"Units with no Options" Why does GW think this is a good idea?

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**Pouncey**

insaniak wrote:
Pouncey wrote:

But I mean... what if part of the reason Chapterhouse won was precisely because GW designs rules with no models available, and Chapterhouse simply claimed they were filling in the gaps GW wasn't willing to?

Chapterhouse didn't 'win' the court case. There were a whole slew of infringements charged against them. Some were upheld, many more were either dismissed or dropped along the way.

They only 'won' in that more of the final rulings went in their favour than against. And that wasn't because there were no models available for those options, it was simply because GW was trying to claim ownership of stupid things like chevrons and skulls, or of artwork that they had never actually purchased ownership rights for from the original artists.

Okay then.

Like I said, I never looked into it, so I didn't know one way or the other. Thanks for letting me know. : D

GW could have simply shrugged and moved on. They could have lifted their game and started actually putting all of the options in the boxes. They could have set up a licence with a third party producer to make the options they didn't or couldn't make themselves. Instead, they chose to throw their toys out of the pram and remove anything that didn't have a model, and (to return to the original question) they think that's a good idea because it means you (theoretically) spend all of your money on their stuff instead of someone else's.

I seriously doubt that the impact this decision had on the game factored into their considerations at all.

Good point. They could've simply sold plastic conversion kits that were nothing but sprues full of weapons, held in hands, that were compatible with a wide variety of kits. There, now they do sell those options, and since making a playable army means buying more than one kit anyways, there's nothing wrong with expecting players to buy a conversion kit, especially if they price it appropriately. GW makes enough conversion kits already that doing so wouldn't be a huge strain on their resources.

**AnomanderRake**

CrownAxe wrote:
Ynneadwraith wrote:
I was under the impression that it was a snap panic judgement call immediately after the Chapterhouse lawsuit (with Dark Eldar copping the worst of it as theirs was the next codex to be released).

After Dark Eldar, have we seen similar codex releases with as stringent 'no model, no rules' applied or has it got a little better?

Ever codex released since Imperial Guard (which was before Dark Eldar) has adheared to the 'no models, no rules' ideology

The only exceptions I can think of are units that don't have official models but are easily proxied (e.g. Inquisitorial Henchmen) or units that do have official models but who don't ship with all the loadouts (e.g. Razorbacks).

That said given that official models who don't ship with all the loadouts are what companies like Chapterhouse tend to be geared towards...

**CrownAxe**

AnomanderRake wrote:
CrownAxe wrote:
Ynneadwraith wrote:
I was under the impression that it was a snap panic judgement call immediately after the Chapterhouse lawsuit (with Dark Eldar copping the worst of it as theirs was the next codex to be released).

After Dark Eldar, have we seen similar codex releases with as stringent 'no model, no rules' applied or has it got a little better?

Ever codex released since Imperial Guard (which was before Dark Eldar) has adheared to the 'no models, no rules' ideology

The only exceptions I can think of are units that don't have official models but are easily proxied (e.g. Inquisitorial Henchmen) or units that do have official models but who don't ship with all the loadouts (e.g. Razorbacks).

That said given that official models who don't ship with all the loadouts are what companies like Chapterhouse tend to be geared towards...

Some of the loadout options are legacy rules. The perfect example is the LasPlas Razorback which while isn't currently an option on the current model, it was a model option on an older version of the razorback

So model options that were once a model but aren't anymore but are an in production model get to stick around

**MrMoustaffa**

drunken0elf wrote:
Welcome to 40k. Where IG vets can use 3 melta or plasmas yet the 10 man kit only comes with one.

Tbh i don't really know what they're up too. Simplyfying new releases slowly?

Actually it comes with no plasma or meltas.

If GW restricted regular guardsmen to what we have available in the main box literally the only choices would be flamer, grenade Launcher, and vox caster.

**Wayniac**

The stupid thing is when they give you the option for 2 special weapons or multiple heavy weapons but the kit only comes with one or Worse only one weapon choice and they expect you to buy multiple boxes or a completely different box to get all the options you have. That is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion.

**Vankraken**

Wayniac wrote:
The stupid thing is when they give you the option for 2 special weapons or multiple heavy weapons but the kit only comes with one or Worse only one weapon choice and they expect you to buy multiple boxes or a completely different box to get all the options you have. That is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion.

I really hate this and its especially bad when they include a bunch of a thing but then only have 1 or no bits for other options. The Space Wolves Pack box which for a 10 man unit has two pairs of sprues where each pair has 3 plasma pistols (6 plasma pistols in total per box) and yet they didn't include melta guns or flamers which considering Space Wolves can take 2 special weapons for every 10 models in their tactical squad equivalent it seems like a huge blunder to not include any special weapons other than plasma guns (which they do include enough to get a 10 man squad 2).

