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 Hulksmash wrote:
As for the in universe I disagree on pretty much all counts with you. In regards to warning the neighbors the last time they tried to help a neighbor they missed their chance to evacuate and avoid all of this. Additionally they have until morning until "Cobalt" goes into effect. They don't have time to persuade a ton of people to come with.

I still question the likelihood that the big bad evil military would abandon and annihilate the few surviving people it has left to protect....

Regarding the gate yes, they left it open. This is still early. They don't really understand the threat and have been told there is a 6 mile clear zone. Not to mention maybe they thought it'd be faster for people when they run for it when "Cobalt" starts if the gate is open? We dont' know their thoughts so assuming they didn't think about it is as valid as assuming they did. Personally I think it comes down to not understanding the world yet. Not fully.

I think more likely they just didn't care, they saw no need to close it.

As for the hospital you do realize these people don't know what you know right? It's a group that has been lied to, had their people taken in the middle of the night, and who have found out their supposed to be killed when the army pulls back. They are concerned with their family and that's it. Because the government pushed them into this by their actions.

They don't necessarily know what they think they know either...

I think the problem here is that FtWD shows the preposterousness of the entire walking dead situation.

Yep. I mean, they could have gotten us to this same place through any one of a dozens of more interesting narratives which would have resulted in a more interesting and a bit more believable. They could have had the military simply (and visibly) be shown to be attritioned down by the walkers who control the streets around their outposts (picture something similar to the horde around the prison in TWD) until finally by weight of numbers they bring down the fence and begin to overrun the facility. THe military pulls out, saigon style, and leaves the majority of the civvies behind to fend for themselves and bam, we're back to essentially the same spot in the story, without all the required plotholes and streotypical bad-guy-govment horsegak.

Yep. I mean, they could have gotten us to this same place through any one of a dozens of more interesting narratives which would have resulted in a more interesting and a bit more believable. They could have had the military simply (and visibly) be shown to be attritioned down by the walkers who control the streets around their outposts (picture something similar to the horde around the prison in TWD) until finally by weight of numbers they bring down the fence and begin to overrun the facility. THe military pulls out, saigon style, and leaves the majority of the civvies behind to fend for themselves and bam, we're back to essentially the same spot in the story, without all the required plotholes and streotypical bad-guy-govment horsegak.

Indeed. Instead of EVILZ government taking our people it could have been those members go to the hospital, which essentially gets overrun.
THAT would have been more interesting.

So I guess you guys hated World War Z (the book) for the same reasons? What do you think the Redeker Plan would have looked like to the citizens involved? Bad guy government, right?


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 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I've talked about this before, but I don't understand why some focus so much on the "smartness" of the actions of the characters in TWD dramas. I don't watch a western or a political thriller and turn it into a "what ya wanna do here is..." game.

Besides, a narrative featuring nothing but "the right decisions" (if those could even be identified) would make for pretty boring entertainment.

Because everyone plays Left 4 Dead and figures they're suddenly a zombie survivalist expert.

Maybe, I dunno. I get that it's kind of a thought experiment that some geeks like to play, but I'm not sure why geeks of all people think they'd become superstars when society collapses and things get realer than real.

In the event of an apocalypse, I'd probably stay away from fellow geeks, just because I tend to think they'd get me and anyone with me killed.

Avoid the island escape idea....you and about 10 million other people have thought of that....
I can actually believe the US Military falling apart towards the end when the service members know its lost and willing to get out of Dodge to provide support for THEIR family.

 gorgon wrote:
So I guess you guys hated World War Z (the book) for the same reasons? What do you think the Redeker Plan would have looked like to the citizens involved? Bad guy government, right?

Fun book, but clearly it was in error. The US wouldn't retreat to the Rockies. It would retreat to Texas.

 gorgon wrote:
So I guess you guys hated World War Z (the book) for the same reasons? What do you think the Redeker Plan would have looked like to the citizens involved? Bad guy government, right?

I respect World War Z (the book) for telling the story as a 'bigger picture' instead of focusing on a specific group of survivors in a specific area that nobody cares about, and in that regard, I find it entertaining... but I absolutely hate the "logic" and "physics" that were used in writing it, which doesn't surprise me as it was written by Max Brooks who is responsible for the waste of paper that is the Zombie Survival Guide, which is (in my opinion) the worst thing to ever happen to zombie fiction, resulting in a general push by all zombie stories to try to be more 'scientific' and 'rational' in their depictions of what is an inherently unscientific and irrational thing. Beyond that, Im not a fan of the overweight neckbears who've read it and now think they know something about surviving outside of their parents basements.

I can actually believe the US Military falling apart towards the end when the service members know its lost and willing to get out of Dodge to provide support for THEIR family.

I can't. For one thing, I doubt the situation would get that far. Beyond that, most personnel will have loved ones (significant others, children, girlfriends, etc.) on or near base, whereas their parents/grandparents, siblings, cousins, etc. are likely scattered across the country/in an area that is otherwise going to be inaccessible to them. I believe service members would be more likely to stick around in order to protect those family member they know are still alive back at base and/or safezones near base rather than abandon the effort and those friends/family that they know are safe and alive in said areas, in order to save people that they may never be able to locate due to distance and travel, and are most likely already dead. Beyond that, its in service members best interest to keep operating as a cohesive unit, since the chances of their own personal survival is much higher together than off on their own.

