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So, had my first game with CSM. It was against another CSM list. I am not a fan of mirror matches but I think there were some interesting tidbits. My list was as follows:

Lord Discordant, SL
2 x Venom Crawlers, SL
Master of Possession, UN
10 x Possessed, UN
4 x Obliterates, TZ
Dark Commune, TZ
20 x cultists with GL/HS x2, TZ
Lord with Accursed Weapons, KH
10 x Chosen, KH
Landradier, TZ
10 x Traitor Guard with ML, PL, and FL, TZ

I don't see anything in the rules that prevents a unit from being transported by a unit with a different mark (please point it out if that is not correct, although I am going to post in rules area too). So chosen and lord were in the LR, and the obliterators and the cultists were in reserve.

He had 3 hellbrutes, two havocs, Abadon and 10 terminators, some warpsmiths, 4 obliterators and a predator with a plasma turret.

I went first. It was a really lethal battle, but overall I won because his army was more of a gun line, and I secured the middle objectives early and just scored a bunch of points on primary. Personally I have seen this weakness for IG gun lines as well, if you can survive and take objectives, then they are pretty much screwed as they won't be able to catch you on the primary.

Thoughts on the Dark Pacts:
I like the mechanic, although I can see how swing-y it is. The [Lethal Hits]/[Sustain Hits1] really do add up though, especially with the triggering on a 5+. My opponent pointed out (I missed this) that the wording of the marks rule says if you pick that ability from the dark pact, "critical hits are scored on a 5+". There is no limiting language to only the ability selected. This normally doesn't matter, but some weapons, like heavy bolters, have [Sustained Hits 1] built it. Or more importantly, hellbrutes handing out both abilities. Due to the wording, if you are say Tzeentch and select [Lethal Hits], you now score criticals on 5+, so if you have a hellbrute near by giving [Sustained Hits 1] as well, you will trigger BOTH rules on a 5+. I don't see any RAW reason that would defeat that premise. If so that makes hellbrutes really really really good, especially with shooting armies. His four LC havocs with both sustained and lethal on 5+ were pretty brutal.

Thoughts on my units:

Lord Discordant, SL- This guys is way overpriced when you compare him to a daemon prince. His attacks are far less powerful, and he has basically the same defensive stats, plus no fly. His abilities are cute, but the one that stops enemy shooting is so short ranged and so easy for the opponent to avoid that it might as well not exist, and only affects vehicles. The re-rolls to wound, again are to short of a range, only works on vehicles, and again might as well not exist. I love the model so I am going to keep playing him, but without a major points cut (like to 190 like a DP) he is no where near competitive, and even at that point cost would still not compete well with the DP.

2 x Venom Crawlers, SL- These guys were pretty cool. Their shooting attacks can do some damage, especially with sustained hits. They are a bit easy to kill however, but that might have just been a function of how much AT my opponent had. Did not get to see them in CC. Next time I think I am going to focus on making them nurgle or tzeentch for the advantage in the shooting as opposed to CC.

Master of Possession, UN leading 10 x Possessed, UN- Holly broken of brokenness batman. First the MoP is really good all rounder with the +1 advance/charge, plust 6+++. I think he is a must take on a unit if you have a unit to attach him to, and you should because you should have possessed. With mark of undivided and the strat to re-roll hits and wounds, their damage output is bonkers. They killed two hellburtes, two warpsmiths, and a unit of havocs. They are so fast. They are also pretty hard to kill with anything that is not d3 and multi-shot. They are pricey, and I can see some matchups where they won't be as good, if the opponent has the rights tools to deal with them, but if they get into the lines, forget about it. These will probably be in every list I make.

4 x Obliterates, TZ- I was really excited about this unit, but it was kind of a let down. It is very expensive, so starting off the board and losing a round of shooting is not great. Also once they arrive they are not going anywhere with only a 4 inch move. I did not even get to use their trick to regenerate as they appeared, took an objective for two turns, then were promptly eviscerated by Abaddon. The shooting seemed good with auto wounds, but I think 4 is to many eggs in one basket. I am going to try two next time.

Dark Commune, TZ leading 20 x cultists with GL/HS x2, TZ- This is another unit I was excited to try. I put them in reserve so they could appear on a flank. The DC ability to give +1 to hit and wound for a turn is helpful, as is the lethal hits. Due to the possessed sweeping a flank clear, their only target was the predator. So, I shot at it full boat (the GLs finshed off a weak vehicle) and with the +1 to hit and wound and the lethal on 5+ scored like 14 wounds. However he passed all but 2 saves. I think there is potential for their shooting, but against 2+ or 3+, it is going to require the opponent to get unlucky on the saves. However, the 5++ the DC grants is great as it really makes this unit hard to remove with anything that is not just a carp ton of shots. I am definitely going to use them again.


