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That is a problem with price increases PEOPLE DON'T READ THE WHOLE THING. They see price increase and start to rant without reading the whole thing sounds like somthing an ork would do

moonshine wrote:That is a problem with price increases PEOPLE DON'T READ THE WHOLE THING. They see price increase and start to rant without reading the whole thing sounds like somthing an ork would do

Wait, people don't read the whole thing?

This is shockingly familiar. Like the Ward hate before this and whatever the internet was raging about before that and so on and so on.

I agree that this is frustrating news, but I think that there could be some good in it also.

If they really are going to be pumping the extra income into games development, better supplies, materials, etc. then I support it. An important thing that many of us seem to be forgetting is that you can't expect them to be able to continue to improve the game as a whole on the same budget that they had a year ago.

The new sculpts that we have been getting are on the most part stunning, a new armybook/codex every other month or so is very cool. Yes, paying more blows, but we should also try to think about how much the hobby has grown and how much more they have been putting out for us lately too.

Fact of the matter is that, prices have been increasing steadily but they have also been dumping tons of resources into continually improving the games through updated content, models, etc.

Alphapod wrote:
It seems clear to me (having taken ONE economics class) that GW is far underestimating the price elasticity of demand of their product. They seem to think that the decrease in sales from a price increase will always be outweighed by the increase in revenue. This isn't true; every demand curve has both elastic and inelastic segments. I believe (from what I know personally, from what I've heard, and from what I've read here) that GW is now in the elastic segment of their demand curve: they will experience a revenue decrease with price increases. Since many of their cost are not per unit (ex. paying sculptors, buying molds), it makes more sense for GW to try and sell more models, as the increase in revenue will not be dampened by an increase in total costs as much as would be expected because per-unit cost are falling (possibly could be called economies of scale).

Are you sure GW has underestimated the price elasticity of the demand for their product? Long ago I realised that I am not GW's target client (I've been in the hobby for fourteen years and easily spend $1000 usd a year) because there are few out there like me. Every move they make spites the long term buyers; 300% price increases over time on the same product, the decline of white dwarf, just read over dakka and you can see the decision making. Their target is children, in the 12-15 year range, and it is on them that they make their money. Kid comes in, buys a starter set, a codex, and three or four boxes, then never comes back in. It happens alot, I've seen it. I've spoken with my local Red Shirt (although they dont wear red anymore do they), and he tells me that those sales happen most frequently.

Thinking about it, he is probibally right. Of the fifty or so regulars (we have a decent local community), I would argue that a little less than half spend less than that 12-15 year old's start up in a given year. As much as they may hang out and play games, rarely do they buy anything. There is a second tier, people who buy models here or there, but are price sensitive, and only pay enough in-store to justify playing in-store, spending less that $500 dollars a year on the hobby (realistically many are lower). The rest of us either spend more, but really there can't be more than 10 of us who do. All togeather we probibally spend 35-40k in store a year, and I think I am high on that number, but my local GW has tried, rather successfully, to increase sales this year, and did a number of things right with incenitves. This number is not enough to keep a store running. For every 50 people GW gets started, assuming spend 3-400 each, GW brings in 15-20k. That means they only have to bring in one player every week, to hit that number. Ive seen my local red shirt bring in 3-4 people in a day (Obviously not repeatable every day, but at least once, if not twice, a week). Scary what their actual sales off of this customer base might actually be. I don't know that this is the case everywhere, but it is at my GW, and I am led to believe that this is the GW model.

Also, I don't know price flexibility matters so much when you factor in GW's actual costs vs. returns. Most of the models design costs are paid for, and their production costs are minimal. The fact that they could sell some of these models 20 for 22 dollars and still do well financially ought to indicate their cost per unit is very low. I think it is fair to say, across the board, prices have increased and average of 100% atleast since I've started. Chances are that is all profit. Even this most recent round of increase, 2-25%, is all profit; there is no way it is anything else. Depending on how much those who are leaving spent monthly (I'm assuming it wasn't equal to the insensitive bunch as per definition) vs. those who were price insensitive, not forgetting the other half of the client base, could mean that GW will see an increase in revenue even if 1 in 4 of their regular customers left. Not to mention, because of the high profit margin per unit, they may not lose money as a company unless a full half to two thirds of their regulars stopped buying. All of this is very speculative, but it is a possibility if my conception of the breakdown GW's customers are accurate.