This is one thing that World War Z (the film) seemed to get right, as there was a tacit threat made to Brad Pitt's character that if he didn't cooperate/do his job, his family would no longer be taken care of, and IIRC the commander of the ship more or less states that this is true of all personnel, including his own troops, and as a plot device to keep the military functioning, it works, and it also makes sense. Aside from that, the movie was garbage for the simple reason that the spread of the infection (12 seconds if I recall) was far too rapid to allow for it to spread across geographic barriers. An infected individual couldnt even board a plane, for example, to bring the disease to a new continent, because he would have already turned well before even arriving at the airport, the only way it would work is in a manner similar to whats seen on film where a zombie manages to stow away somehow and then gets loose to infect new people. Problem with that is, the point at which a zombie is able to stow away aboard a plane would require the infection to be so widespread in the region of its origin that most nations would probably close down their borders and put themselves in quarantine, etc. to prevent spread.

The island plan generally wouldn't work due to lack of water at least on the saltwater side of things. They actually cancelled a Naked and Afraid venue on one of the barrier islands in GA due to complete lack of accessible water. Without power to tap existing wells on barrier islands to the aquifer any group would run out of any standing water pretty quick, even if there was a short term abundance of food. Then even if there is standing water in enough amount for people to drink, it still has to be purified, although that at least is easy to do if you have at least a week to prepare and the mail still works. I would assume the arid California coast would have the same issues(never researched it).

The best locations are places with defendable walls or terrain features that wont be destroyed by simply pushing them over. A place with enough open land to and the climate to grow crops. A place with accessible water. And a place with shelter from extreme elements of nature. Your average house or neighborhood wont work.

Islands do fit a bit of this criteria, but seeing as the population of the US is pretty much centered on the coastline and pretty much everyone will think of this as well, islands will be a no go situation and eventually only the most powerful gangs will control them.

It is possible to build yourself fortifications with simple thinking if you have a group big enough to pull it off. Semi-truck trailers, cargo containers, train cars, busses, and using existing terrain features and buildings. Those concrete highway walls they put up to shield neighborhoods from highways would be really useful if you had the means to move them. Civil War forts to a degree.

Stealth is also a viable plan. Go somewhere people aren't with limited access and limited visibility from the outside. Just make sure your GOTH plan is well rehearsed and prepared for when Murphy comes to visit.

 Jihadin wrote:
Avoid the island escape idea....you and about 10 million other people have thought of that....
I can actually believe the US Military falling apart towards the end when the service members know its lost and willing to get out of Dodge to provide support for THEIR family.

That's actually addressed in the FTWD finale. The soldiers escorting Travis to the hospital stop to clear out a building, gak hits the fan, the Lieutenant is killed (or whoever the senior officer was) and the survivors decide to go AWOL, and drop Travis back at the safe zone a couple blocks away.

Which is kinda bs if you think about it... the safe zone has helos.

by safe zone, do you mean the hospital? I was referring to the fortified camp around Madison & Travis' neighborhood. It's a separate location some considerable distance away from the hospital, otherwise Travis wouldn't have to be escorted there by Humvee.

My impression was that the soldiers didn't want to return to the hospital because they want to go AWOL and save their own skins. Returning to their units and boarding the evac Helos means they're back in the chain of command and have to obey their superiors, which means putting their lives at further risk. It was every man for himself.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Beyond that, most personnel will have loved ones (significant others, children, girlfriends, etc.) on or near base, whereas their parents/grandparents, siblings, cousins, etc. are likely scattered across the country/in an area that is otherwise going to be inaccessible to them. I believe service members would be more likely to stick around in order to protect those family member they know are still alive back at base and/or safezones near base rather than abandon the effort and those friends/family that they know are safe and alive in said areas, in order to save people that they may never be able to locate due to distance and travel, and are most likely already dead.

The guys in FTWD are all National Guard though, right? So their families are at home, and not necessarily in the immediate vicinity of their bases. Note the Guardsmen who went AWOL was from San Diego, IIRC.

Beyond that, its in service members best interest to keep operating as a cohesive unit, since the chances of their own personal survival is much higher together than off on their own.

You wouldn't be saying that if you had a wife and kids in need of protection.

 Jihadin wrote:
Avoid the island escape idea....you and about 10 million other people have thought of that...

I'd grab as many fruit/veggy seeds as possible from the local Home & Garden shop, then I'd steal a boat and head to Equador.

Season 2 FTWD discussion starts...NOW!


My take on the season premiere: What I was worried about when I heard about the show feels like its coming to pass. While the first season was interesting because we were dealing with a totally new thing we hadn't seen on the original show (the origins of the zombie outbreak), now that we're past that, we're left with essentially the same themes as the other show, but with a bunch of characters in the really annoying phases where they still act like total idiots all the time.

