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Yep I can see both sides; however I tend to try and take the least advantageous side until I'm certain of how it works. Also, just a feeling here, but I doubt that GW intended for a pre-movement phase deep strike. RAW that may be how they wrote it; however it's a bit of a stretch to me to think that it's actually RAI. That's merely my HIWPI, though, and not a rules stance of course. It just tips me over to the one side. Who knows, maybe GW will release a FAQ one day and clarify it (ha)


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I mean, it's not so crazy to think that it could work that way - it's just a rather vague line in the sand to draw and say "I deep strike before the movement phase starts and therefore can act as if I didn't deep strike in at all, except for charging restrictions".

FWIW, I do hope that's how they clarify it to work (or TOs rule it to work) as it goes a long way towards the viability of that army in general

Not saying this is how it should be played. Just saying it could be read that way.

And it could be relevant with to late-game summoning-for-objectives too. Good blood tithe-points to spare in turn 6? Summon some Flesh Hounds AND move them 12" and fleet-run them? Sounds like good reach for objectives or line breaker, if that is how the rule could be interpreted.

Well you guys seems to make a confusion.

be it through the blood tithe summon or norma Deep Strike, The units comes into play in the Beginning of the turn "phase", wich GW was really lazy to name since other games with this system name it "Upkeep phase" "Initiative phase" or something else.

If you read page 17 of the rule book you see that a turn is segmented in 6 phases.

1-beginning of the turn.
2-Movement phase
3-Psychic phase.
4-Shooting phase.
5-Assault phase( wich contains the fight sub-phase)
6-End of the turn.

Units with the Deep strike rule, come into play in the Begining of the Turn "phase", thats when the "movement" of the DS happens.

Then the unit enters the movement phase, now just to be clear, there is no way that the model that DS'ed can Move further or assault the same turn, the DS rules are very clear on that.

But eve, though the DS rules says that you can't move during the movement phase, it doesn't say that the model cannot do anything else in the movement phase, or that it ignores the movement phase, or that the model doesn't get a movement phase.

Just "don't move", wich is not a requirement to be able to switch flight mode.

Also the rules about FMC in DS, doesn't say " the player have to declare that the FMC is in swooping", it says that the FMC is TREATED as been swooping.

Just like a FMC that was deployed on the table goes, turn 1 in swooping and then at the beginning of its movement phase turn 2, it is treated as Swooping still, and you simply declare that you change or not.

All this only means that a BT or DP or even any other FMC for the matter that comes in DS, can assault next turn like any other unit that DS, and is not obligated to wait an Extra turn before been able to do so.

If you read P162 of the BRB, it says that you need to Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves.

So, if you are stating that they are in reserve, if they are being summoned, then you can bring them in on a 3+ roll?

Or are the Bloodthirsters not in reserve and therefore not in Deep strike reserve? And if they arent in Deep Strike Reserve, then they dont need to be swooping (putting aside the valid argument of changing flight modes after deepstriking.)

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
[...]Then the unit enters the movement phase, now just to be clear, there is no way that the model that DS'ed can Move further or assault the same turn, the DS rules are very clear on that.[...]

I think you are wrong there. There is no rule prohibiting the Bloodthirster to move.
BRB on Deep Striking:
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one."

The Bloodthirster didn't arrive during a Movement phase, so there is no "[...] Movement phase during which they arrive. [...]". So the Movement phase after that non-existing Movement phase, there is no restriction on moving.

 Hansisaf wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
[...]Then the unit enters the movement phase, now just to be clear, there is no way that the model that DS'ed can Move further or assault the same turn, the DS rules are very clear on that.[...]

I think you are wrong there. There is no rule prohibiting the Bloodthirster to move.
BRB on Deep Striking:
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one."

The Bloodthirster didn't arrive during a Movement phase, so there is no "[...] Movement phase during which they arrive. [...]". So the Movement phase after that non-existing Movement phase, there is no restriction on moving.

So that line is entirely irrelevant in all situations? Or could they have possibly meant the movement of the turn in which they arrive *an entirely possible meaning to that sentence that doesn't completely invalidate it in all situations).

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Hansisaf wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
[...]Then the unit enters the movement phase, now just to be clear, there is no way that the model that DS'ed can Move further or assault the same turn, the DS rules are very clear on that.[...]

I think you are wrong there. There is no rule prohibiting the Bloodthirster to move.
BRB on Deep Striking:
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one."