I agree that this is frustrating news, but I think that there could be some good in it also.

I'm just not seeing it this time for reasons I've expressed earlier on. This is just one of four announcements this week that cut deep into their customers' ability to continue in the GW hobby. I'm not defending this one, not this time.

osumicrobio wrote:If they really are going to be pumping the extra income into games development, better supplies, materials, etc. then I support it.

1.) The money goes to paying dividends.
2.) Raising prices has never created more income for GW, on the contrary.

@Brass:
Yes, this has been a rough week for the hobby as far as news goes :-X I just see the hobby now compared to the hobby 12 years ago when I started and it is night and day. Some good things have been taken away, some good things have been added, but the hobby has changed completely and has a lot added to it.

@Kroot
Are you sure that the money is going to dividends or is that an assumption? Not trying to argue, just trying to get things straight. Generating extra income was probably poor word choice, I meant to say that it covers their increased costs of labor and materials going into updating the games.

pretre wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Are you kidding me.... I'm speechless. I'm absolutely dumbfounded.

I simply cannot afford to pay 40$ for a rhino. I cannot, by any means drop 30$ on a box of warriors. This is an outrage. I quit. Games Workshop is out of control, and they're obviously never going to lower their prices, so I see no reason to buy their products any more.

You got part of that first sentence right. Please read the spreadsheet again. Neither of those items went up in price. It in fact says 'No change in price' right next to them.

What are you talking about? It says 33.00 --> 39.75 or something. Same with 25.00 --> 29.75 for the warriors


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh. Lol. That's the price in CAD, not the new price. My window didn't expand far enough to see the top

I get that this is a recession, but this is just getting ridiculous.

I reckon that if they dropped the prices by 50p (Pound Sterling), people would hate on them less, and they'd sell more, which would be good for everything.

But then, it would be good for us poor players.

If you actually read they're end of year report you realise that they are not making milions, iirc only 1% of revenue getnerated was actually profit. The reason they cannot decrease prices is because: Material increases in price, shipping cost more, running stores cost more. If you decreased prices you would also need to decrease quality, here is an example:
If you make a model for 10£ and sell it for 20£ then you make 10£ profit

If you sell that same model for 12£ then you make 2" profit no matter how many you sell and you would need to sell 5 of those models to get theyr'e money back.

That is a small scale example and models do not actually cost 10£ to make (they are cheaper than that by far) but the principal is the same. You are stuck with a choice betwean having: good quality models or cheap models. In a few years I have no doubt people will be complaining about privateer press for increasing prices.

Oh and by the way a brand new Mould costs about 4000£- used, a good quality Mould would cost much more, you would need several of them to maintain quantity and the cost of maintaining them is very high indeed. Just somthing to think about.

I am in no way completly supporting gw but I like to look at all the Facts instead of going of and Bitching.

conversely though they are in the mess because of their behavior/decisions in the past.

The constant price hiking together with other silly decisions have brought their profits to a standstill.

osumicrobio wrote:@Kroot
Are you sure that the money is going to dividends or is that an assumption? Not trying to argue, just trying to get things straight. Generating extra income was probably poor word choice, I meant to say that it covers their increased costs of labor and materials going into updating the games.

GW's half-yearly report 25th january 2011 wrote:Operating profit at £6.7m (...)
A dividend of £7,784,000 (25.0 pence per share) was paid in the six months to 28 November 2010.

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/news/market-news/market-news-detail.html?announcementId=10770556
I am no financial expert, but dividend looks £1m greater than the profit.

moonshine wrote:If you actually read they're end of year report you realise that they are not making milions, iirc only 1% of revenue getnerated was actually profit. The reason they cannot decrease prices is because: Material increases in price, shipping cost more, running stores cost more. If you decreased prices you would also need to decrease quality, here is an example:
If you make a model for 10£ and sell it for 20£ then you make 10£ profit

If you sell that same model for 12£ then you make 2" profit no matter how many you sell and you would need to sell 5 of those models to get theyr'e money back.

That is a small scale example and models do not actually cost 10£ to make (they are cheaper than that by far) but the principal is the same. You are stuck with a choice betwean having: good quality models or cheap models. In a few years I have no doubt people will be complaining about privateer press for increasing prices.