Lord with Accursed Weapons, KH leading 10 x Chosen, KH- So these guys got the first charge out of the landraider into Abaddon's unit and killed a few terminators, then promptly got smashed by Abbadon. The lord did not seem to be worth it at all as he does not have a great CC weapon option. This unit put out a whole lot of attacks and I can see it being better against a lot of targets, but not sure yet if it is worth the points.

Landradier, TZ- I like landraiders as they are pretty tough, and with CSM (as opposed to my TS) they can really benefit from the [lethal hits]. Again my opponent had a lot of AT, so he did take this down in like turn 2, but I did fail a bunch of 4+ saves, so I think I was a bit unlucky. I might try a Rhino to deliver the Chosen, but not sure what to take with the rest of the points, probably need more AT.

Tratior Guard, TZ- they sat on a back objective and scored points. Pretty much what they are for.

Overall I like CSM, looking forward to my next game.


\

Correct on 5+ thing.

Yea someone else agreed in the rules form. I mean that makes a hellbrute an auto take in any gun line type list in my opinion

 xeen wrote:
Yea someone else agreed in the rules form. I mean that makes a hellbrute an auto take in any gun line type list in my opinion

100%

I have contemplated bringing two forgefiends & a helbrute, they *just* squeeze into the allowable reserve limit. Imaging bringing them out on a table edge within 36" to erase whatever it is you need erased.

Kangarupe wrote:

 xeen wrote:
Yea someone else agreed in the rules form. I mean that makes a hellbrute an auto take in any gun line type list in my opinion

100%

I have contemplated bringing two forgefiends & a helbrute, they *just* squeeze into the allowable reserve limit. Imaging bringing them out on a table edge within 36" to erase whatever it is you need erased.

Yea that would be a very good tactic as you would not be losing the [Devastating Wounds] with the lethal hits as you would also be getting [Sustained Hits 1] on 5's as well. I have been thinking of getting some forgefiends (I can't actually believe I don't have any as I have been playing since 2nd) as they are really good for CSM and also pretty good for TS


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just bought on on ebay right now

 xeen wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:

 xeen wrote:
Yea someone else agreed in the rules form. I mean that makes a hellbrute an auto take in any gun line type list in my opinion

100%

I have contemplated bringing two forgefiends & a helbrute, they *just* squeeze into the allowable reserve limit. Imaging bringing them out on a table edge within 36" to erase whatever it is you need erased.

Yea that would be a very good tactic as you would not be losing the [Devastating Wounds] with the lethal hits as you would also be getting [Sustained Hits 1] on 5's as well. I have been thinking of getting some forgefiends (I can't actually believe I don't have any as I have been playing since 2nd) as they are really good for CSM and also pretty good for TS

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just bought on on ebay right now

Absolutley! Their only downside is the potential self destruction. With 3 ectoplasma cannons, you're taking 3 hazardous rolls if you avail yourself of their specialty devastating wounds ability...flat 3 damage PER fail for a vehicle

42% chance of at least one roll of 1
17% chance of 1s on any of the dice
28% chance of failing dark pacts roll (excluding any Abaddon re-roll leaderships & dark pact Warmaster aura...which you almost certainly wouldn't be doing because you'd be silly not to give them re-roll hits aura instead)

Like I said though, those cannons are pretty vicious, you'd only run hazardous if you're *really* trying to destroy something super tough.

Won a game against Tau over the weekend. We used the newer terrain rules which hurt us both (me moreso because I took Predators and a Vindicator). The Cultists definitely carried that game:

-my opponent mostly took Stealth Suits, Ghostkeels, and Pathfinders, and focused mostly on my vehicles

-I was able to bait my opponent's deployment with the Cultists, and managed to remove half of his Turn 1 shooting with the Dark Obscuration strategem on my Mark of Nurgle Vindicator. This stratagem also helped the vehicles (and even some cultists) later in the game

-I took five units of Mark of Tzeentch Cultists, so there were too many bodies for the Tau player to deal with, and the Vehicles were too durable for him to take out.

-The chip damage of the Mark of Tzeentch Cultists really helped to whittle down the enemy enough for the Vehicles to finish off and vice-versa.

Another CSM player next to me with a far more competitive list (3x2 Obliterators, 3 Venomcrawlers, 10 Possessed, 10 Warp Talons, Maulerfiend, and other stuff I don't remember) got beat down hard against Orks, but both were singing praises of the Warp Talons, so that’s what I'll make and try out next, especially since I have what I think to be an awesome model idea for them that doesn't use any CSM models or bits.

Dark Obscuration on the heavy hitting long range units is a real headache for your opponent… I’ve used it with great effectiveness in many of my games.

