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 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
This one is just, just short of the $1 per point line



$48 for a 50 point transport.

Which again we'd supposedly want in bulk.

Compared to the Chimera, more points for $37



Granted it can also make an 80pt Taurox Prime but few units can even use that.

Now if GW has cut those options, sold the truck for $30 (and give it wheels and a suspension, but that's another story) I'd be interested in a picking up a few. But as is.... Nope.

Pass.

Behold the Killer of Kidneys....

I have sometimes thought about this model, and modifying it for steampunk purposes... but at that price, no.

The Auld Grump - and the steampunk version would involve spoked iron wheels... you can write off your spine at the same time as your kidneys....

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Not so long ago it seemed that GW had, well, some limits to their greed.

Kits were more or less priced according to their in-game utility so common units were cheaper than rarer ones.

But it seems that's out the window these days with a lot of kits coming in at more than US$1 per point.

One jumped out at me when I got an old WD spotlighting the orks, in particular their mek gunz.



Now don't get me wrong it is one heckuva nice kit, especially if you remember the one it replaced.





But... $46 for a 18 point model? Even with the most expensive upgrade it's still only 30 points!

How many of these does GW expect to sell?

Ever?

Sure there's lots of bitz left over, but you'd have to scratch build a whole new carriage to make anything useful out of them.

So anyway, what other terrible buys are there?

It is however a glorious time for 3rd party companies like us.

I calculated some points per dollar for Bolt Action plastic models. I estimate that in BA point costs are a bit higher, around 1.33x the points compared to 40k - for example the base cost for an average tank is 150 pts for a Leman Russ vs 200 pts for a Panzer IV. Adjusting to that, I came to the following '40k comparable points per dollar' with list prices:

BA plastic kits:

Basic infantry 6 pts / USD
Basic tanks 4,25 pts / USD
Heavy tanks 10 pts / USD (BA vehicles all are about $30 per box, independent of points costs)
Transports 1,85 pts / USD

40k plastic kits:

Basic infantry 1,75 pts / USD (3.5 x BA cost)
Basic tanks 3 pts / USD (1.4 x BA cost)
Transports 1,85 pts / USD (1.0 x BA cost)

 the_Armyman wrote:


I'm actually mildly embarassed I purchased it and then bought an $18 resin conversion kit to make it look presentable. Not to mention the hours of plasticard work and turret conversion that will be necessary in addition to the $66 total investment...

Don't be, there's nothign wrong with buying and lavishing care on a kit you like.

My issue is that GW did not get where it is by convincing people to buy one Rhino and kit it out. They got where they are by convincing us to buy a dozen or more rhinos, which when they cost $25 to $30 is a bit of money, but over time not that much. And they're useful!

But when marginal units cost $50 or more people won't buy them in bulk, the might buy one but that's about it.

And GW seems to have really lost this aspect of the plot.



I mean look at this thing...



Just a gorgeous model.

But who's going to buy more than one? Ever, even at $60 a pop can GW sell enough to ever make back their investment in this model?

Coming back to the theme of $1 per point we have the Justice Jogger.



FANTASTIC model. I love the gimp servitor driving it, I like how the rider looks like a 19th C cavalry man.

But it's $49 for a 45 point model!

Again I might get one to model and paint but will I really get a dozen of them?

Will anyone?

GW really needs to rethink how they make and price kits. The Jogger could be a simpler, smaller kit and sell a lot more units for $25. But at $49?

Something to think about. No one puts a gun to your head and forces you to buy the stuff, the fault is not GW but the bitchy consumer.

Kroot Hounds. $27 AUD for 20pts worth of models (of which you only really want to field 1 of the 4 anyway).
It was worse when they were metal :(.

Broadsides are pretty bad. $75 AUD for a 70pt model, which in game you most likely want to field in 2 squads of 3.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
[

But who's going to buy more than one? Ever, even at $60 a pop can GW sell enough to ever make back their investment in this model?

GW's investment costs aren't that high, really (let's say $50k per kit, maybe, for design and moulds). Plastic is cheap, so after the production investment, materials for each kit cost probably something like $5, so each kit is mostly profit. They also are able to sell a ton of each kit, thanks to their enormous presence around the globe. Even the Forge World Warlord Titan has sold over 1000 units, so yeah there are buyers even for very expensive stuff.