Oh and by the way a brand new Mould costs about 4000£- used, a good quality Mould would cost much more, you would need several of them to maintain quantity and the cost of maintaining them is very high indeed. Just somthing to think about.

I am in no way completly supporting gw but I like to look at all the Facts instead of going of and Bitching.

But a more ACCURATE measure would be to take a look at their revenues. While there was an increase in revenue, their sales VOLUME seems to have decreased when you take into account inflation and price increases.

So although they are making more revenue, their profits are flat and their sales volume is decreasing. Basic economics shows that if the aggregate demand has decreased, increasing cost is the LAST thing you should do. That would only further decrease demand. Instead, GW should be keeping stable pricing and working to decrease their costs.

In a company like Games Workshop, I would imagine that their biggest indirect costs must be the stores. In an environment where independent stores are floundering, why would GW maintain its own? Instead, moving that risk and cost outside the company, to distributors, would let GW cut costs, reduce risk, and spend capital on more direct-cost items.

As a world-wide leader in the industry, GW doesn't need to have its own stores in order to move their product. They already have the momentum those stores provided, but - at least here in the US - the solo-shops are not seeming to make money. If they are only a drain on GW's coffers, why not ax them and allow independent stores to fill the gap?

Well there goes me finishing my Tau army and building and armored IG army (I know mech IG but i like the tanks )

Like how can a cysis suit cost $30CAN!!!! Really? it sould be $20 max.

So for those who care, here's a quick breakdown of GW's revenues, cost of sales, and operating costs for the last five financial years.

Right below each amount, i dropped in the % change from one year to the next.

What we are seeing is that GW operating profits have not really been all that consistent over the years. While the net profits after tax have been smoothed out to look pretty on the financials, the operating profit is really a better measure of how their business is doing. And it looks like it's all over the place.

At the end of the day though, despite some great rebound from the recession in 2007, GW is not significantly ahead of their numbers in 2005. And - once again - these amounts are NOT taking inflation into account and NOT including price increases (which would artificially inflate revenue numbers).

Looking at expenses - one of the big "reasons" for price increases, we see that expenses have been fairly steadily decreasing since 2005. At the end of 2010, they were about 75% of what they were in 2005, despite increasing lead prices, and increasing oil costs.

Now GW has been closing stores, reducing staff to one person in many places. This would account for much of the reduced cost of sales. There has also been a consolidation of many back-office functions, but this would be reflected in Operating Costs, not in Cost of Sales.

However, even taking into account the store closings, the decrease in Cost of Sales during a period of rising material costs (oil and lead) would seem to imply that material costs are not a significant factor in Cost of Sales. That means that this material change - while helpful to GW's bottom line - will not significantly change the direct materials cost for figures. Also, it is an additional slap in the face as we watch GW adjust prices AGAIN to increase their revenue figures.

What this tells me is that the big cuts need to come from GW's indirect cost centers. They need to reexamine their sales structure, take a look at their 5-year plan to increase Hobby Center sales, and decide if Hobby Centers are really the future of their business, or if providing outside retailers, and ONLINE retailers with their products might not reduce costs and still drive the sales they desire.

If I were Tom Kirby, I wouldn't be lowering my salary or cutting my own benefits, but I'd be creating some explicit metrics for performance for each of my product lines, and taking a heavy cleaver to poorly performing products or segments.

Hobby Centers, I'm looking at you.

Scottywan82 wrote:
What this tells me is that the big cuts need to come from GW's indirect cost centers. They need to reexamine their sales structure, take a look at their 5-year plan to increase Hobby Center sales, and decide if Hobby Centers are really the future of their business, or if providing outside retailers, and ONLINE retailers with their products might not reduce costs and still drive the sales they desire.

If I were Tom Kirby, I wouldn't be lowering my salary or cutting my own benefits, but I'd be creating some explicit metrics for performance for each of my product lines, and taking a heavy cleaver to poorly performing products or segments.

Hobby Centers, I'm looking at you.

Thing is that the Stores are very valuable as a promotion tool, something whichs effectiveness is difficult to measure. Sure, if you only want to sell stuff, then Online stores are far more cost-effective. However, few people start the miniature hobby because they stumble upon it in the Internet.

Backfire wrote:

Thing is that the Stores are very valuable as a promotion tool, something whichs effectiveness is difficult to measure. Sure, if you only want to sell stuff, then Online stores are far more cost-effective. However, few people start the miniature hobby because they stumble upon it in the Internet.