I’ve also found it to be a doozy on transports to get your boys up field a little more safely. Chosen go *squish*

So I had a game against Chaos daemons, Slannesh, and some allied wardogs. His list was 6 units of daemonettes with assorted characters leading them, a soulgrinder, three wardogs, a chariot, and the mask.

My list was as follows:
Master of possession leading
10 x possessed undivided
5 x warp talons slan
Dark Commune leading
20 x cultist mob Tz
4 x obliterates Tz
10 x traitor guardsmen Tz
Forgefiend undiv
warpsmith undiv
Daemon prince with wings sl (WL with enhancment)
Lord Discordant
2 x venom crawlers Nu

I ended up winning by 5 points but it came right down to the wire as he scored a lot early, but I was able to dominate the primaries late.

Thoughts on Units:
Master of possession leading 10 x possessed undivided- Once again this unit proves how unbelievably broken [devastating wounds] is. They marched up the middle and just dominated taking out several units and characters. The undivided re-roll everything is bonkers. They are also pretty resilant with 3 wounds each, and the 6+++ from the MoP. I think this unit is a must take and if I was going competitive I would bring two or three of these.

5 x warp talons slan- I made a mistake with these guys and charged a unit with fight first and they got butchered on turn 1. So I did not get a really good bead on these guys. They are fast and so can cover objectives quickly, but they may be a bit over priced for that.

Dark Commune leading 20 x cultist mob Tz- I am really liking this unit. All told it is 165 points and it definitely one me this game. I put it in reserve then appear on a flank near an objective (most games have at least one objective close to a flank), and pop their once per game ability on the turn they arrive. They are not a really deadly unit, but they can put out some damage with the [lethal hits] on 5+, but more importantly they are good at taking an objective, then it is sticky so they can move forward and use the large foot print to block the objective if necessary. with the 5++ from the dark commune they are hard to chew through with all but the most massed blast shooting. I highly recommend trying this unit out.

4 x obliterates Tz- They are did some damage this game killing a wardog, then taking an objective, but I still think they are just to expensive for what they do. And it really sucks because I think 4 is to many, and 2 is not enough and we can't take 3. I think I am going to try a unit of two, or may two units of two. I am not sure what to do with these guys.

10 x traitor guardsmen Tz- they sat in the back, held the home objective then promptly died when charged. The 5+ [lethal hits] was helpful, but these guys are ok, but I probably won't use them next battle as now I have the forgefined in the back to hole the rear objective.

Forgefiend undiv near warpsmith undiv- I am putting these guys together as they basically operated as one unit with the warpsmith healing and giving +1 to hit to the forgefiend. This thing is really good, and if I was going full competitive I would bring three. Again the [devastating wounds] is ridiculous, especially with the full re-rolls. I will say though he did a crap ton of damage to himself with hazardous and the dark pact failures, but the healing helped. Also my opponent focus fire more on the other vehicles, so did not get a good sense of his durability, but I don't think it is going to be all that good.

Daemon prince with wings sl- He had the 5+++ enhancment, so was really hard to kill. I really like this unit, it is really fast (14' move with SL) and hits really hard with his mortal wound charge and then the 5+ [sustained hits]. I will say he will probably struggle against high T and high Sv units, but that is what the obliterators and forgefiend is for.

Lord Discordant- Once again this guy is to many points for what he does. He just does not have enough attacks with his main weapon. The winged daemon prince is better in every way and is like 30 points cheaper. This is my favorite model in the game so I will probably keep running him, but he needs a price cut or some more attacks.

2 x venom crawlers Nu- These guys are pretty solid. Not meta rocking but kind of like a small unit of troops, ok damage, ok survival, ok price. The hellbrute is probably better for about the same price due to his special rule, but I think these guys have a place after you build your main block of units. They are pretty fast so can get in the enemy lines quickly and that kind of takes the pressure off other units as these guys need to be dealt with.

Hope this was helpful.

 xeen wrote:
So I had a game against Chaos daemons, Slannesh, and some allied wardogs. His list was 6 units of daemonettes with assorted characters leading them, a soulgrinder, three wardogs, a chariot, and the mask.

Really interesting run down. There's no doubt that the possessed rock and that they're super tough, and with the MoP it gets even better. However, I play a lot of shooty opponents and even with their toughness, I find the possessed to be targets of high interest to my opponents. Even with advance and charge it can be tricky getting them up the field unmolested. Tack on oaths of moments from marines, and the quantity of blast weapons right now...I just don't know. Even worse, how much overwatch people seem to be doing not that you don't have to be charged to pop it off. Further play will be required. Against a daemon list though, they're definitely savage.

I think I've decided the warpsmith isn't quite worth it...healing up to D3 just isn't sufficient with the amount of self harm the forgefiend can do (as you've pointed out). I feel like they must just be better to run solo. Then once the fiend is dead you've got a fairly useless character sitting out in the lurch who has lost his lone operative and you KNOW they're going to try and kill the fiend.