In more recent releases the Scions kit basically has only 1 of each special weapon which makes arming a command squad or even a bunch of regular scions with special weapons difficult. I had to resort to using space wolf plasma guns (clipped off the wolfy bits) to give my command squad models enough weapons.

**Baldeagle91**

Vankraken wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
The stupid thing is when they give you the option for 2 special weapons or multiple heavy weapons but the kit only comes with one or Worse only one weapon choice and they expect you to buy multiple boxes or a completely different box to get all the options you have. That is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion.

I really hate this and its especially bad when they include a bunch of a thing but then only have 1 or no bits for other options. The Space Wolves Pack box which for a 10 man unit has two pairs of sprues where each pair has 3 plasma pistols (6 plasma pistols in total per box) and yet they didn't include melta guns or flamers which considering Space Wolves can take 2 special weapons for every 10 models in their tactical squad equivalent it seems like a huge blunder to not include any special weapons other than plasma guns (which they do include enough to get a 10 man squad 2).

In more recent releases the Scions kit basically has only 1 of each special weapon which makes arming a command squad or even a bunch of regular scions with special weapons difficult. I had to resort to using space wolf plasma guns (clipped off the wolfy bits) to give my command squad models enough weapons.

Space marines can buy special weapon kits (aka plasma and meltas)

**ERJAK**

MagicJuggler wrote:
Post-Chapterhouse, we've seen GW gradually move towards a design policy where armies do not get rules unless the models are already there. The most notable example of this was when Asdrubael Vect and other DE Special Characters got the axe in the 7e Codex, as well as the removal of Mycetic Spores from the 6th edition Tyranid Codex, but a more subtle grievance is also at play.

Many new kits/models that GW releases have no options or next to no options. For example, many Dark Eldar wargear restrictions are now only because the options are for certain kits. Want a Venom Blade for your Bike Arena champ? No luck! Although Genestealer Cults have an armory, other than Characters with Relics, and copypasted IG vehicles, only one unit actually has access to that armory in the first place! It's not like you're going to want a Primus with a Web Pistol or Power Pick or anything...

With Wrath of Magnus, Rubric Marine Sorcerers lost access to Force Axes and Force Swords, as the new model only got a Staff. Tzaangors are a monopose clampack with their only option being to replace a CCW with an Autopistol...when the main point of the unit is a formation to let them run and charge!

I understand protecting their IP from another Chapterhouse case, but excessive restrictions on wargear and unit loadouts are no fun, as is kitbashing. If I wanted to play a game where all my options were laid out before me, I knew all my troops carried the exact same combination of rifle/pistol/etc, that I would never see a Dreadnought with an Autocannon unless it was also carrying a hammer, etc, I would have switched to Warmachine years ago!

I'd love it if every kit had less options. Dev squads only need grav cannons and MAYBE lascannons, plasma of all shapes and sizes can just go away, pistols are stupid, swords are stupid, etc etc.

**usmcmidn**

eBay.....

**Dakka Wolf**

Vankraken wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
The stupid thing is when they give you the option for 2 special weapons or multiple heavy weapons but the kit only comes with one or Worse only one weapon choice and they expect you to buy multiple boxes or a completely different box to get all the options you have. That is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion.

I really hate this and its especially bad when they include a bunch of a thing but then only have 1 or no bits for other options. The Space Wolves Pack box which for a 10 man unit has two pairs of sprues where each pair has 3 plasma pistols (6 plasma pistols in total per box) and yet they didn't include melta guns or flamers which considering Space Wolves can take 2 special weapons for every 10 models in their tactical squad equivalent it seems like a huge blunder to not include any special weapons other than plasma guns (which they do include enough to get a 10 man squad 2).

In more recent releases the Scions kit basically has only 1 of each special weapon which makes arming a command squad or even a bunch of regular scions with special weapons difficult. I had to resort to using space wolf plasma guns (clipped off the wolfy bits) to give my command squad models enough weapons.

Don't forget the Void Claws.
Five Wolf Guard Terminators must all be armed with with Wolf Claws.
Sprue says - here, have four pairs.

**Drasius**

CSM havoks say hello, being sold as a pack with 1x missile launcher, 1x heavy bolter, 1x lascannon and 1 autocannon that everyone wishes was 4 to a pack.

Or how about the basic CSM kit that comes ith 1x plasma gun, 1x melta gun, 1x flamer, 1x heavy bolter and 2x plasma pistols.

Perhaps the CSM terminator kit that only comes with 1 combi melta and, IIRC, only 2 axes where the ideal loadout is 3x combi melta, 3x axes in a unit of 3.

Perhaps Chosen who don't even have a freakin' kit outside of the horrendous mish-mash of random upgrades that comes in the DV starter who can have 4 specials.

And yet the Thousand sons get a billion flamers that nobody of sane mind would ever use.*sigh*

**Crispy78**

Drasius wrote:
.

