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Let me know when you face off against a SM Biker list (6 Bikes + MM AB) and/or a LotD list (7 dudes). I feel like those will be more of a headache for you (and many other) lists.

Curious to see how this does. I will admit, I am getting somewhat inspired to make this list and only as a flimsy excuse to buy some FW Kakaphoni models. Seriously, would never had a reason otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I could be wrong, because I admit this may be an OLD copy of the rule for Noise Marines - but doesn't the Blastmaster say 1 per 10 models? That would mean you must have 10 dudes to get it, so there really isn't a way to get it for under 200pt.

That was corrected in an errata, I believe. You can take one in a normal squad and 2 in a squad of 10.

WobblyGoblin wrote:
That was corrected in an errata, I believe. You can take one in a normal squad and 2 in a squad of 10.

And this is why I wish I had digital versions, because keeping up with everything - especially for armies I don't play with any regularity - is daunting.

Edit:

Dammit... now I am pricing out a Noise Marine list with Kakaphoni and a Deimos Rhino and stuff... because I have a hobby addiction and painting all that purple/pink/black sounds just perfect.

 Plague Planet Lord wrote:
I read this discussion because I'm interesting about Noise Marines in Kill Team (maybe we start a campaign sooner or later)

I play also renegades of Vraks and they are terrible, I know, but why he has 30 Renegades, is not 20 bodies the maximum for Kill Team? Furthemore for have heavy support in the elite choice he needs the HQ Demagogue and in KT you can't have HQ choice................... so his list is illegal

His list -looked- legal to me when I entered it on Battlescribe. I don't have a copy of the Imperial Armour to reference. He did have it, but I didn't ask to read it since no errors popped up in Battlescribe. His list was:

Elites:
Renegade Artillery Battery - Renegade Medusa

Troops:
Renegade Infantry Platoon - Command Squad (10 Renegades w/ Lasgun), 2x Infantry Squad (10 Renegades w/ Lasgun)

It comes in at 195 with no upgrades, and when I played him he didn't point out any upgrades or use anything but the Lasguns and Medusa Cannon.

If someone with the actual IA book could email me a picture of the rule that Planet Plague Lord is referencing? I'll PM whoever my email.


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 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Let me know when you face off against a SM Biker list (6 Bikes + MM AB) and/or a LotD list (7 dudes). I feel like those will be more of a headache for you (and many other) lists.

Curious to see how this does. I will admit, I am getting somewhat inspired to make this list and only as a flimsy excuse to buy some FW Kakaphoni models. Seriously, would never had a reason otherwise.

There was one 6 Bike list at the Tournament, but he lost to the Celestial Knight Razorback player so I didn't get to play him. I played against 3 bikes and 5 Marines and it held up well, but I have yet to play dedicated bikes.

An issue I'm going to run into going forward is it looks like people are wanting to switch to Heralds of Ruin lists now. I'm trying to subtly talk the owner of the FLGS out of changing it as the rules are more complicated and the games generally take longer.

 Dark_Apostle_Spartachris wrote:

 Plague Planet Lord wrote:
I read this discussion because I'm interesting about Noise Marines in Kill Team (maybe we start a campaign sooner or later)

I play also renegades of Vraks and they are terrible, I know, but why he has 30 Renegades, is not 20 bodies the maximum for Kill Team? Furthemore for have heavy support in the elite choice he needs the HQ Demagogue and in KT you can't have HQ choice................... so his list is illegal

His list -looked- legal to me when I entered it on Battlescribe. I don't have a copy of the Imperial Armour to reference. He did have it, but I didn't ask to read it since no errors popped up in Battlescribe. His list was:

Elites:
Renegade Artillery Battery - Renegade Medusa

Troops:
Renegade Infantry Platoon - Command Squad (10 Renegades w/ Lasgun), 2x Infantry Squad (10 Renegades w/ Lasgun)

It comes in at 195 with no upgrades, and when I played him he didn't point out any upgrades or use anything but the Lasguns and Medusa Cannon.

If someone with the actual IA book could email me a picture of the rule that Planet Plague Lord is referencing? I'll PM whoever my email.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Let me know when you face off against a SM Biker list (6 Bikes + MM AB) and/or a LotD list (7 dudes). I feel like those will be more of a headache for you (and many other) lists.

Curious to see how this does. I will admit, I am getting somewhat inspired to make this list and only as a flimsy excuse to buy some FW Kakaphoni models. Seriously, would never had a reason otherwise.

There was one 6 Bike list at the Tournament, but he lost to the Celestial Knight Razorback player so I didn't get to play him. I played against 3 bikes and 5 Marines and it held up well, but I have yet to play dedicated bikes.

An issue I'm going to run into going forward is it looks like people are wanting to switch to Heralds of Ruin lists now. I'm trying to subtly talk the owner of the FLGS out of changing it as the rules are more complicated and the games generally take longer.

For that Renegade list, one of their HQ is listed as a 1+, meaning it is required. So they can't legally run a Kill Team list I think.