20x cultists mob led by commune, this is interesting! What made you want to roll with them over the accursed cultists. I find them to be so goddamn tough to erase, it pleases me greatly .

Kangarupe wrote:

 xeen wrote:
So I had a game against Chaos daemons, Slannesh, and some allied wardogs. His list was 6 units of daemonettes with assorted characters leading them, a soulgrinder, three wardogs, a chariot, and the mask.

Really interesting run down. There's no doubt that the possessed rock and that they're super tough, and with the MoP it gets even better. However, I play a lot of shooty opponents and even with their toughness, I find the possessed to be targets of high interest to my opponents. Even with advance and charge it can be tricky getting them up the field unmolested. Tack on oaths of moments from marines, and the quantity of blast weapons right now...I just don't know. Even worse, how much overwatch people seem to be doing not that you don't have to be charged to pop it off. Further play will be required. Against a daemon list though, they're definitely savage.

I think I've decided the warpsmith isn't quite worth it...healing up to D3 just isn't sufficient with the amount of self harm the forgefiend can do (as you've pointed out). I feel like they must just be better to run solo. Then once the fiend is dead you've got a fairly useless character sitting out in the lurch who has lost his lone operative and you KNOW they're going to try and kill the fiend.

20x cultists mob led by commune, this is interesting! What made you want to roll with them over the accursed cultists. I find them to be so goddamn tough to erase, it pleases me greatly .

Yea I could see if your opponent had a lot of D3 shooting coming your way that could hurt them. Competitively I would take two units, and quite frankly, even reduced to 5 models they are still pretty deadly. You can always use the strat to give them stealth as well, and since they are infantry you can hide them in ruins as well.

I agree, I only use the warpsmith because I needed to fill the points, and I only own one forgefiend anyway. Running three would definitely be the way to go.

I used the regular cultists because quit frankly I have a lot of them and I don't have any accursed cultists. I think the accursed cultists with the dark commune would be good, but the dark commune really does a lot for the regular cultists. Using the guns they can do some damage without having to rely on a 9 inch charge as well when they arrive on the flank. They make a great flanking unit because of their low cost, so you are not leaving points off the board doing nothing, i.e. Oblitorators. I suggest giving it a try (I assume everyone who plays CSM has at least 20 cultists with auto guns lol)

I'm curious how everyone has been marking their various units. Most of my collection has a World Eaters focus so most of my units are marked for Khorne.

I've been using Chaos Undivided with my Forgefiend to get the most out of Profane Zeal. For backfield objective holders Nurgle and Dark Obscuration are hard to pass up.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
I'm curious how everyone has been marking their various units. Most of my collection has a World Eaters focus so most of my units are marked for Khorne.

I've been using Chaos Undivided with my Forgefiend to get the most out of Profane Zeal. For backfield objective holders Nurgle and Dark Obscuration are hard to pass up.

Pretty much everything I have get's Nurgle, with a select unit or two getting Undivided (like the Forgefiend you mentioned.) I also run Huron in a squad of chosen, he's Undivided so they have to be too, despite my desire for them to be Khorne. The Dark Ob Strat gets used pretty much exclusively for Abaddon and his 10x terminators so the Nurgle mark everywhere else is mostly just so I can get Sustained 1s.

I like the thought of Tzeentch on Obliterators to shower the enemy in auto wounding Warp Hail shots and use the Skinshift strat, but I see a lot of people also running Nurgle on them...presumably for potential sustains on their very savage high damage profile weapons.

And the "can"t shoot from afar nyah nyah" stratagem.

Nurgle and Undivided (and Abaddon's why not all five) seem the stand outs. The obvious solution in past editions would be to lower the points costs of the other three options...

I'm liking the chip damage from Tzeench Cultists, as it allows them to do more than just be cheap bodies for objectives.

Otherwise yeah, Nurgle all the way.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
I'm curious how everyone has been marking their various units. Most of my collection has a World Eaters focus so most of my units are marked for Khorne.

I've been using Chaos Undivided with my Forgefiend to get the most out of Profane Zeal. For backfield objective holders Nurgle and Dark Obscuration are hard to pass up.

I run Possessed units in my list... usually 2x 5 man marked as Khorne and 1x 10man Undivided. I reserve the Profane Zeal strat on my 10man Possessed unit.

I bring 3 Forgefiends too, but mark my 1x Hadescannon as Tzeentch and my 2x Ectoplasma units as Nurgle. (These units are target numero uno for Wraithknight meta, so I need the "nuh uh" nurgle strat).

I went 4 and 2 in my last GT and my MVPs are almost always my Khorne Possessed units, as the sheer numbers of lethal hits can overwhelm units. These guys even "out melee'ed" a big Custodes melee unit.

