Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Melissia wrote:

JudgeShamgar wrote:But people are already buying their models so....what does that say?

I didn't buy the models in question. They suck.

Not you, you the individual but YOU as in people who buy the product. Someone must be buying these or the company would go under.

Melissia wrote:No, but I have paid attention to the plight of women in warzones, especially the brutal and nasty ones in Africa.

Have you?

Are you really asking me this question?

I've actually been to some of these places. I teach classes on the politics of these places.

Yeah, I've paid attention.

Melissia wrote:
"Being sexy" has very little power in a warzone. That's just a myth created by male fantasy.

And wearing a fireman's jacket has equally little power.

Its a wargame. A fantasy. It predicated on rule of cool.

dogma wrote:Its a wargame. A fantasy. It predicated on rule of cool.

And only you are allowed to dictate what is cool, then?

JudgeShamgar wrote:Not you, you the individual but YOU as in people who buy the product. Someone must be buying these or the company would go under.

I am not under the ludicrous opinion that just because something is popular it must be good.

PhantomViper wrote:

c0un7_z3r0 wrote:]There you are wrong, it does reflect the creators personal stance in a whole lot of issues, very much so. Sure If you look at one mini that looks a certain way, you can't say very much but when you look at a whole miniature range and a whole world of miniature gaming you sure can, especially when compared to the real world! The world of miniature-gaming isn't an isolated island by itself, its very much an active agent in shaping our society!

So if creating models that display females in more sensual poses is defending the objectification of women, what do you think about creating a whole setting that glorifies slavery, genocide, racism, etc? And what do you think about the people that activelly choose to play with said armies? Aren't they supporting those views with their choices?

Don't you think that that line of reasoning is a little bit flawed and extremist?

Touché ! I'm not saying that the purpose with a cheesecake female mini is to defend the objectification of women or that the purpose of a beefcake male mini is to defend the objectification of men. That is never the less the result. What they have done though, is to follow the normative pattern for how men and women should look and behave, whether this is intentionally or not I can not say. Probably not, I believe they just want to make cool minis.

To answer your other question, I believe that for example GW is quite clear on one point and its that for example the 40k universe is totally fu#&ed up. They don't really say that for example the Imperium of man, which just pops up in to my mind , necessarily are any nice chaps. They believe so (the Imperium) but GW leave it up to us to decide really. Sure the Imperium is somewhat depicted as the good guys but I say its up to you to decide. This is something they should emphasize a little more and yes in a way I do find it somewhat disturbing ('cause the imperium is really totally evil and disgusting, if such a word as "evil" is to be used at all). The minis however are more real in a sense. How they are made is not up to debate as much as how we should perceive the fluff. Because, if women and men almost entirely are depicted in two distinctively different ways in accordance with a global pattern of normative perceptions or ideas, that is a matter of fact rather than opinion and will more directly effect you. Of course we need an overhaul on the fiction as well, women will have to be visible both in mini and in text!

Melissia wrote:I'm getting the feeling that this boils down to people saying "I want them to make models that I want to buy and play with" and then the ones that like cheesecake are basically saying "no screw you I like the models they already have!"

Meh.

They already make models that you want to buy and play with. They ALSO make models you don't want to buy or play with. So, stick to the former.

Melissia wrote:

dogma wrote:Its a wargame. A fantasy. It predicated on rule of cool.

And only you are allowed to dictate what is cool, then?

JudgeShamgar wrote:Not you, you the individual but YOU as in people who buy the product. Someone must be buying these or the company would go under.

I am not under the ludicrous opinion that just because something is popular it must be good.

As the reigning King High Almighty of Cool my pocket protector, suspenders, and black sock wearing with sandals am allowed to dictate what is truly cool and what is not.

Popularity is not an indication of anything other than people (not you personally, just so you know) will buy/eat/make some kind of consumable goods.

Mastiff wrote:They already make models that you want to buy and play with.

Except that they don't if I want to have a full army and play the game.

Especially if I want to have women in my army.

Absolutionis wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Isn't this debate starting to wander increasingly into strange, slightly hypocritical and badly defined concepts of acceptability based on toy soldiers? I think perhaps there is too much being read into our choices as "generals" of our tiny metal militaries. Pop psychology rubbish abounds.

Thus: Liking scantily clad, provocatively posed miniatures does not make one a proto-rapist, a sexist, or any other 'ist.'. Likewise, playing a GAME with teeny models does not mean that one is a heartless monster, a future war-criminal, or anything of the sort.

Next up: All the Flames of War players using SS units are declared to be actual Nazis and war criminals? All the Soviet players are now de facto Communists?

Aside from your complete irrelevance to the topic being discussed, you really invalidated your entire argument by downplaying everyone's hobby on a forum dedicated to that hobby.