As for the Biker list - surprised it lost to that list. Ignore Cover MM on a speedy T5 Relentless platform seems like it should smoke a RBack in one shot. Though he may have no taken the AB, which would be a terrible idea. Then smoking dudes with Plasma and stuff. Oh well, one day I will get that list painted. I have it built, but just don't have time to paint anymore.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
For that Renegade list, one of their HQ is listed as a 1+, meaning it is required. So they can't legally run a Kill Team list I think.

As for the Biker list - surprised it lost to that list. Ignore Cover MM on a speedy T5 Relentless platform seems like it should smoke a RBack in one shot. Though he may have no taken the AB, which would be a terrible idea. Then smoking dudes with Plasma and stuff. Oh well, one day I will get that list painted. I have it built, but just don't have time to paint anymore.

Do you have a picture of the rule you could email to me? I'd love to have proof when he shows up next time lol.

As far as how the Biker army was equipped I have no idea. I know he lost by 1 point though. The Razorback dude got First Blood and killed all 3 specialists, where as the Biker couldn't kill the last Specialist. (They played during the Headhunter mission).

There you go.

Amazed he got first blood. I get that it is S9 AP2, but with terrain being what it is and Jinking, just amazed he didn't make a cover save. C'est la vie. A lot of factors in games.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
There you go.

Amazed he got first blood. I get that it is S9 AP2, but with terrain being what it is and Jinking, just amazed he didn't make a cover save. C'est la vie. A lot of factors in games.

Would the way a Kill Team detachment is set up override the need for an HQ choice?

Everything pretty much worked for the Razorback his first game, and against him when I played him lmao.

 Dark_Apostle_Spartachris wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
There you go.

Amazed he got first blood. I get that it is S9 AP2, but with terrain being what it is and Jinking, just amazed he didn't make a cover save. C'est la vie. A lot of factors in games.

Would the way a Kill Team detachment is set up override the need for an HQ choice?

Everything pretty much worked for the Razorback his first game, and against him when I played him lmao.

The modified CAD set-up precludes the ability to take an HQ. Most armies don't have a mandatory HQ though, unless they use a standard CAD which does specifically require an HQ and two Troops.

The Renegade list requires an HQ to be legal, so that it can't take one means it can't function in Kill Team. Much akin to the Harlequins not being able to take a CAD because they don't even have an HQ to meet the requirement.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

The modified CAD set-up precludes the ability to take an HQ. Most armies don't have a mandatory HQ though, unless they use a standard CAD which does specifically require an HQ and two Troops.

The Renegade list requires an HQ to be legal, so that it can't take one means it can't function in Kill Team. Much akin to the Harlequins not being able to take a CAD because they don't even have an HQ to meet the requirement.

Very interesting. I'll have to bring this up tonight.

Yes, I think R&H can't play kill team

I think you are wrong.

The "1+ Command Squad" refers to building a list with regular force organisation. Other similar markings are 0-1, no numbers or "may only be selected when...".

I don't see how you pass by these restrictions when you select your kill team from the datasheets.

Besides that, the list the guy was using is illegal. Not because he didn't have an HQ, but because can only take a Medua as Elite when using a HQ with the Ordnance Tyrant devotion, which costs 30pts and requires a HQ... see p. 238 Siege of Vraks. Without an Ordnance Tyrant, the Medusa is Heavy Support. I'd take a wild guess and say he probably built the list looking only at Battle-Scribe and not at the book.

 Stephanius wrote:
I think you are wrong.

The "1+ Command Squad" refers to building a list with regular force organisation. Other similar markings are 0-1, no numbers or "may only be selected when...".

I don't see how you pass by these restrictions when you select your kill team from the datasheets.

Besides that, the list the guy was using is illegal. Not because he didn't have an HQ, but because can only take a Medua as Elite when using a HQ with the Ordnance Tyrant devotion, which costs 30pts and requires a HQ... see p. 238 Siege of Vraks. Without an Ordnance Tyrant, the Medusa is Heavy Support. I'd take a wild guess and say he probably built the list looking only at Battle-Scribe and not at the book.

You can't ignore an army requirement when building a list. The 1+ means it has to have one and because it can't due to a slot not being present, I think it means you can't meet the basic requirement. Thus, illegal.

Just my take on it. Doubt we will get any official rulings ever.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Stephanius wrote:
I think you are wrong.

The "1+ Command Squad" refers to building a list with regular force organisation. Other similar markings are 0-1, no numbers or "may only be selected when...".

I don't see how you pass by these restrictions when you select your kill team from the datasheets.

Besides that, the list the guy was using is illegal. Not because he didn't have an HQ, but because can only take a Medua as Elite when using a HQ with the Ordnance Tyrant devotion, which costs 30pts and requires a HQ... see p. 238 Siege of Vraks. Without an Ordnance Tyrant, the Medusa is Heavy Support. I'd take a wild guess and say he probably built the list looking only at Battle-Scribe and not at the book.

