.

Again, with respect, you are perpetuating a falsehood. conversions are possible in WMH. Rules are stricter but conversions are both allowed and encouraged, even in pp's magazine with some awesome competitions. Look at their most recent no quarter battle report with a customised farrow army (cygnaran and khadoran war hogs, cryxian road hog, converted brigands etc). Typically speaking, conversions also range from kit swaps to rather epic jobs. If you want to convert, go for it.

As to a few examples (steamroller tournament legal too).
HMS griffon gun carriage to airship conversion:
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?192274-HMS-Griffon-Gun-Carraige-to-Airship-Conversion

Legion of Mechablight:
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?198539-And-now-for-something-completely-different

The Crimson Harvest (A proxy Orgoth army):
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?194308-Crimson-Harvest-the-Revenge-of-the-Orgoth

Stormhammer: the assault on Sul:
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?98-Stormhammer-the-Assault-on-Sul

RECO stormwall:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqA6nbk2zos

General customised figures:
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?144918-Show-me-your-most-heavily-customized-figures!


conversion policy is strict, but fair, and only applies for PP run steamrollers. Even then, its not hard to work with. and ultimately the TO can OK things (and probably will, so long as its not silly - "this coke can is a juggernaut". like for like weapon swaps, using 50% of the original model, use PP bits... Nothing extraordinary really. I got the OK for various non PP and heavily converted models at a recent masters with the TO’s view being “if a blind monkey can tell what its supposed to be, its OK by me”….
amongst your local friends, and local tourneys, if they're ok with looser stuff, then play it.

 Makinit wrote:

These are all things I love about 40k that I see missing which is why I have not picked it up. Am I off base? Is Warmachine a good substitute for 40k? I don't want the opinion of a warmachine fanboy, I want to know what other 40k players think that is why I posted in the 40k section.

Yes. With respect,you’re quite off base. Is WMH a substitute for 40k? No, it’s a different game, at least IMO. It’s a really solid game however, and well worth investing in. Regarding the things you want out of a game (converting, lore etc), they’re there in PP’s game as well. For my personal point of view, 40k’s terrible imbalance (4th ed Iron Warriors fyi) burned me out and I took a break from the hobby for over a year. It was PP’s Warmachine and Hordes that made me fall in love with wargaming again. Take that for what you will.

And by the way, for what its worth, the ‘warmachine fanboy’ comment is not necessary. Especially when you say above how you want the POV for a 40k fanatic. You can ask these same questions in the PP forum too, and will probably generate answers that are as relevant and honest – the 40k fans that play WMH are as likely to post there as anywhere else. there are a lot of reasonable and well informed posters there too. As I said earlier, they’re not trolls, and they won’t have a go at you if you come in with genuine questions and concerns. A lot of us either played, or still play 40k anyway, or read the books.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Can't blame us for trying. (If you don't like the models you don't like the models, not much that can solve that problem. WMH is really not proxy friendly.)

Actually I can blame people for trying as this happens far too often. I state my opinion of the game and people try and "correct" me on it and sell me on the game. It's one of the things I don't like about the Warmachine community, the fact I don't like the game isn't wrong people, it's just my opinion.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Can't blame us for trying. (If you don't like the models you don't like the models, not much that can solve that problem. WMH is really not proxy friendly.)

Actually I can blame people for trying as this happens far too often. I state my opinion of the game and people try and "correct" me on it and sell me on the game. It's one of the things I don't like about the Warmachine community, the fact I don't like the game isn't wrong people, it's just my opinion.

Unless your opinions of WM/H are based on incorrect assumptions like the OP's.
(Not saying yours is, but I do see it quite often.)

Edit: And Deadnight, you're my hero. I'm going to copy and past that post and just quote that.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Can't blame us for trying. (If you don't like the models you don't like the models, not much that can solve that problem. WMH is really not proxy friendly.)

Actually I can blame people for trying as this happens far too often. I state my opinion of the game and people try and "correct" me on it and sell me on the game. It's one of the things I don't like about the Warmachine community, the fact I don't like the game isn't wrong people, it's just my opinion.

Unless your opinions of WM/H are based on incorrect assumptions like the OP's.
(Not saying yours is, but I do see it quite often.)

Edit: And Deadnight, you're my hero. I'm going to copy and past that post and just quote that.

I was just "corrected" for my opinion on Warmachine's rule density in this thread. I'd say some people can't leave well enough alone in that aspect.

I skimmed only, but my take, having been a 40k player for four years that switched to WM/H, the latter game is far more tactical. The "line-up and roll dice 'til win condition" is much more 40k than it is WM/H. Games can be won without tossing a single dice in WM/H (I've seen it, not done it yet).