Kangarupe wrote:
Pretty much everything I have get's Nurgle, with a select unit or two getting Undivided (like the Forgefiend you mentioned.) I also run Huron in a squad of chosen, he's Undivided so they have to be too, despite my desire for them to be Khorne. The Dark Ob Strat gets used pretty much exclusively for Abaddon and his 10x terminators so the Nurgle mark everywhere else is mostly just so I can get Sustained 1s.

I like the thought of Tzeentch on Obliterators to shower the enemy in auto wounding Warp Hail shots and use the Skinshift strat, but I see a lot of people also running Nurgle on them...presumably for potential sustains on their very savage high damage profile weapons.

Interesting, I'm surprised to hear Nurgle is so favored. I suppose Sustained Hits is very valuable on a lot of units in our index.

How are you kitting out your Chosen? I've only run Legionnaires so far and I've opted for volume of attacks with chainswords and Khorne marks thus far.

Arcanis161 wrote:I'm liking the chip damage from Tzeench Cultists, as it allows them to do more than just be cheap bodies for objectives.

Otherwise yeah, Nurgle all the way.

I'm really looking forward to trying a squad of Tzeentch Havocs with reaper chaincannons.

EightFoldPath wrote:Nurgle and Undivided (and Abaddon's why not all five) seem the stand outs. The obvious solution in past editions would be to lower the points costs of the other three options...

The Strats for Nurgle and Undivided are extremely good, but I find the Lethal Hits for Khorne and Tzeentch to be very useful, especially with how common and cheap high Toughness targets are. It's a nice bit of flexibility where S12+ weapons aren't a must have if you have units that can rock out tons of lethal hits.

whembly wrote:
I run Possessed units in my list... usually 2x 5 man marked as Khorne and 1x 10man Undivided. I reserve the Profane Zeal strat on my 10man Possessed unit.

I bring 3 Forgefiends too, but mark my 1x Hadescannon as Tzeentch and my 2x Ectoplasma units as Nurgle. (These units are target numero uno for Wraithknight meta, so I need the "nuh uh" nurgle strat).

I went 4 and 2 in my last GT and my MVPs are almost always my Khorne Possessed units, as the sheer numbers of lethal hits can overwhelm units. These guys even "out melee'ed" a big Custodes melee unit.

Are you also running Accursed Cultists? I was considering using those and possessed in a different army I'm building led by a Dark Commune and Master of Possession respectively.

Sorry to hear your meta is still Wraithknight heavy, I was hoping after the points bump and fate dice nerf they would be less oppressive. With 3 Forge Fiends what are you thoughts on having a shooty Hellbrute babysitting them with the aura?

Nice work on out-melee'ing the Custodes!

 The Red Hobbit wrote:


How are you kitting out your Chosen?

Undivided to run with Huron, 8x accursed weapons, 10x boltguns, 4x plasma pistols, 2x power fists

I got trucked by a Necron list last night though.... I'm taking Huron and his ability out and throwing a chaos lord in their now and putting either Khorne or Nurgle on the whole unit, probably Khorne for close combat loveliness?

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

whembly wrote:
I run Possessed units in my list... usually 2x 5 man marked as Khorne and 1x 10man Undivided. I reserve the Profane Zeal strat on my 10man Possessed unit.

I bring 3 Forgefiends too, but mark my 1x Hadescannon as Tzeentch and my 2x Ectoplasma units as Nurgle. (These units are target numero uno for Wraithknight meta, so I need the "nuh uh" nurgle strat).

I went 4 and 2 in my last GT and my MVPs are almost always my Khorne Possessed units, as the sheer numbers of lethal hits can overwhelm units. These guys even "out melee'ed" a big Custodes melee unit.

Are you also running Accursed Cultists? I was considering using those and possessed in a different army I'm building led by a Dark Commune and Master of Possession respectively.

Yup! In my GT list, I brought 6 five man noise marines. While I love those units, I wanna try cultist, accursed and rhinos for the cultist with my possessed. Its my next list.

Sorry to hear your meta is still Wraithknight heavy, I was hoping after the points bump and fate dice nerf they would be less oppressive.

If I get 1st turn, I have a fighting chance bringing it down with 3 forgefiends.

With 3 Forge Fiends what are you thoughts on having a shooty Hellbrute babysitting them with the aura?

I do bring 2 helbrutes in my list to buff my forgefiends! Worth it!

Nice work on out-melee'ing the Custodes!

Yeah, that was fun. I had to charge is big melee brick with 2x 5-man possessed units. He had the fight first ability and he thought he could destroy one unit and tank the other, so he allocated all hits to one of the units. That unit died, but I popped that fight on death strat, and ending up 8 models attacking with 32 dice. I had enormous lethal hits that nearly wiped the unit out (he had 3 models left). Possessed, again, has been my MVP unit in every game. That's because the Forgefiends takes so much attention initially, and folks are surprised how fast these units are.