The topic being discussed isn't whether or not "sexy" miniatures are appropriate per se or whether it makes people into rapists or whatever you misread. It's about whether sexualized models striking up pinup poses in an otherwise serious range are appropriate.
Put quite simply, people are arguing whether or not unfittingly sexualized models are fitting for a range.

JudgeShamgar wrote:You know going in that some of your units will die.

Welcome to the not-real-world where my Eldrad Ulthran has been 'killed' countless times in petty skirmishes... and that's years after he officially died in the fluff. I think I'll field him in yet another game next week for funsies.
Some of us like a bit of believability in our wargames. Believability =/= realism.

What, you didn't read the posts about how one MUST be heartless in order to play wargames to some degree or another? THE ONES YOU QUOTED? Some people are arguing this using such ridiculous pop psychology, thus my comment. Some people might be arguing about whether these figures "fit" in the range, others appear to be having a completely different argument about the appropriateness of these figures period and even the appropriateness of the players who choose them or revile them. Catch up eh?

And no, its not 'downplaying the hobby' to point out that choosing X army does not make one a Communist or a Sexist or a Nazi. Its just "the case".

c0un7_z3r0 wrote:
To answer your other question, I believe that for example GW is quite clear on one point and its that for example the 40k universe is totally fu#&ed up. They don't really say that for example the Imperium of man, which just pops up in to my mind , necessarily are any nice chaps. They believe so (the Imperium) but GW leave it up to us to decide really. Sure the Imperium is somewhat depicted as the good guys but I say its up to you to decide....

To be fair, it's only recently that the the Imperium has been written in a way that allows the possibility that they might not be completely evil. They were always intended to be a totalitarian nightmare, essentially George Orwell's 1984 taken to absurd extremes. The setting was intended to be nihilistic and pitiless, where God (the emperor) was dead, but the church lived on as a corrupt political, bureaucratic force where charity and brotherhood are a weakness.

That's been softened in the last decade to appeal to a younger and international audience.

JudgeShamgar wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:The topic being discussed isn't whether or not "sexy" miniatures are appropriate per se or whether it makes people into rapists or whatever you misread. It's about whether sexualized models striking up pinup poses in an otherwise serious range are appropriate.
Put quite simply, people are arguing whether or not unfittingly sexualized models are fitting for a range.

I want to publicly apologize for bringing feelings or mental inclination into the discussion.

I'm going to quote myself on this and maybe you will see it this time.

I'm not even sure that it's been softened really so much as they've explored it more and you can't keep exploring the same boring old "life sucks and then you die" without being, well, bored.

Melissia wrote:

Mastiff wrote:They already make models that you want to buy and play with.

Except that they don't if I want to have a full army and play the game.

Especially if I want to have women in my army.

Then substitute with models you do like. I'm pretty picky about models. I don't buy the ones I don't like, I go through the range to find appropriate substitutes for critical models in my army. It's inconvenient, but I feel it's more important that I get the model I want. My reason for choosing not to buy specific models may be different than yours, but the solution remains the same.

Would you agree that Infinity has some female models that are not offensive? Or do you feel that no females would work as subs, and you don't want to use male figs to replace them either?

Mastiff wrote:[snip]

None of the above. I think that if they must do distasteful miniatures (such as cheesecake), especially ones that don't fit in with the rest of the army like these don't, they should also provide alternatives so that the buyer doesn't NEED to substitute.

Melissia wrote:I'm not even sure that it's been softened really so much as they've explored it more and you can't keep exploring the same boring old "life sucks and then you die" without being, well, bored.

No, I'd still say "softened". Read the original books. There were no heroes. They were written by young men who grew up in Thatcher's Britain. They were pretty clear in their contempt for bureaucrats who would choose the rule of law over the well-being of humanity every time. Thus they told stories of black arcs that fed a million souls (of psychers) to a dead emperor every single day. Every page of their books was saturated with quotes that dripped hypocrisy and xenophobia, and bureaucratic and fascist contempt for the common man. Every single character was irredeemably flawed, often offensively so. The point they emphasized in every line of every page was that there were no "good guys", no hope or redemption, just ruthless powers exploiting the common man.

They've given up the political and socio-economic internal dynamic (the government vs. her people) of the setting that made 40k unique to move to a more palatable external dynamic (our nation/race vs. the other nation/race).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

Mastiff wrote:[snip]

None of the above. I think that if they must do distasteful miniatures (such as cheesecake), especially ones that don't fit in with the rest of the army like these don't, they should also provide alternatives so that the buyer doesn't NEED to substitute.

Fair enough. Saying they should provide you with alternatives suggests you are powerless to solve your problem.

But that's the point. Speaking for myself, there is no alternative for the ALEPH Posthumans or the Naga Sniper.

dogma wrote:Its a wargame. A fantasy. It predicated on rule of cool.