I think what you're saying is true, but it largely applies to localities. There has never been a Games Workshop store within 200 miles of where I live. We however have a thriving Games-Workshop hobby community that on any given weekend there is a store within a half hour to forty five minute drive holding some kind of Warhammer event. I believe what Scottywan is proposing is shifting that job of hobby recruitment to Independent stores, which have more than just Games-Workshop products to rely on for facilitating profitability, and Games-Workshop becoming more like a distributor (while maintaining their website/direct sales of course), cutting their operating costs by reducing their own retail chain, which in theory would raise their net profit.

Well-run independent stores around the world have proved that they can (a) turn a profit, (b) support the hobby with tournaments, in-store gaming, modelling & painting support, new customer advice & assistance, etc., all the while with lower prices AND lower discounts than GW stores. So why does GW still have so many of its own retail stores that are failing at (a) or (b) or both?

moonshine wrote:That is a problem with price increases PEOPLE DON'T READ THE WHOLE THING. They see price increase and start to rant without reading the whole thing sounds like somthing an ork would do

Sorry, I have to ask, but how confident are you in your ability to understand what other people have or have not read?

I say this because you are totally wrong, and failed completely in your attempt to badmouth everyone that is upset about arbitrary price increases, by saying that they haven't read the whole thing.

Next time before posting I suggest you re-read your post, and consider all the myriad ways you are wrong, as well as the outrageous assumptions you make. Doing so may avoid making yourself seem stupid/ignorant/an ass.

derek wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Thing is that the Stores are very valuable as a promotion tool, something whichs effectiveness is difficult to measure. Sure, if you only want to sell stuff, then Online stores are far more cost-effective. However, few people start the miniature hobby because they stumble upon it in the Internet.

I think what you're saying is true, but it largely applies to localities. There has never been a Games Workshop store within 200 miles of where I live. We however have a thriving Games-Workshop hobby community that on any given weekend there is a store within a half hour to forty five minute drive holding some kind of Warhammer event. I believe what Scottywan is proposing is shifting that job of hobby recruitment to Independent stores, which have more than just Games-Workshop products to rely on for facilitating profitability, and Games-Workshop becoming more like a distributor (while maintaining their website/direct sales of course), cutting their operating costs by reducing their own retail chain, which in theory would raise their net profit.

This is seconded for me, i got into GW games back when there were no GW stores in the US and i did not see a GW store in person until i had been playing their games for well over a decade. my home area is about 350 miles from the nearest GW store and most likely always will be. i have a fair amount of local stores who deal in GW product. I believe (and have been personal told by a regional manager, back when they had them) that the local store is GW's best bet, they are local personal people who have a very personal vested interest in promoting these products. lets face it, its a great deal cheaper to provide a little support to a local retailer than it is to run a dedicated store, the same regional managers stance was the GW only opened stores where they felt they needed to promote their product due to a lack of local retailers. if this is the case they have a funny way of doing it.

GW ceased making any sense a great deal of time ago. When they were small and spunky and shipping chunks of lead across an ocean to me, their prices were a bit easier to take, but now with their modernized design and manufacturing process (which i know a bit about) their constant price increases, which really seem to outstrip inflation by a long shot are getting very intolerable if nothing else simply on principle. I am not adverse to paying a premium price for a premium product, or even paying a premium to help support my local store.

but i know when im being scr

ph34r wrote:

moonshine wrote:That is a problem with price increases PEOPLE DON'T READ THE WHOLE THING. They see price increase and start to rant without reading the whole thing sounds like somthing an ork would do

Sorry, I have to ask, but how confident are you in your ability to understand what other people have or have not read?

I say this because you are totally wrong, and failed completely in your attempt to badmouth everyone that is upset about arbitrary price increases, by saying that they haven't read the whole thing.

Next time before posting I suggest you re-read your post, and consider all the myriad ways you are wrong, as well as the outrageous assumptions you make. Doing so may avoid making yourself seem stupid/ignorant/an ass.

Nope my thing was about people moaning this thread has proved they do. I actually understood what I was talking about and I have made one rant because every price increase everybody else rants about it.

Wow! The stuff on that list is cheap!

Yup, I'm from Australia.

moonshine wrote:

ph34r wrote:

moonshine wrote:That is a problem with price increases PEOPLE DON'T READ THE WHOLE THING. They see price increase and start to rant without reading the whole thing sounds like somthing an ork would do

Sorry, I have to ask, but how confident are you in your ability to understand what other people have or have not read?