The Bloodthirster didn't arrive during a Movement phase, so there is no "[...] Movement phase during which they arrive. [...]". So the Movement phase after that non-existing Movement phase, there is no restriction on moving.

So that line is entirely irrelevant in all situations? Or could they have possibly meant the movement of the turn in which they arrive *an entirely possible meaning to that sentence that doesn't completely invalidate it in all situations).

It doesn't invalidate in all situations. You'll be Deep Striking during the Movement phase usually (Deep Striking normal Reserve units).

RAW, the way I see it, it doesn't apply.
RAI, I believe GW just forgot about that FMC's are in Swooping mode when they arrive, so they probably intended for the Bloodthirster to be around for one turn before it can charge. Same goes for any other FMC being summoned.

I think you need to recheck when reserves happen.

 luke1705 wrote:
Actually upon further examination I have to redact my previous statement. This is because changing flight modes says "at the start of [the model's] move" and deep strike into the table is obviously a move. So can you do something "at the start of your move" before you move onto the table? You could, except for the fact that you have to be swooping when you deep strike onto the table. Therefore, you're already locked into swooping for that turn since you didn't declare gliding at the start of your move (which again, you couldn't since you had to be swooping to arrive via deep strike)

To sum up the sequence of events:

1) bloodthirster is summoned at the start of the turn via blood tithe, before movement phase

2) bloodthirster must declare swooping to come in via deep strike

3) bloodthirster moves onto the table via deep strike

4) since bloodthirster has already moved this turn, the "start of its move" has already passed and it must wait to alter flight mode until next turn

When you say it is "obvious" that deep striking is a move. Where in the rules does it say deep striking is a move? Or is that just your interpretation? Also the rules say you switch modes "at the start of your move" not "when your model moves" which to me sounds like at the start of one's movement step where he moves his models, which happens after blood tithe is spend and bloodthirster is summoned..therefore it can change.

You cannot move further requires that ds is a move.

Just called customer service...while they told me they cannot directly rule on things, but I presented both sides of the arguement to him and he strongly implied that the blood tithe summoning bloodthirster is a unique rule and that it should be treated differently from the usual deep strike rule in the rulebook, due to when it occurs and that it trumps rulebook.

You do realize that GW's customer service has no special insight into the rules? That's why the forum tenets say that only the rulebooks and the current FAQs are official sources of information.

 Ghaz wrote:
You do realize that GW's customer service has no special insight into the rules? That's why the forum tenets say that only the rulebooks and the current FAQs are official sources of information.

It may not be the answer to the discussion but it is worth noting at least. At least I appreciated hearing it. Now whether that actually changes my opinion (it doesn't because that's what I thought the entire time) is something different. It's just food for thought.

But he should have said such along with that experience.

Yeah sorry I was not trying to present it as a reliable source or anything ( the rep told me as much) just wanted to add to the conversation.

The rep ultimately brought up the arguement of codex trumping rulebook,which i didnt consider before (and i did not see it discussed yet )

Sorry again

Angrygrot wrote:
Yeah sorry I was not trying to present it as a reliable source or anything ( the rep told me as much) just wanted to add to the conversation.

The rep ultimately brought up the arguement of codex trumping rulebook,which i didnt consider before (and i did not see it discussed yet )

Sorry again

Codex vs Rulebook wasn't brought up because it is entirely irrelevant. The codex says nothing about what the BT can or can't do after he DSs in. Only the rulebook tells us this and it says no further movement and you arrive swooping. Case closed.

Taken from thediceabide

"It’s important to note that while similar to summoning Daemons using the conjuration type spells found in Daemonology, it is NOT the same. Conjuration psychic powers specifically state that they treat the models as if it’s coming in from Reserves, hence when you summon a winged greater daemon using Daemonology, it will be swooping (Deep Strike Reserves). This is not the case for the Blood Tithe table, the model does not come from Deep Strike Reserves, nor is it said that it is treated as coming in from reserves in any way, so it does not need to Swoop (Swooping is required when coming in from Deep Strike Reserves), meaning your Bloodthrister can charge the turn after it is summoned (Deep Strike still prevents charging the same turn), instead of 2 turns later as with standard Daemonology."


Food for thought

How do you deep strike without triggering the DS Reserves rules?

Codex trumps rulebook? Codex says deep strike not deep strike reserves, therefore the swooping rule is invalid? Loophole?