There you are wrong! A wargame isn't an isolated island from the rest of the society! In that case, is a newspaper just a media for communicating recent events, a commercial just promotion for a certain object or scervice, a movie just a random story in motion pictures, a history book just an "objective" account of history, an encyclopedia just an "summary of information from either all branches of knowledge or a particular branch of knowledge" and so on? In such a case does any form of inequality or oppression exist at all!?

Kanluwen wrote:But that's the point. Speaking for myself, there is no alternative for the ALEPH Posthumans or the Naga Sniper.

So rather than repaint, say, a celestial guard http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/en/2011/miniatures/celestial-guard-2/ in your Aleph colours, you feel that CB has a responsibility to change their product line.

Alright, let me know how that works out for you.

Kanluwen wrote:But that's the point. Speaking for myself, there is no alternative for the ALEPH Posthumans or the Naga Sniper.

You can't find female future snipers on the internet? You're not doing it right then.

Picking a very random example, Studio Mcvey do at least two figures that would make nice snipers and don't look out of place with the originals you don't like, or the rest of the range. And I found those whilst looking up what a Naga sniper IS.

I think that cheesecake is suitable as long as you don't get crumbs on the gaming board

Mastiff wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:But that's the point. Speaking for myself, there is no alternative for the ALEPH Posthumans or the Naga Sniper.

So rather than repaint, say, a celestial guard http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/en/2011/miniatures/celestial-guard-2/ in your Aleph colours, you feel that CB has a responsibility to change their product line.

Alright, let me know how that works out for you.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:But that's the point. Speaking for myself, there is no alternative for the ALEPH Posthumans or the Naga Sniper.

You can't find female future snipers on the internet? You're not doing it right then.

Picking a very random example, Studio Mcvey do at least two figures that would make nice snipers and don't look out of place with the originals you don't like, or the rest of the range. And I found those whilst looking up what a Naga sniper IS.

Miniatures games don't work that way and you both know this.

Using a Celestial Guard or a Studio McVey model to represent an Aleph Proxy would be like using a Chaos Space Marine model or a Cygnar Sword Knight as a Space Marine so long as you paint it up in the right colors. An outside may think it's fine, but a person that actually cares about their hobby would find it just wrong.

The world isn't as simple as you think regardless of how ignorant you choose to be on the topic you're arguing about.

I don't just have a problem with cheesecake poses, but with most implausible poses. That's not to say that people can't have "badass" or "dynamic" models in their army, but when a unit is comprised of one guy actually aiming his gun and three people striking poses, it always looks silly to me. I try to model units in plausible or plausible-ish combat or support poses whenever possible, and one problem I have with Infinity is that lots of models just don't do it for that æsthetic.

That being said, a lot of people do like the Infinity anime-esque or "cheesecake" style, and I'm not one to critique others for having different tastes and preferences. Personally, I find many Infinity models to be too unrealistic/impractically outfitted and posed, so I don't buy them, but Corvus Belli's general success shows that there are lots of people out there who don't mind. And that's good! There should be games and miniatures available for whatever style people want.

Absolutionis wrote: Miniatures games don't work that way and you both know this.

No, but the world does. Hoping that a company will make an alternative to a successful product because a minority won't buy it is unrealistic. What Kan can control is finding an alternative.

Absolutionis wrote:The world isn't as simple as you think regardless of how ignorant you choose to be on the topic you're arguing about.

Do you feel getting CB to make a more conservative alternative to a successful mini is simpler than Kan looking for a substitute among their existing line?

...but a person that actually cares about their hobby would find it just wrong.

You're adorable. Don't ever change.

Absolutionis wrote:

Mastiff wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:But that's the point. Speaking for myself, there is no alternative for the ALEPH Posthumans or the Naga Sniper.

So rather than repaint, say, a celestial guard http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/en/2011/miniatures/celestial-guard-2/ in your Aleph colours, you feel that CB has a responsibility to change their product line.

Alright, let me know how that works out for you.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:But that's the point. Speaking for myself, there is no alternative for the ALEPH Posthumans or the Naga Sniper.

You can't find female future snipers on the internet? You're not doing it right then.

Picking a very random example, Studio Mcvey do at least two figures that would make nice snipers and don't look out of place with the originals you don't like, or the rest of the range. And I found those whilst looking up what a Naga sniper IS.

Miniatures games don't work that way and you both know this.

Using a Celestial Guard or a Studio McVey model to represent an Aleph Proxy would be like using a Chaos Space Marine model or a Cygnar Sword Knight as a Space Marine so long as you paint it up in the right colors. An outside may think it's fine, but a person that actually cares about their hobby would find it just wrong.

The world isn't as simple as you think regardless of how ignorant you choose to be on the topic you're arguing about.