My buddy wants to start an Emperor’s Children army. I was wondering what units in the Chaos index would be worth considering if you weren’t going to use Abaddon and probably only Mark of Slaanesh.

We looked at a lot of the stuff (lesser/greater demons of Slaanesh, Lucius, noise marines, cultists, oblits, possessed, etc. but I was wondering first off if there are any powerful options worth starting with. I know Abaddon is great, but outside of an undivided Black Legion force, what kind of good combos are there?

Iggy88 wrote:
My buddy wants to start an Emperor’s Children army. I was wondering what units in the Chaos index would be worth considering if you weren’t going to use Abaddon and probably only Mark of Slaanesh.

There is very likely to be an Emperors Children codex near the end of this edition, which will have:
- New Noise Marines with a new weapon that you can't use a blast master to proxy. (To be fair they should be a very nice model kit).
- New Juicesecrators (the first rule of Juicesecrators is do not ask about where the juice comes from) which will be big 50mm base daemon marine hybrids that are the best thing in the book (until 11th when they will mysteriously suck).
- Half of the current CSM kits will be cut from the codex. At random by throwing darts at a board at GW HQ. Even if they feel like they should fit in with the EC aesthetic.

So I would suggest your friend either build now in the full knowledge a few $100s worth of their plastic will become obsolete or wait a few years.

Collecting Slaanesh daemons only for now would make some sense, especially if the buddy enjoys the modelling and painting part as they can just focus on a slow build up.

He’s probably going to get 3d printed models for cheap, rather than going with GW minis.

But good to know about the likely changes.

I believe he’s looking at some noise marines with guitars, some generic daemonette knock offs, something to act as a keeper of secrets, and something to act as a demon prince of Slaanesh.

He’s looking for something to play in 10th. Not sure if he’s willing to wait until the end of 10th. His wych cult drukhari army got nerfed really hard and now he’s looking for something similar but tougher. He was starting a Space Wolves army, but now changed his mind and thinks Emperor’s Children will let him have a fast melee army like his wych cult, coupled with tougher, shootier units like marines.

But, I suppose it would be good to consider the possibility of him spending money on an army that’s going to be redesigned in a couple years. None of the other cult legions changed into anything unexpected though, so I imagine Emperor’s Children will get a codex that is mostly what you’d expect?

Kangarupe wrote:
I got trucked by a Necron list last night though.... I'm taking Huron and his ability out and throwing a chaos lord in their now and putting either Khorne or Nurgle on the whole unit, probably Khorne for close combat loveliness?

Is there a particular strat you plan on using for the Chaos Lord inclusion?

whembly wrote:
Yup! In my GT list, I brought 6 five man noise marines. While I love those units, I wanna try cultist, accursed and rhinos for the cultist with my possessed. Its my next list.

I keep forgetting we can put non-marines in a rhino. Now I'm considering 12 Negavolt Cultists in a Rhino.

I do bring 2 helbrutes in my list to buff my forgefiends! Worth it!

Interesting, do you have your backfield ordinance on only 2 objectives? For some reason I was imagining 3 forgefiends and a hellbrute on a single objective with good visibility.

Yeah, that was fun. I had to charge is big melee brick with 2x 5-man possessed units. He had the fight first ability and he thought he could destroy one unit and tank the other, so he allocated all hits to one of the units. That unit died, but I popped that fight on death strat, and ending up 8 models attacking with 32 dice. I had enormous lethal hits that nearly wiped the unit out (he had 3 models left). Possessed, again, has been my MVP unit in every game. That's because the Forgefiends takes so much attention initially, and folks are surprised how fast these units are.

Yeah the fight on death strat is great for large blobs. I think Forgefiends are the current boogieman but overtime people will realize just how strong possessed are. Especially with a MoP leading them.

EightFoldPath wrote:
- Half of the current CSM kits will be cut from the codex. At random by throwing darts at a board at GW HQ. Even if they feel like they should fit in with the EC aesthetic.

While I'm still salty about my pre-9th WE army being completely invalidated I think the part that bugs me the most is losing Exalted Champions as an HQ unit.

Yeah… the strat for the chaos lord is tricky. You want to go Nurgle to get a second freebie dark obscuration. But a *really* savvy opponent would target the Lord unit first making you burn through the Nurgle strat and thus not able to use it where you really want (Abby and terminators for me!) …ergo you wouldn’t pop it at all when targeted and go with something else. Khorne fight on death is great, tzeentch skinshift also good, but probably the AOC one is best? My lord leads a chosen unit in my list and they’re fairly squishy @ T4 and no natural invulnerable or feel no pain :/

So two weekends ago I had a game against Nids. He had a bunch of little bugs, a big squad of Carnifexs with old one eye, some other big bugs and some of the brain bugs.