You can't ignore an army requirement when building a list. The 1+ means it has to have one and because it can't due to a slot not being present, I think it means you can't meet the basic requirement. Thus, illegal.

Just my take on it. Doubt we will get any official rulings ever.

Kill Team games must follow the Kill Team Detachment. It's an actual detachment. You can only bring Elites, Troops, and Fast Attack. Because his Codex says you must field a Renegade Command Squad, which in the IA is an HQ choice pg 154) I believe his list to be illegal right there. There is nothing in the Kill Team rules that would allow you circumvent rules from your own Codex (or Imperial Armour).

Isn't that 1+ HQ requirement for CAD armies or whatever the siege of Vraks equivilent is? For instance if I was going unbound then I would ignore the 1+, right?
Therefore if you are running a Kill team detachment you follow the rules for building a kill team rather than a Renegades and Heretics detachment.

Forgive me if I misunderstand but I know of no codex which forces you to take a unit if you use the codex, mearly suggests some units to take for the benefits of a detachment.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Isn't that 1+ HQ requirement for CAD armies or whatever the siege of Vraks equivilent is? For instance if I was going unbound then I would ignore the 1+, right?
Therefore if you are running a Kill team detachment you follow the rules for building a kill team rather than a Renegades and Heretics detachment.

Forgive me if I misunderstand but I know of no codex which forces you to take a unit if you use the codex, mearly suggests some units to take for the benefits of a detachment.

From what I just read it does not look that way. The way it presents itself in the book is that it is a requirement. It doesn't differentiate between CAD's and any other Detachment, just that "This army list may be used in conjunction with any of the Force Organization charts presented in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook."

Every other HQ choice has a 0-1 before it.


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 Stephanius wrote:
I think you are wrong.

The "1+ Command Squad" refers to building a list with regular force organisation. Other similar markings are 0-1, no numbers or "may only be selected when...".

I don't see how you pass by these restrictions when you select your kill team from the datasheets.

Besides that, the list the guy was using is illegal. Not because he didn't have an HQ, but because can only take a Medua as Elite when using a HQ with the Ordnance Tyrant devotion, which costs 30pts and requires a HQ... see p. 238 Siege of Vraks. Without an Ordnance Tyrant, the Medusa is Heavy Support. I'd take a wild guess and say he probably built the list looking only at Battle-Scribe and not at the book.

Which Siege of Vraks book is that?

 Dark_Apostle_Spartachris wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Isn't that 1+ HQ requirement for CAD armies or whatever the siege of Vraks equivilent is? For instance if I was going unbound then I would ignore the 1+, right?
Therefore if you are running a Kill team detachment you follow the rules for building a kill team rather than a Renegades and Heretics detachment.

Forgive me if I misunderstand but I know of no codex which forces you to take a unit if you use the codex, mearly suggests some units to take for the benefits of a detachment.

From what I just read it does not look that way. The way it presents itself in the book is that it is a requirement. It doesn't differentiate between CAD's and any other Detachment, just that "This army list may be used in conjunction with any of the Force Organization charts presented in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook."

Every other HQ choice has a 0-1 before it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stephanius wrote:
I think you are wrong.

The "1+ Command Squad" refers to building a list with regular force organisation. Other similar markings are 0-1, no numbers or "may only be selected when...".

I don't see how you pass by these restrictions when you select your kill team from the datasheets.

Besides that, the list the guy was using is illegal. Not because he didn't have an HQ, but because can only take a Medua as Elite when using a HQ with the Ordnance Tyrant devotion, which costs 30pts and requires a HQ... see p. 238 Siege of Vraks. Without an Ordnance Tyrant, the Medusa is Heavy Support. I'd take a wild guess and say he probably built the list looking only at Battle-Scribe and not at the book.

Which Siege of Vraks book is that?

It's the current Siege of Vraks book - they re-did them in one volume.

First off, the Vraks book starts out explaining the army list, how they can ally, as what they count, special rules, special wargear, all you need to know from heading until we arrive at dataslates.
There is no written rule that postulates that Renegades have to take an HQ in all those rules and explanations. There is a very simple and logical reason why no such rule is written out':

The army list introduction calls out the following choices as force org charts:
- any BRB force org chart, i.e. CAD (1 HQ required, 1 optional), Allied (1 HQ required, no optional)
- any chart from the Vraks book, i.e. Purge (1 HQ required, 1 optional, Unending Host (1 HQ required, 1 optional).

Each force organisation chart considered for the army list therefore comes with a mandatory HQ slot, and all but the allied detachment come with optional HQ slots. A rule forcing you to field a HQ is clearly redundant.

All the 1+ and 0-1 does is force you to fill the mandatory HQ slot with a command squad, with the option to take an enforcers cadre or rogue psyker coven as optional HQs, similar to the Cerastus Knight rules, where you cannot have more Cerastus-X than you have knights of other types in a Codex IK detachment.