Perhaps the CSM terminator kit that only comes with 1 combi melta and, IIRC, only 2 axes where the ideal loadout is 3x combi melta, 3x axes in a unit of 3.

And absolutely zero lightning claws...

**Ubl1k**

usmcmidn wrote:
eBay.....

Not everyone can use Ebay so easily try living in Africa dude more often than not I dont have electricity or my postman gets eaten by a lion.

**Ruin**

Dakka Wolf wrote:
Vankraken wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
The stupid thing is when they give you the option for 2 special weapons or multiple heavy weapons but the kit only comes with one or Worse only one weapon choice and they expect you to buy multiple boxes or a completely different box to get all the options you have. That is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion.

I really hate this and its especially bad when they include a bunch of a thing but then only have 1 or no bits for other options. The Space Wolves Pack box which for a 10 man unit has two pairs of sprues where each pair has 3 plasma pistols (6 plasma pistols in total per box) and yet they didn't include melta guns or flamers which considering Space Wolves can take 2 special weapons for every 10 models in their tactical squad equivalent it seems like a huge blunder to not include any special weapons other than plasma guns (which they do include enough to get a 10 man squad 2).

In more recent releases the Scions kit basically has only 1 of each special weapon which makes arming a command squad or even a bunch of regular scions with special weapons difficult. I had to resort to using space wolf plasma guns (clipped off the wolfy bits) to give my command squad models enough weapons.

Don't forget the Void Claws.
Five Wolf Guard Terminators must all be armed with with Wolf Claws.
Sprue says - here, have four pairs.

To be fair the sprues were made when Wolf Guard could all mix and match their equipment and all be mini characters in their own right (which the PA ones can still do to an extent). Then GW standardised their equipment in Termie squads for some reason. Yeah feth that guy whomever decided that. Now I've got loads of WGT with illegal equipment.

**corpuschain**

I think it's a terrible idea to get rid of units that don't have models. It's a kick in the teeth to the experienced gamer and modeller. Just look around the dakka fora to see how many people love making models for things in the 40k universe that aren't in GW's range. I love the challenge of creating a kitbash for a unit that's got rules but no model!

Worse than this is removing things from the codex that did have a model but which is now OOP, such as Marbo, Doomrider etc. A codex isn't a miniatures catalogue (look how cool this is! Now buy the model!). It should give rules so people can field the models they have.

**EnTyme**

Ubl1k wrote:
usmcmidn wrote:
eBay.....

Not everyone can use Ebay so easily try living in Africa dude more often than not I dont have electricity or my postman gets eaten by a lion.

Africa: It's like Australia on Hard Mode.

**Wayniac**

corpuschain wrote:
I think it's a terrible idea to get rid of units that don't have models. It's a kick in the teeth to the experienced gamer and modeller. Just look around the dakka fora to see how many people love making models for things in the 40k universe that aren't in GW's range. I love the challenge of creating a kitbash for a unit that's got rules but no model!

Worse than this is removing things from the codex that did have a model but which is now OOP, such as Marbo, Doomrider etc. A codex isn't a miniatures catalogue (look how cool this is! Now buy the model!). It should give rules so people can field the models they have.

GW doesn't care about "the experienced gamer and modeler" though. They want you to buy one of their kits, preferably 2+ to get all the options you want.

**SagesStone**

EnTyme wrote:
Ubl1k wrote:
usmcmidn wrote:
eBay.....

Not everyone can use Ebay so easily try living in Africa dude more often than not I dont have electricity or my postman gets eaten by a lion.

Africa: It's like Australia on Hard Mode.

Say it's about even, they have warlords while we have poison.

**nareik**

Pretty sure Africa got giant dinobirds, crocs and poison too :p

Source: my dad's cousin used to live in Africa (until he was killed by his farm hands).

**Anpu-adom**

To answer the main question, it makes sense for some armies to have units that don't have options. Necron Warriors, for example. You can't change their gun, you can upgrade a sergeant. The only option is to add a vehicle. Similarly, scarabs have no upgrade, but it makes sense for them not to have upgrades! Robots meant for a single task with attacks that are general purpose. These are great units to use when you are learning the game. Similarly, most Ork and Eldar units have relatively simple builds that are good for beginners.
A space marine tac squad, on the other hand, can be an incredibly nuanced to build. There are way, way too many options for most beginners... I've been playing for 6 years now and I'm still lost with Space Marines.

**MagicJuggler**

Orks should have more options than most though. They're the opposite definition of standard-issue. For example, they release a whole new range of Mek Gunz...yet offer no means to include said shiny Mek Gunz on a Battlewagon. Or they release a new Morkanaut kit...and the only Mek Gun it has is the Mega-Kannon.

Dark Eldar have similar odd restrictions, especially limiting availability to Venom Blades, only allowing the Solarite to take a Power Lance, etc. Same with the inability to get Deathwatch HQs on Bikes, or the inability to take any real wargear options for the Watchmaster, etc.