This is why GW is able to keep making profit, even with the outrageous prices. $50-100 is something you can splurge every now and then, if you really think it's cool. I see problems in the future, though, as many smaller companies are making the move to plastic and giving GW a run for their money. It depends how nimble GW replying to the challenge - I personally think the prices are beyond sensible already, but they actually might be shrewd enough to milk the market while they are still ahead, and drop the prices later.

 Achaylus72 wrote:
Something to think about. No one puts a gun to your head and forces you to buy the stuff, the fault is not GW but the bitchy consumer.

Did you completely miss the point of the thread? Although price is a component of what we're discussing, the thread is actually about value. There's a disconnect between what a model costs in game and what it costs IRL. This disconnect causes loss of sales since MOST people take mutliple things into consideration when they make a purchase. Is it a nice sculpt? Does it fit into my army's theme? Is it good in game? Does it fit into my budget? As an example, if something costs me $50, but I need 6 or more of them to make the unit work on the table, then the game designer and the accountant weren't on the same page.

But you're right. GW's problem is a dearth of bitchy consumers rather than blind, brain-damaged, and wealthy ones.

I've become increasingly convinced that GW doesn't bother with selling multiples to gamers, they want to sell one each to collectors.

I really think a lot of people buy this stuff and either hoard it, paint it and never play it, or play it once or twice a year.

 Polonius wrote:
I've become increasingly convinced that GW doesn't bother with selling multiples to gamers, they want to sell one each to collectors.

I really think a lot of people buy this stuff and either hoard it, paint it and never play it, or play it once or twice a year.

And I'm guilty of that (as I pack up the crap I bought in just one @#$%ing year of training).

But as a painter/collector/hoarder I buy a lot less than I would as a gamer starting new armies.

And it shows in the bottom line, sales down year after year after year.

Even the biggest WWII model fan is not going to buy a dozen Shermans, but even a casual GW fan will end up with a dozen or more rhinos/chimeras/trukks/etc.

that was GW's strength.

But these days they seem to be making ever more complex kits for more money that sell fewer and fewer units.

 Polonius wrote:
I've become increasingly convinced that GW doesn't bother with selling multiples to gamers, they want to sell one each to collectors.

I really think a lot of people buy this stuff and either hoard it, paint it and never play it, or play it once or twice a year.

I started down that path myself, then realised GW models aren't actually good enough to be showcase models and moved on

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
I've become increasingly convinced that GW doesn't bother with selling multiples to gamers, they want to sell one each to collectors.

I really think a lot of people buy this stuff and either hoard it, paint it and never play it, or play it once or twice a year.

And I'm guilty of that (as I pack up the crap I bought in just one @#$%ing year of training).

But as a painter/collector/hoarder I buy a lot less than I would as a gamer starting new armies.

And it shows in the bottom line, sales down year after year after year.

Even the biggest WWII model fan is not going to buy a dozen Shermans, but even a casual GW fan will end up with a dozen or more rhinos/chimeras/trukks/etc.

that was GW's strength.

But these days they seem to be making ever more complex kits for more money that sell fewer and fewer units.

the question is: how many people are willing to buy one nagash, and how many people are willing to buy six udated Ork Trukks.

We can assume one of two things: Either GW has no clue who its market is, and continues to try to get gamers to buy huge characters, or GW knows exacly who its market is, and considers the guy that buys multiples for an army gravy.

It's easy to tag GW as incompetent, but they really aren't. They know who buys their stuff. They might be letting another market lie farrow, but they still know who is buying the bulk of their stuff.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:


I'm actually mildly embarassed I purchased it and then bought an $18 resin conversion kit to make it look presentable. Not to mention the hours of plasticard work and turret conversion that will be necessary in addition to the $66 total investment...

Don't be, there's nothign wrong with buying and lavishing care on a kit you like.

My issue is that GW did not get where it is by convincing people to buy one Rhino and kit it out. They got where they are by convincing us to buy a dozen or more rhinos, which when they cost $25 to $30 is a bit of money, but over time not that much. And they're useful!

But when marginal units cost $50 or more people won't buy them in bulk, the might buy one but that's about it.

And GW seems to have really lost this aspect of the plot.



I mean look at this thing...



Just a gorgeous model.

But who's going to buy more than one? Ever, even at $60 a pop can GW sell enough to ever make back their investment in this model?

I really, really hate that model.

I can see why many people like it - and as an illo in a book I would be fine with it.

But for a tabletop game?

I really, really hate it.