The game went down to the wire, I won by 5 points due to his inability to kill my cultists to take them off the objective at the end. Here are my thoughts on units

My list was as follows:
Master of possession leading
10 x possessed undivided
5 x warp talons slan
Dark Commune leading
20 x cultist mob Tz
4 x obliterates Tz
10 x traitor guardsmen Tz
Forgefiend undiv
warpsmith undiv
Daemon prince with wings sl (WL with enhancment)
Lord Discordant
2 x venom crawlers Nu

Master of possession leading 10 x possessed undivided- This is the first game that they got punked. I was a bit two aggressive with them in the open, and then they failed a 7" charge with re-roll and were stuck out. They were then blasted by the brain bugs. What was left was finished by the Carnifexs which was their target. As someone said they do melt to D3 weapons pretty badly even with the 6+++. They were completely wasted this game.

Daemon prince with wings sl (WL with enhancment)- I made a huge error with this guy and charged into the Carnifexs unsupported. He did not even kill one of them. I do still like him, but he will struggle against high T and good armor units. I knew this but he was going to be in with the possessed, who failed their charge. His speed makes him a threat, but I think he needs to more bully units that can't really do melee or are not high T, rather than be a straight fighter against the opponents best units.

Lord Discordant - Wow this guy is just so bad. He needs like a 50 point price cut. His CC is worse than the DP for the most part, with the same T, W, Sv, and a lower invulnerable. It sucks because he is my favorite model, but he is getting the sideline for the next match.

5 x warp talons slan - these guys did a much better job this game. They harassed one flank, drew some shots from units due to their speed, and are petty kill-y against infantry. I think if you are looking for a small flank unit, maybe for actions and harassment, they can work.

2 x venom crawlers Nu- So lets start with that I think these guys are pretty solid mid-level all purpose vehicle. They have good number of shots, are decent tough, decent CC, pretty fast. However, this is all true with me using only half of their shooting attacks as I mis-read the card and though they only have 6 shots, not 12. With 12 shots I think these guys are maybe are worth considering for more competitive purposes. I can't wait to use them properly in my next game.

Forgefiend undiv with warpsmith undiv- yea forgefiend is great as everyone knows. The warpsmith is not really necessary and is coming out in my next list.

4 x obliterates Tz- they dropped in and killed most of the Carnifexs and then blocked the Carnifexs and fought them in CC. I like them with Tz as I was able to resurrect two of them over the court of the game, and [Lethal Hits] on 5+ was helpful with their big shots. I still think that 4 is to many and 2 is not enough though.

10 x traitor guardsmen Tz- One of his big bugs used Rapid Ingress to arrive 3" away from them and my back objective. However I got really lucky and the melta auto wounded, then he failed his save and I did 7 damage. I did 2 more with plasma then 2 more with just the laser rifles (5+ [Lethal Hits] baby) which put it down to only 3 wounds remaining, which I was able to finish off by firing only one cannon from the forgefiend, which could then fire the other cannons at other targets. Having the special weapons is nice for these guys. They are not going to be in a competitive list, but I think they are fun and decent in more fun lists maybe even like semi-competitive league games.

finally,

Dark Commune leading 20 x cultist mob Tz- I love this unit. I really think you could make a case to put it in Tournament style lists. I always bring it out of strategic reserve near one of the side objectives and use the special +1 hit/+1 wound ability when they arrive. They won me this game by grabbing the side objective and actually killing stuff. They killed a weakened 14 man termagunt squad, and finished off the brain bugs after they got hosed by the forgefiend. Quite frankly, anything that does not have a 2+ save they can do some damage to and anything that is like 4+ or 5+ they can really hurt. They have 32 shots in rapid fire range, 14 more heavy stubber shots, then two grenade lunchers, then the one psyker power all with [Lethal Hits] on a 5+. Then with the 5++ from the dark commune they can be a pain in the butt to clear without some major blast weapons. The whole set up is only 165 points. I still think the accursed cultists might be better (I don't own any so can't play them myself) but one of those and one of these coming in from reserve might be the way to go.

Hope this was helpful.

Great analysis of your battle, I've been considering a Brazen Beasts style list with some similar units so it's great to read your perspective.

Too bad for the Discolord, it's a great model and I was considering mine for the warlord for a daemon engine heavy list but he seems very poor for his points cost. I was actually considering a DP with Wings instead but based on your report it seems they are more fragile than I'd care for.

How are you running your Warp Talons? Rapid Ingress or something else? I've got 10 of them lying around I haven't used since 8th and I'd love to give them a purpose again.

For Traitor Guardsmen I had been using them with the Nurgle Mark in 1000pt games otherwise they kept getting blown off my backfield objective. I hadn't considered Tzeentch and the fact that 5+ Lethal Hits would work on Overwatch. I'm guessing you went with 2x Plasma and a Melta? I was doing 2x Snipers and a Plasma for mine, the Sniper Rifles are very potent this edition.