Does the codex say you don't use the DS reserves rules or is it silent on the matter? The codex has to tell you to do something that the BRB forbids for codex vs rulebook to come into it.

From 'Deep Strike' in the Warhammer 40K main rulebook:

In order for a unit to Deep Strike, all the models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.

In order for their to be a conflict, the codex would have to specifically state that they are Deep Striking even though they did not start the game in Reserve.

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Deep Strike' in the Warhammer 40K main rulebook:

In order for a unit to Deep Strike, all the models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.

In order for their to be a conflict, the codex would have to specifically state that they are Deep Striking even though they did not start the game in Reserve.

That seems to apply to units with the deep strike rule that are not summoned...that would imply that my bloodthirster that I may or may not summon needs to be put in reserve just in case I do? Ehhhhh....

No. It applies to all units using the Deep Strike rule unless specifically stated otherwise. Please provide where that exception is stated.

In the codex it says the unit immediately deep strikes...not from reserves...

Angrygrot wrote:
Codex trumps rulebook? Codex says deep strike not deep strike reserves, therefore the swooping rule is invalid? Loophole?

Also if you're trying to find ways to make your interpretation correct you are on dangerous grounds. You're not trying to figure out how the rules work your trying to find a loophole to abuse which is not a great attitude to have. The rules here are clear, are they what Daemonkin players wantthem to be? No. Is the wanted rule OP? Again no. But it is not the rules, I want tac marines to have relentless, its not OP and fixes one of 40k's most iconic units. However it is not the rules.


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Angrygrot wrote:
In the codex it says the unit immediately deep strikes...not from reserves...

It doesn't say not from reserves, it remains silent on reserves. We know it is something they do immediately so we know we don't have to roll for them and didn't have to declare they Werner in DS reserve during deployment. These are the things that the codex contradicts and therefore overrides. Not whether they are coming from DS reserve.

Angrygrot wrote:
In the codex it says the unit immediately deep strikes...not from reserves...

And the rules for Deep Strike says from Reserves, regardless of whether the codex mentions Reserves or not. So are you intentionally ignoring a part of the Deep Strike rules with nothing telling you that you can?

Another way to try to explain this. The codex says CSMs are Bs4, does this override snap shots? It says they are BS4 and doesn't mention snap shots. Your line of thinking would result in literally everyone always snap shooting at full BS...

Whether the unit was placed in reserve or not is irrelevant. The rules for Deep Strike clearly equate "arriving by Deep Strike" with arriving by "Deep Strike Reserve":

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

The designer's note for units being summoned clearly states:

"When a rule indicates that a unit is summoned, a new unit under your control immediately arrives via Deep Strike..."

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Whether the unit was placed in reserve or not is irrelevant. The rules for Deep Strike clearly equate "arriving by Deep Strike" with arriving by "Deep Strike Reserve":

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

The designer's note for units being summoned clearly states:

"When a rule indicates that a unit is summoned, a new unit under your control immediately arrives via Deep Strike..."

Your first quote is telling players that they must declare the Deep Strike intent when they are placing the unit in Reserves, which you do not do.

The rule says to immediately place a Bloodthirster via Deep Strike. Not Deep Strike Reserves, Deep Strike. Deep Strike Reserves adds an entirely new level of rules that disallows certain actions. Deep Strike is different than Deep Strike Reserves. I know your first quote appears to say otherwise, but it only references them as the same when you are placing a unit in Reserves, which you never do with the Bloodthirster.

Don't have the book in front of me, but if i recall,

1. the rule book says that they may not make a move after deep striking
2. flight mode is determined as they begin moving.

then it seems they are set to swoop by default to answer that issue, since they are not allowed to make a further movement and need to have a flight mode.

slamma wrote:
Don't have the book in front of me, but if i recall,

1. the rule book says that they may not make a move after deep striking
2. flight mode is determined as they begin moving.

then it seems they are set to swoop by default to answer that issue, since they are not allowed to make a further movement and need to have a flight mode.

Correct. A unit that arrives via Deep Strike in the Movement Phase may not make any additional moves. However, the unit does not arrive in the Movement Phase, it arrives immediately in the Start of Your Turn Phase. Normal units arriving from Reserves must move onto the table- often by Deep Strike- and so cannot move further. But because the Bloodthirster does not arrive in the Movement Phase AND is not a Reserves the act of Deep Strike does not cause a move. Therefore, it may change its flight mode.