I say this because you are totally wrong, and failed completely in your attempt to badmouth everyone that is upset about arbitrary price increases, by saying that they haven't read the whole thing.

Next time before posting I suggest you re-read your post, and consider all the myriad ways you are wrong, as well as the outrageous assumptions you make. Doing so may avoid making yourself seem stupid/ignorant/an ass.

Nope my thing was about people moaning this thread has proved they do. I actually understood what I was talking about and I have made one rant because every price increase everybody else rants about it.

So when you said that nobody read the whole thing, and called everyone as dumb as an ork, what you REALLY meant to say was...

That you think everyone is moaning about this?



Sorry to be blunt, but you DO know that those are DIFFERENT things, right? As in, not the same concept. As in, you posted one thing and now insist that you posted something else.

No it is the same old tired out line of "I'm never playing agian lets boycote gw". It is like a broken record every price rise.

People in australia have somthing to moan about paying double the money for the same product is deffiantly wrong.

The people who live in the Uk and america etc.. It is going to cost about 4.50£ more in the UK for a 22.50£ box set which is about 7 us dollars. If you are going to get this upset about having to pay 7 dollars on average more then I would not check the price of gassoline every week. I guess it means you will have to buy less stuff or shop around a bit (heaven forbid)

Infact just of the top of my head here is an example of how to save some money :

You want 2 de khymera ?

You could buy them from gw for about 16£

or buy these for about 9£ http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/Wyrd-Miniatures/The-Neverborn/Waldgiest-2-pack-/prod_9291.html

It's really not hard to save money if you look around enough.

moonshine wrote:No it is the same old tired out line of "I'm never playing agian lets boycote gw". It is like a broken record every price rise.

People in australia have somthing to moan about paying double the money for the same product is deffiantly wrong.

The people who live in the Uk and america etc.. It is going to cost about 4.50£ more in the UK for a 22.50£ box set which is about 7 us dollars. If you are going to get this upset about having to pay 7 dollars on average more then I would not check the price of gassoline every week. I guess it means you will have to buy less stuff or shop around a bit (heaven forbid)

Infact just of the top of my head here is an example of how to save some money :

You want 2 de khymera ?

You could buy them from gw for about 16£

or buy these for about 9£ http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/Wyrd-Miniatures/The-Neverborn/Waldgiest-2-pack-/prod_9291.html

It's really not hard to save money if you look around enough.

Saving money with alternative minitures isnt the hard part.
Been allowed to play in GW stores and participating in tournaments with those minis are the problems.

No offense, moonshine, but have you not been paying attention to the news that in addition to this price change GW has also decided to prevent UK-based online stores (such as Wayland Games, the very store you just linked to) from shipping anywhere outside the UK or European Union?

Normally, yes, most of us would whine and moan and then grit our teeth and keep on buying. But now that GW is trying to strangle one of the few ways that we can get their products at a reasonable price while at the same time making it more difficult via making said products more expensive, people are starting to seriously get angry. Not just whiny, but legitimately angry. This goes double for folks down under, since now they've got next to no way to get GW items at anything other than obscene prices that are still going up.

It's not a matter of "Oh noes, another price change, everyone whine while doing nothing." It's a matter of finding out that one of the only reliable ways of getting GW miniatures at a decent price has disappeared at the exact same time that they chose to start squeezing us for even more money, even on products that haven't been out for a full month yet (i.e. Tomb Kings Army Book.)

Evilgnome wrote:Wow! The stuff on that list is cheap!

Yup, I'm from Australia.

Nice post

Although the price rise will not affect me personally as I won't be buying GW product, possibly not even second hand, I am saddened for younger players where the increase on retail prices may push the item beyond what is affordable.

I can't afford GW prices and maintain other interests. After all, sheer silk stockings and designer label basques don't grow on trees you know.

Can somebody please explain to me why Canadians pay more than Americans even though our dollar is stronger?

Flaming Troll wrote:Can somebody please explain to me why Canadians pay more than Americans even though our dollar is stronger?

Because GW is jealous of your moose, Australia's kangaroos and NZ's kiwis.

In all seriousness, it's because they can, and there's not much the consumers can do about it if they still want their Plague Marines.