But the sad thing is - if somebody had fielded it as a massive, homebuilt, conversion I would have fallen all over myself with praise.

It is only as something that might show up in any VC army that the model irritates me. Special gets less special when it is mass produced.

The Auld Grump

I really can see both sides of the argument here. On the gamer's side, it really sucks to spend $46 on a model that you will need 6 of. On GW's side, nice models take a lot of money sunk in development time, manufacturing cost, and raw materials, regardless of how many points it may be worth in game.

I almost wonder if GW could successfully address this issue by introducing an "Official Proxy Model" line for certain models. They would be basic models without tons of detail, etc, not to be updated for long term, that would be priced at a much more achievable cost of entry point. for someone building an army.

The goal here is that as a player I want to get my Ork army off the ground asap. I don't want to wait 6 months while I budget the funds to acquire all of the expensive models that I need. So I use the basic models to get my army rolling, then over time I can upgrade to the official, nicer models and have an army that looks great.

Suks wrote:
I really can see both sides of the argument here. On the gamer's side, it really sucks to spend $46 on a model that you will need 6 of. On GW's side, nice models take a lot of money sunk in development time, manufacturing cost, and raw materials, regardless of how many points it may be worth in game.

I almost wonder if GW could successfully address this issue by introducing an "Official Proxy Model" line for certain models. They would be basic models without tons of detail, etc, not to be updated for long term, that would be priced at a much more achievable cost of entry point. for someone building an army.

The goal here is that as a player I want to get my Ork army off the ground asap. I don't want to wait 6 months while I budget the funds to acquire all of the expensive models that I need. So I use the basic models to get my army rolling, then over time I can upgrade to the official, nicer models and have an army that looks great.

An easier solution is to be construct rules that don't reward multiples of high cost, low point units.

One problem I have with 40k recently *** pulls out soapbox and ascends it *** is that the "armies" that people play don't look like armies! it's a hodge podge of support and elite units, alllies and detachments, with no meat. Call me old fashioned, but a space marine army should have a couple of tactical squads, maybe some scouts, a dreadnought, an assault squad, and a devestator squad. IG armies should have plenty of lads, and a few tanks.

In an ideal world, the Taurox would be fine, because you take one for a specific unit. You also take one of each high priced model: one hellhound, and one Wyvvern, and one Manticore, etc. Make variety useful again!

I've got two horse drawn limbers for my Bolt Action Italians. Even vet they cost 12 points. They are a total liability for the Italians and game wise they are pretty rotten and uneccesary (but they look good and fit my army theme so meh). They probably cost me in the region of £15 to £20 to make (kit bashed to bejesus) so thats what? $20-$30 funny money? There are always going to be odd discrepencies like that in any rules set.

A dollar per point is an imaginary line that bears no resemblence to the worth of a model to an individual or to its use in their army.

IIRC, in the mid-90s before the plastic zombies box, zombies hit the $1 per point mark, selling for $5-6 for a blister of two. Skavenslaves, same thing. I'm sure there were other examples back then, especially on the WFB side.

GW prices have always considered to be high and unsustainable. I remember paying $8 for a blister of Aspect Warriors in the late '80s and thought that was ridiculous in an age when most mini blisters cost half that.

 Pete Melvin wrote:
I've got two horse drawn limbers for my Bolt Action Italians. Even vet they cost 12 points. They are a total liability for the Italians and game wise they are pretty rotten and uneccesary (but they look good and fit my army theme so meh). They probably cost me in the region of £15 to £20 to make (kit bashed to bejesus) so thats what? $20-$30 funny money? There are always going to be odd discrepencies like that in any rules set.

A dollar per point is an imaginary line that bears no resemblence to the worth of a model to an individual or to its use in their army.

The problem is that GW writes rules based upon a mechanic that taking certain units in larger numbers has beneficial results. They encourage you with their rules writing, and then discourage you with their pricing structure. The middle ground lies where a model is priced at a level where they can make money AND sell an effective, point-efficient unit on the tabletop. Maybe the designers, production, and accounting can all sit down and have that chat?

As for the "imaginery line" of points = dollars, I can assure you that I could never afford to purchase an army at $1 per point. That's not very imaginery, IMO.

 the_Armyman wrote:

As for the "imaginery line" of points = dollars, I can assure you that I could never afford to purchase an army at $1 per point. That's not very imaginery, IMO.