The dice system in WM/H is superior to 40k because 40k is just rolling on obscure, non-intuitive tables (weapon skill, anyone?) on an unmodified D6. And boat loads of them. WM/H uses a 2d6 + X target system and dice rolls can be modified accordingly with additional dice or removing dice, whichever the case may be. Trying for a target of 14 with a base stat of 7 and rolling 4d6 means it's likely to happen versus the limited returns on stats/skills in 40k.

Privateer Press is a tighter ship than GW with a better integration of fluff with the rules. You do not play "codex roulette" where you need to consider if what you're buying today will be any good tomorrow or two years from now. There are considerations to be made of WM/H models/units, and yes, some are garbage, but there are no "Chaos Marines" or "Dark Angels" where the army is just absolute garbage. Retribution is probably the closest to that and can still win a ton of games with people who aren't familiar to their tricks.

I could go on further, but if you're in it for a game, WM/H is the better game. If you're in it for a narrative, then I'd recommend the FFG 40k role playing or board games. If you're in for an overpriced futile effort in pushing plastic, then 40k is your choice, for certain.

 TheKbob wrote:
but there are no "Chaos Marines" or "Dark Angels" where the army is just absolute garbage.

Our day will come.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Can't blame us for trying. (If you don't like the models you don't like the models, not much that can solve that problem. WMH is really not proxy friendly.)

Actually I can blame people for trying as this happens far too often. I state my opinion of the game and people try and "correct" me on it and sell me on the game. It's one of the things I don't like about the Warmachine community, the fact I don't like the game isn't wrong people, it's just my opinion.

Unless your opinions of WM/H are based on incorrect assumptions like the OP's.
(Not saying yours is, but I do see it quite often.)

Edit: And Deadnight, you're my hero. I'm going to copy and past that post and just quote that.

I was just "corrected" for my opinion on Warmachine's rule density in this thread. I'd say some people can't leave well enough alone in that aspect.

I don't want to start a fight here so I'm going to say exactly one more thing on the subject and then drop it; but saying WMH is more rules-dense and complicated than 40k is a lot like players who complain that 40k is too expensive and then go right back to dumping hundreds of dollars a month on MTG cards. I respect your opinion, Zion, and I understand it (I started playing 40k in 4e and I, too, found WMH intimidating for a long time), but I do not share it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadnight wrote:

 Makinit wrote:

I live in the land of Privateer Press here in Redmond WA so it is really hard to get a game of 40k. In the two years since I have lived here I have only managed to pick up about a dozen games. So I am considering playing Warmachine which is played daily at every hobby store in the area.

Surely if you have questions or queries regarding WMH, you’d be better off asking in the PP sub forum? They’re not trolls, and they’re not gonna bite your head off for asking questions, or voicing concerns.

Most of the time. Some of us delight in being contradictory but we're all very polite about it.

 TheKbob wrote:
There are considerations to be made of WM/H models/units, and yes, some are garbage, but there are no "Chaos Marines" or "Dark Angels" where the army is just absolute garbage. Retribution is probably the closest to that and can still win a ton of games with people who aren't familiar to their tricks.

So, how are those Pigs treating you lately?



P.S. I just wish more people actually played Infinity. It seems like a good best of both worlds for people who enjoy both games, but it doesn't get played too much. I guess a lot of people complain about the models, and I could see it. I was a hard line "I hate these models so I won't touch this game" guy myself for quite a while until I found a faction that clicked for me, and then I realized how harshly I was judging an entire game's aesthetics because of a couple over the top silly things.

 MWHistorian wrote:
The fluff is actually quite engrossing and deep. You should take a look. Read "Into the Storm" by Larry Correia for a good intro into the world.

Warmachine is much more tactical than 40k and better yet, the rules match the fluff. The fluff and rules both support and enhance each other in a way 40k hasn't been able to do in a long time.
(look at the rules for the Withershadow Combine for Cryx for an example of what I'm talking about.)

Right.
The 40k rules are sufficient to play entertaining apoc games and we play such games every one or two months.
Look at the maelstorm mission. In a competitive setting these missions are too random.
WMH has the tighter rule set and great support for the community. Have a look at steamroller rules and press gangers.
The only downside are the models. GW models are so much better.
And yeah, the Withershadow Combine is a great unit.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
The fluff is actually quite engrossing and deep. You should take a look. Read "Into the Storm" by Larry Correia for a good intro into the world.

Warmachine is much more tactical than 40k and better yet, the rules match the fluff. The fluff and rules both support and enhance each other in a way 40k hasn't been able to do in a long time.
(look at the rules for the Withershadow Combine for Cryx for an example of what I'm talking about.)

Right.
The 40k rules are sufficient to play entertaining apoc games and we play such games every one or two months.
Look at the maelstorm mission. In a competitive setting these missions are too random.
WMH has the tighter rule set and great support for the community. Have a look at steamroller rules and press gangers.
The only downside are the models. GW models are so much better.
And yeah, the Withershadow Combine is a great unit.