I need to finish painting my Dark Disciples but I'm greatly looking forward to using mine, although I think I'll be going with the Accursed Cultists to lead instead. Although a giant blob of cultists with Tz as you mentioned sounds very good as well and deadlier than you'd expect.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Great analysis of your battle, I've been considering a Brazen Beasts style list with some similar units so it's great to read your perspective.

Too bad for the Discolord, it's a great model and I was considering mine for the warlord for a daemon engine heavy list but he seems very poor for his points cost. I was actually considering a DP with Wings instead but based on your report it seems they are more fragile than I'd care for.

How are you running your Warp Talons? Rapid Ingress or something else? I've got 10 of them lying around I haven't used since 8th and I'd love to give them a purpose again.

For Traitor Guardsmen I had been using them with the Nurgle Mark in 1000pt games otherwise they kept getting blown off my backfield objective. I hadn't considered Tzeentch and the fact that 5+ Lethal Hits would work on Overwatch. I'm guessing you went with 2x Plasma and a Melta? I was doing 2x Snipers and a Plasma for mine, the Sniper Rifles are very potent this edition.

I need to finish painting my Dark Disciples but I'm greatly looking forward to using mine, although I think I'll be going with the Accursed Cultists to lead instead. Although a giant blob of cultists with Tz as you mentioned sounds very good as well and deadlier than you'd expect.

Have been running the Warptalons as a 5 man squad with Slannessh. I actually start them on the board behind LOS blocking ruins. Where I play the meta is very ruins heavy. Since they are infantry they can just move though the ruins, so don't waste movement going up and down and with slannesh they can advance and charge if necessary. I usually put them on a flank and then shoot up to an objective turn one, so they have to be dealt with or I will score points. They can bully light infantry and even small squads of marines as long as the marines are not close combat types. I am not sure how good a 10 man unit would be, they are a bit expensive for how fragile they are, and they can't take a leader to increase their combat effectiveness. I would be interested in hearing if 10 are any good.

For the guardsmen, I take a flamer, melta, plasma, but that is because that is what I have the squad modeled with. I would probably run all melta or all plasma if I wanted to make it more competitive. Yea with the guardsmen the [Lethal Hits] is much better than the [Sustained Hits] from nurgle. You might get more shots, but none of their weapons are that high of strength so the extra hits seem like they could end up wasted, where auto wounding, especially with melta against vehicles, almost guarantees damage. Also the [Lethal Hits] can make the lasgun shots dangerous against units with a bad save. This has been proven well with my cultist unit.

Yea I am on a break from buying WH right now, so no accursed cultists for me. But yes the tzeentch cultists can really punch up.

I like the idea of a daemon engine list, my next list is actually going to be that. I am hoping to play this Saturday. I am swapping out the warpsmith and the Disco Lord. I am adding a maulerfiend and a hellbrute. The hellburte is going to stay with the venomcrawlers giving them both [Lethal Hits] and [Sustained Hits] for their 12 shots, so I want to see how much damage the venomcrawlers can put out in that circumstance. I will post it when I can.

great analysis... conclusions on the Discordant are ones I share without having played him...just too expensive for a mediocre datasheet, I also wouldn't dream of fielding the prince in his current state either.

I'll be running a 4x obliterator squad myself on the next game, 4 of them may not be so bad. You know the enemy is going to hammer them once their on the board. Having that 4th may be what is required in order to squeeze of "skinshift" at least once...possible twice a game. I haven't achieved it yet but I imagine healing and bringing one back is quite demoralizing to your opponent.

Yeah there's a surprising amount of unit replenishment this edition, I'm all for it!

That's an interesting strategy with the Warp Talons, I like the idea of dumping a fast unit on an objective and forcing the enemy to deal with them, although getting shot off the board is certainly a concern. My last FLGS was very ruins heavy so I could imagine running that easily. Currently we have some more variety in terrain pieces and its a bit easier to establish LOS outside 24", but not always a guarantee as my forgefiend has learned.

I'm wondering if I've been misreading the flying rules. Although I admit, I only read it once since I don't often field fliers so my memory is a bit hazy. I had thought you only measure the vertical distance if you are starting or stopping on an elevated piece of terrain such as a wall? It sounds as though you have to measure (diagonally) all the time, is that correct?

For the traitor guard I chose Nurgle specifically for the stratagem, I found early on they were a very tempting target. I also opted for the high ground to let my Snipers get a better view.

Daemon Engines (and all tanks / walkers) are quite potent this edition. I'm considering 8 or more for my Brazen Beasts army, it'll be nice to bring out the murder crab defiler again. The scourge is looking rather potent and it can make it over terrain thankfully.