Especially for the "mainstream" lines. Prices like that were one thing for Forgeworld, where it was always known they were an expensive niche within an expensive niche.

Unfortunately, many mainline products now match or exceed FW pricing, even for similar units.

For me, one of the biggest things is that the impulse buy is gone. I used to buy all sorts of stuff just because it looked cool, I've probably got 60 or so models that I bought just for cool factor alone. At $8-15, every couple of weeks or so, that was one thing. But now? Absolutely not. I was looking at the new AdMech Dominus, and then I saw it was *$36* for a single blister character. That's more than I paid for a metal Daemon Prince three times his size just a few short years ago. That's more than *Forgeworld's* Magos Dominus That's *way* out of impulse buy range.

I understand the principle that you can make more money selling fewer (higher end) products at higher prices, but when you're doubling or tripling prices, for the same products, that's hard to sustain, and looking at GW's revenue numbers, it doesn't look like it's having the desired effect, their inflation adjusted revenue continues to decline.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
I've become increasingly convinced that GW doesn't bother with selling multiples to gamers, they want to sell one each to collectors.

I really think a lot of people buy this stuff and either hoard it, paint it and never play it, or play it once or twice a year.

I started down that path myself, then realised GW models aren't actually good enough to be showcase models and moved on

@Polonius: i agree, i know a large number of collectors of GW minis who rarely (if ever) play, but love to paint the minis...
i think that Kirby would rather push for these type of customers, because we are less put off by the prices, knowing that we don't need to buy 10 Rhinos...

@Skink:i could not disagree more...
i think that a large part of GW's range make beautiful showcase models...
the "heroic scale", comic book styling, and physical 3D representation of the Warhammer settings are what make GW minis top of the heap for me...
no other setting inspires me the same way, even though i collect nearly a dozen different companies' minis...
the fact that the sculpts get better every year (for the most part) keeps me inspired to continue painting GW minis over all of the rest in my collection...

it would be interesting to hear what you think qualifies as "good enough" to be a showcase model...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
I've become increasingly convinced that GW doesn't bother with selling multiples to gamers, they want to sell one each to collectors.

I really think a lot of people buy this stuff and either hoard it, paint it and never play it, or play it once or twice a year.

I started down that path myself, then realised GW models aren't actually good enough to be showcase models and moved on

@Polonius: i agree, i know a large number of collectors of GW minis who rarely (if ever) play, but love to paint the minis...
i think that Kirby would rather push for these type of customers, because we are less put off by the prices, knowing that we don't need to buy 10 Rhinos...

@Skink:i could not disagree more...
i think that a large part of GW's range make beautiful showcase models...
the "heroic scale", comic book styling, and physical 3D representation of the Warhammer settings are what make GW minis top of the heap for me...
no other setting inspires me the same way, even though i collect nearly a dozen different companies' minis...
the fact that the sculpts get better every year (for the most part) keeps me inspired to continue painting GW minis over all of the rest in my collection...

it would be interesting to hear what you think qualifies as "good enough" to be a showcase model...

cheers
jah

The problem with that point of view is that the collectors market is a much smaller one, and few have any reason to buy more than a single unit or vehicle of each type.

That said - there are also companies that produce what I consider better looking models, with a similar or better price point, and not mass produced in plastic.

I like Kromlech orks better than the GW orks - and price wise... they produce a better looking mega armoured ork, in resin, at a lower price than GW plastic.

I think that Kirby has it in his head that the collectors' market can replace the gamers one, but that is because he has issues wit what IP means.

It would be more convenient for him if the collectors became his sole market - but I just don't see that happening.

The Auld Grump

@Vaktathi: i am actually on the opposite end of the spectrum...
everything i buy from GW is basically an impulse buy, since i don't play the games...
having been buying the models for 30 years, and seeing all of the price rises, i am still not bothered by it...
nearly everything else in my life has risen in price right along with GW minis...

taking your Tech-Priest Dominus example, i was happy to get him, because he is cooler looking than any other option out there for that type of model, in my opinion...
he is bigger than a Terminator, goes together perfectly (without any of FW's warping), beautifully sculpted, and a lot more durable than a resin mini (which is a bonus for whoever buys my painted version to use on the tabletop)...
the only FW Tech-Priest that i liked enough to buy is the classic Titan Tech-Priest, who is tiny next to this guy, but still one of my favorite FW minis...