Honestly when looking at models I think GW is behind, with only a few exceptional peaces that are amazing. And they are mostly forgeworld peaces that cost far to much money :0.
Difernt asthetics likes and such, but I think a lot of GW gets a pass on he fact that people are used to it. There are some great minis in GW line up. But they have some truely awful ones also.

Thanks for all the feedback guys. My main goal was to find out if people who love 40k also enjoy WM. Seems like the answer is generally yes. It appears there is more to the game than just slamming two armies together and rolling to see who wins, which is good. My view on the fluff is derived from the conversations at my FLGS where they play WM religiously but never seem to talk about any of the fluff. I guess lack of interest in WM fluff is a common thing. As for model appearance and customization it sounds like for main stream WM this is an issue. The thread makes it seem easy enough to just field any faction and have a good game. So I guess I will just find some models I like the look of and figure out the minimum necessary to play. After all as pointed out in this thread, it is better to play a game you're less into than to play no game at all.

 Makinit wrote:
Thanks for all the feedback guys. My main goal was to find out if people who love 40k also enjoy WM. Seems like the answer is generally yes. It appears there is more to the game than just slamming two armies together and rolling to see who wins, which is good. My view on the fluff is derived from the conversations at my FLGS where they play WM religiously but never seem to talk about any of the fluff. I guess lack of interest in WM fluff is a common thing. As for model appearance and customization it sounds like for main stream WM this is an issue. The thread makes it seem easy enough to just field any faction and have a good game. So I guess I will just find some models I like the look of and figure out the minimum necessary to play. After all as pointed out in this thread, it is better to play a game you're less into than to play no game at all.

Well, you can't just pick any random models. Unit synergy + caster is important. You got to have a plan. Which caster you choose will change the army's play style. Your caster/leader really makes a big difference on how your army performs.

Apple fox wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
The fluff is actually quite engrossing and deep. You should take a look. Read "Into the Storm" by Larry Correia for a good intro into the world.

Warmachine is much more tactical than 40k and better yet, the rules match the fluff. The fluff and rules both support and enhance each other in a way 40k hasn't been able to do in a long time.
(look at the rules for the Withershadow Combine for Cryx for an example of what I'm talking about.)

Right.
The 40k rules are sufficient to play entertaining apoc games and we play such games every one or two months.
Look at the maelstorm mission. In a competitive setting these missions are too random.
WMH has the tighter rule set and great support for the community. Have a look at steamroller rules and press gangers.
The only downside are the models. GW models are so much better.
And yeah, the Withershadow Combine is a great unit.

Honestly when looking at models I think GW is behind, with only a few exceptional peaces that are amazing. And they are mostly forgeworld peaces that cost far to much money :0.
Difernt asthetics likes and such, but I think a lot of GW gets a pass on he fact that people are used to it. There are some great minis in GW line up. But they have some truely awful ones also.

TBH, this is my impression too.

The best 40k (this includes FW too) models that I've seen are better than the best WMH models that I've seen, but no average, if you pick let's say a random trooper from a unit WMH seems to me to have slightly better models.

 Makinit wrote:
Thanks for all the feedback guys. My main goal was to find out if people who love 40k also enjoy WM. Seems like the answer is generally yes. It appears there is more to the game than just slamming two armies together and rolling to see who wins, which is good. My view on the fluff is derived from the conversations at my FLGS where they play WM religiously but never seem to talk about any of the fluff. I guess lack of interest in WM fluff is a common thing. As for model appearance and customization it sounds like for main stream WM this is an issue. The thread makes it seem easy enough to just field any faction and have a good game. So I guess I will just find some models I like the look of and figure out the minimum necessary to play. After all as pointed out in this thread, it is better to play a game you're less into than to play no game at all.

The best place to start is to pick a Caster/Warlock and then the rest will fall into place. If you give us an idea of the personality or style of play you prefer we can make some recommendations.

 dementedwombat wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
There are considerations to be made of WM/H models/units, and yes, some are garbage, but there are no "Chaos Marines" or "Dark Angels" where the army is just absolute garbage. Retribution is probably the closest to that and can still win a ton of games with people who aren't familiar to their tricks.

So, how are those Pigs treating you lately?



P.S. I just wish more people actually played Infinity. It seems like a good best of both worlds for people who enjoy both games, but it doesn't get played too much. I guess a lot of people complain about the models, and I could see it. I was a hard line "I hate these models so I won't touch this game" guy myself for quite a while until I found a faction that clicked for me, and then I realized how harshly I was judging an entire game's aesthetics because of a couple over the top silly things.

That's nearly like asking can you play something like Harlequins as an entire army without suffering a severe detriment. All the minions players I've met know it's not a full faction and that design space is limited, meaning unlike GW, PP will take the time to fill out an army correctly versus coughing out a bunch of schlock for people to buy.

But minions also have been placing recently, so there's that too. Funny, they found a great fix for pigs.... Let them play 15 points up! XD

Sounds good Crimson. I will start a new thread on the WM side for this.