What utter toss. Miniature games have worked like this since a bunch of beardies in the 60s took a load of plastic airfix men and kitbashed Orcs out of them. Probably even before that. Just because GW and their ilk have forced the issue by demanding that players only play their games with their official men/dice/tape measures/paints/clothes, doesn't mean that anybody else in the world gives a crap for that idea. I use Rackham and Heresy figures in my Cryx army. I have PSC/Battlefront/Old Glory/QRF figures in my FOW armies. I used a 1/35 Leopard Tank conversion as a battlewagon for years.

An Aleph sniper is (apparently) a girl with a sniper rifle, some sort of goggles, and that's about it. Mcvey has a girl with a rifle. I'll add a bit of brass rod for a suppressor. She already HAS goggles. Job done. Guess what? I just bought a Haqqislam sniper to use with another ruleset!! OMG! Clearly I must be acting with act with a cavalier disegard for the Hobby and its "rules" which say I can only use a figure for the game setting it was designed for, must NOT mix manufacturers, or use a similar figure . Emperor preserve my heretical soul for painting in non-codex schemes!!!

Monster Rain wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:No actually, it doesn't. None of the objections raised by myself or Slarg or Melissia are based simply upon "Hurr sexy models are bad". They're the fact that the models don't fit within the range proper, and for some asinine reason this is considered acceptable because "Infinity has anime inspiration!".

If that is indeed true that Infinity is inspired by Anime and Manga, you realize that Anime generally has some "cheesecake" elements to it and it's not inconsistent at all.

Kanluwen wrote:It's like if the Space Marines suddenly started fielding Assault Marines in bananahammocks and rollerblades, with wifebeaters on. It ruins the whole visual tie of the army--and it's not something that can simply be fixed with a paintjob.

Why on earth would I care about that? If it was well converted and painted I think that would by hysterical.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

Mastiff wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Mastiff: you've pretty much exemplified my point there. Why do we need the models showing skin or cheesecake poses when there's plenty of troops which look professional, yet still maintain the manga/anime aspect that Infinity is built upon?

Because people like them. Why do you object to other people liking something you don't?

I don't object to people liking them. I object to the fact that they are forced down your throat by dint of being in the range.

Who's the bad man making you buy these models?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Why they don't just err on the side of practicality(and business sense) and create a "collectors" and a "gamers" range is beyond me.

Because scantily clad women don't move product.

Oh, wait...

Yeah Monster Rain, you nailed it... Now Espect Kan to ignore your post and then a couple pages down this thread he will post the damn same complains all over again, ad eternum.

Why should one be forced to buy from a different company just to play the first company's game without buying gak models?

I read all this and my thoughts are basically, who cares? Buy the models, dont buy the models, nobody else really gives a crap what you do.

Choice is a wonderful thing, it would be a bloody boring world if everyone agreed on everything.

ArbeitsSchu wrote: OMG! Clearly I must be acting with act with a cavalier disegard for the Hobby and its "rules" which say I can only use a figure for the game setting it was designed for, must NOT mix manufacturers, or use a similar figure . Emperor preserve my heretical soul for painting in non-codex schemes!!!

Please report to your Hobby beardy judge for some serious spanking, HOW DARE YOU!? You are not "a person that cares about the hobby", Shame on you!

Melissia wrote:Why should one be forced to buy from a different company just to play the first company's game without buying gak models?

He isn't, no one is forcing him to do anything that he doesn't wan't.

If he doesn't like the model and he doesn't wan't to find / convert a replacement (and unlike "other" gaming companies, CB actively promotes the use of proxies, even from other companies), he can simply not play the game.

Miniature manufacturers don't have to cater to every single taste in every player in the world.

CB decided to make the game the way it is, you don't like it? Then don't play it.

And I actually like the Naga Sniper model, you calling it gak is again you trying to enforce your opinions on others.

Why should one be forced to purchase exclusively from a single manufacturer to field a clearly generic figure? Its just some girl with a fairly standard looking rifle and a body-suit. I could buy it a hundred times over, or the elements of it.

Am I the ONLY person in the world who scrolls through Maelstroms' catalogues looking for nice figures that might look good painted up and fielded in a given force? Or discard the 'ugly' figures and look for nicer alternatives? I don't spend all my time bemoaning that Designer X failed to exactly match my aesthetic requirements for "girl sniper two." I go out and buy a different one, often for less money than the original. Or I kitbash one. I end up with something unique. This pleases me.

For example: I like Menoth. I dislike Menoth infantry casts. So I search for suitable arabic/crusades looking miniatures to make nicer infantry which will be unique to me.

Melissia wrote:Why should one be forced to buy from a different company just to play the first company's game without buying gak models?

To play first company game you just need to download the FREE rules and play with the minis you have at home from any other game... you have options no one is forcing you to do nothing in that regard but I get the feeling you guys that assimilated the GW model biz doctrine don't have a clue what wargaming is and was... maybe a trip into 15mm realms would teach you guys some foundations about wargaming...