the metal Demon Prince for 40K was nice, and one i bought...
the Fantasy ones did nothing for me, and wouldn't make my to-buy list at any price...
i am just not one of those who compares what i bought something for 15 years ago with today's prices...

it is interesting to see how others value their money...
seeing people say that $6 is too much for ANY plastic infantry model, simply because it is plastic, considering how much money goes into design, sculpting, tooling, painting, photography, packaging, and distribution is mind-boggling to me...
i can understand disliking a $36 pricetag for a single mini much easier than others who say that $3 is the max they will pay for a single plastic guy, regardless of his size, complexity, and overall badass look...

long story short, impulse buying is alive and well for me...

cheers
jah



Automatically Appended Next Post:
@TheAuldGrump: i would rather work in plastic over resin any day, unless the resin is on par with Studio Mcvey's LE's, which neither FW or Kromlech are...
i find Kromlech's models to be very ugly, but that's just me, and would not buy them at any price...

i do agree that the pure collectors are not spending enough to sustain GW's operating costs...
they need to find a happy medium, but i don't think that is possible with continuous price rises...
a lot of gamers have been put off by the costs for quite a while now, and have gone looking for alternatives...
for me, none of the cheaper alternatives appeal enough to make saving a few bucks worthwhile...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@TheAuldGrump: i would rather work in plastic over resin any day, unless the resin is on par with Studio Mcvey's LE's, which neither FW or Kromlech are...
i find Kromlech's models to be very ugly, but that's just me, and would not buy them at any price...

i do agree that the pure collectors are not spending enough to sustain GW's operating costs...
they need to find a happy medium, but i don't think that is possible with continuous price rises...
a lot of gamers have been put off by the costs for quite a while now, and have gone looking for alternatives...
for me, none of the cheaper alternatives appeal enough to make saving a few bucks worthwhile...

cheers
jah

The trick is to find things that look as good or better and have a better value for money.

I think that the Kromlech models look better than GW, while having a similar style - so getting the models for a more reasonable price is worthwhile.

And, at GW pricing, it is not much of a trick to pull off, sort of like amazing the crowd by standing on both feet....

I just do not feel that GW produces value for money - so I have dropped GW purchases completely for the last three years.

I am not spending less money - but I am getting substantially better value for money. (As an example - I think that GW plastic models look much better than Reaper Bones plastic models - but Reaper has a low enough price point that feel that it is a better value for my gaming dollar. Black Scorpion is as much as GW - but is in a decent resin, and, in my opinion, looks better than GW models. (But then I like pirates.))

It is all in perceptions - and I am not seeing GW as being a worthwhile investment at this time.

But then I do not consider Kingdom Death or Soda Pop miniatures to be worthwhile investments, either. (But look at the Red Box Kickstarters with a glad gaze.)

The collectors' market has a different perception than that of the gamers' market - but there are boutique models that I feel fill that niche better than GW.

Mierce is much more expensive than GW - but to my eye the result is worth the price, even if I am not willing to pay that price.

It is a different market - and I think that the background fluff is the only thing that gives GW a chance in the collectors' market.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* I was going to link to a particular Mierce miniature... but the Mierce website is just plain awful....

I must agree with Jah that most of the time, plastic > resin for me. There are so many things better about it:

- If I buy 10 kits over 10 years, all 10 kits will be *exactly the same*. With resin (and metal), some can be better than others.

- The fit on every kit is exactly the same. So even if there's an alignment issue on a land raider, I know that every model will have the same issue. I don't like surprises in this way.

- Alignment is generally much better anyhow. So on those big vehicles, everything just magically fits instead of having to stick pieces in hot water and fuss with it. For highly modular pieces like a Basilica where you want the finished product to line up in a perfect grid, resin would suck.

- polystyrene cement is a wonderful thing.

- Plastic is a harder material than resin, and I prefer cutting into it or filing it than resin. Very fine pieces in plastic are much more durable than very fine pieces in resin.

- Most resin pieces have the possibility of imperfections (surface bubbles, slight miscast, bent, etc) -- whereas most HIPS don't have those possibilities

On the plus side for resin, large gates and vents are much easier to clean, because of the softer material. Also, I like the finer detail afforded by some resin casts.

papa smurf is too much...
but then agian with CODEX ULTRAMARINES in 5th edition i guess geedubs had to sell some cash cow

Plastic has some wonderful benefits in many instances, but isn't always as consistent as we'd like it to be. I've had to put together dozens of plastic GW tanks, and even within the same "class" kit, (e.g. Rhinos) I've had kits that go together like butter, and others that were just slightly off enough to be incredibly frustrating. Particularly when the entire sprue is bent/warped and the memory of the plastic is wrong. The variation is *less* with plastic, but it's very definitely not nonexistent.

That said, the big issue with plastic is that it can't do certain things, particularly without requiring extra parts or simply having to be bigger. Plastics suit the "heroic" scale thing quite well, and do the very "WoW"-ish type look that GW has been driving for the last few years excellently, but for more "realistic" or simply more detailed/smaller scale stuff, it doesn't handle the smaller details and undercuts that metal and resin can do simply by the nature of the manufacture process, and for really small parts the plastic snaps where Resin will bend. Plastic forces certain design and aesthetic choices that resin/metal does not.

 Talys wrote:
I must agree with Jah that most of the time, plastic > resin for me. There are so many things better about it:

- If I buy 10 kits over 10 years, all 10 kits will be *exactly the same*. With resin (and metal), some can be better than others.

- The fit on every kit is exactly the same. So even if there's an alignment issue on a land raider, I know that every model will have the same issue. I don't like surprises in this way.

- Alignment is generally much better anyhow. So on those big vehicles, everything just magically fits instead of having to stick pieces in hot water and fuss with it. For highly modular pieces like a Basilica where you want the finished product to line up in a perfect grid, resin would suck.

- polystyrene cement is a wonderful thing.

- Plastic is a harder material than resin, and I prefer cutting into it or filing it than resin. Very fine pieces in plastic are much more durable than very fine pieces in resin.

- Most resin pieces have the possibility of imperfections (surface bubbles, slight miscast, bent, etc) -- whereas most HIPS don't have those possibilities

On the plus side for resin, large gates and vents are much easier to clean, because of the softer material. Also, I like the finer detail afforded by some resin casts.

In general I agree with you - but the amount that needs to be manufactured does take away from a collectors' market. (The folks that the 'limited editions' are aimed at.)

I actually love the old poseable plastics fro Fantasy Battle - but then they started going to the one pose wonders, for a higher price point, and lost me. (I loved the poseable plastics because I am a role player at heart - being able to make just the right miniature for a character or NPC? Loved it. Mixing and matching from assorted, but compatible models? Loved it. Being able to buy extras of the accessory sprue for Mordheim? Loved it. Having to make the same unit of dryads, identical except for head swaps? Stopped loving it.)

The problem with the HIPs kicks in with the mono-pose character models, where there is no advantage to using plastic - the Commisar will be the same Commisar, over and over and over....

But then they charge as if he were somehow a more unique model, even though they are all the same.

The Auld Grump

I fear I might be a bit late for the party, but there's some pretty good conversion projekts on youtube of people who made mek guns out of trukk parts. You can easily make 3 mek guns out of one trukk box - I made like 5 with leftover battlewagon and trukk bits.

And as a protip, tau ion cannons are solid GOLD for kitbashing your own mek gun.

Regardless, mek guns are just.....stupid expensive. I'm not sure if there's ANYTHING (forge world excluded) with a higher $ / point ratio.

 jah-joshua wrote:


it would be interesting to hear what you think qualifies as "good enough" to be a showcase model...

cheers
jah

I'm not a skink but for 28-ish mm size/scale I would say the Confrontations line before they went plastic. I think their best quality sculpts solidly started once they introduced the Devourers of Vile-Tis. I don't have an exact chronology but at least from that point on they had a consistently high quality sculpting style (for all factions, with way fewer bad examples than any other mini company) where the whole line worked even if you have more realistically proportioned humans and then some of the more comical and proportionally exaggerated goblins. Also their large scale resin stuff and the resin dragon.

But of course that's not GW aesthetics so it's probably doesn't count as being "good enough" for showcase.

sure it does, Mario...
don't think that i hold GW's minis up as the ONLY good stuff out there...
i have a few shoeboxes full of Rackham minis, just waiting for the day that i have some spare time...
i bought every book, LE, and resin collectible, as well...
i think they were some of the best Fantasy minis every made...

my thing is, i'm not trying to save money, so things like Reaper Bones don't get my money, even at a $1 a mini, because the quality is not there...
just like with GW, for quality not price issues, Finecast gets none of my money...

i don't care how much something costs, but how much it makes me want to hand over my money...

cheers
jah