And as season 2 continues it seems like the 'best case' scenario will be that they get over that stupidity phase rather quickly, but then we'll kind of just be left with a different version of the original show, just with a different setting and different leads. Maybe that's enough to base a series off of, but I'm still not sure.

They could have dragged the buildup to and fall of society a bit more. Now that we're still in the early months, rather than years, of the outbreak, it'd be nice to see stuff Rick's group didn't.

Did we ever see early settlements with Rick? They seemed to walk about a lot, and did found one themselves, but most of the survivors they meet in the early days are on the road like them. The novels handled those, but given that we've already encountered two in Fear (the military safe zone and the "squatters" camp), maybe that's something which they'll cover.

Similarly, more about the breakup of the military would be interesting. The characters are already distrustful of them, but I wouldn't mind seeing soldiers who have either deserted, or are still clinging on. People still holding onto their old lives presumably would feature at least a bit in the series.

How many weeks in is the timeline right now? I assume that the US CDC is still in operation (the European ones conked out a few weeks before that IIRC), or are things past the two month point now?

 Wyrmalla wrote:
They could have dragged the buildup to and fall of society a bit more. Now that we're still in the early months, rather than years, of the outbreak, it'd be nice to see stuff Rick's group didn't.

Did we ever see early settlements with Rick? They seemed to walk about a lot, and did found one themselves, but most of the survivors they meet in the early days are on the road like them. The novels handled those, but given that we've already encountered two in Fear (the military safe zone and the "squatters" camp), maybe that's something which they'll cover.

Similarly, more about the breakup of the military would be interesting. The characters are already distrustful of them, but I wouldn't mind seeing soldiers who have either deserted, or are still clinging on. People still holding onto their old lives presumably would feature at least a bit in the series.

How many weeks in is the timeline right now? I assume that the US CDC is still in operation (the European ones conked out a few weeks before that IIRC), or are things past the two month point now?

Agreed to all of that.

I really didn't like whatever little time jump happened between the end of the last season and the premiere. When we left them in the S1 finale, Strand's house and that community was completely and totally deserted, not a walker in sight. Then when we pick up the show, all of a sudden LA is getting bombed and the coastline is absolutely crawling with walkers.

Why couldn't the first episode have picked up right after the finale? I would have liked to have seen when/how the military started bombing (maybe it was a budget issue?) and why the beaches suddenly ended up being covered in walkers.

I am not so sure it was a big time jump, but a huge shift. The body still being on the beach and not crab food indicates a very short time passage, but the arrival of a small horde and firebombing doesn't mesh with the end of last season.

I also would have liked to see a more thorough (and competent) handling of military activity. Presumably, large numbers of trained, heavily armed soldiers wanting to protect their families and communities and not become sudden little dictators would have had some effect. And if a bunch of ragtag stupid civvies can seem to consistently survive, why not much more organized military folk who are, you know, trained to operate in life or death scenarios?

But maybe that's why they gloss that angle- too much logic breakdown.

Anyway, pretty slow episode with lots of angst and stupidity. Strand seems to be adapting well. The desire by some of the others to let that group of desperate people close blew my mind. So how, exactly, would that turn out well? Likewise, the kids are acting dumb, but they are dumb kids so meh. Son should have gotten clocked for smacking his dad though. Whiney and getting violent? No sir!
Favorite part was where Strand backed off when a little backbone was demonstrated. Maybe he can train them into survivors after all!

I have to rewatch the final episode of the previous season, but wasn't the military's cleansing plan just about to begin? So presumably you're looking at that episode being later that same day that Travis shot Liza?

I also assumed the walkers were being pushed out of the bombed areas like rats off a sinking ship, but then in TWD we've recently seen them drawn to fire like moths. I'm not sure if TWD has been consistent about that throughout the show's history though.

Still, the thing to remember about zombies is that they aren't a true antagonist...they're more part of the setting, existing to push the characters around from place to place. They show up when they're needed by the writers.

Firebombing was supposed to commence early in the day of the last episode of last season. It's literally been hours since the end of season 1 and the beginning of season 2.

And while I could have done with more of a build up of the collapse at the same time we'd have gotten even more logic breakdowns if we did. Let's be realistic. The odds of a slow walker zombie outbreak really not being contained except in the most ridiculous of circumstances is so slim it'd have everyone yelling about how stupid everything is even more than they do now.

I do think it's interesting that even the 2 weeks they spent in that encampment have meant they are behind some of the other survivors out there. It's obvious another group is already playing pirate and already has a method for locating new boats as used on the daughter.

Liked this episode. When the dad says, "This is your fault!", I was kind of two minds. Partially because it's kind of dumb to blame others when you keep a bag full of poison pills around your kids. But on the other hand, it totally was. If they hadn't brought an addict looking for pills, the daughter would never had gotten into them.

And I really liked the survivalist son. At least he pulled the trigger when he needed to.

The whole episode kind of reminded me of a western in some ways....

I still hate most of the characters and am only watching in hopes they will start dying off. The old Hispanic guy and Strand are cool but will be brought down by the rest of the morons. Hell, even on the island they found people surviving and the dad complained about them killing zombies at the fence.

I really liked the firestorm scene in the first episode, but then I really cant stand LA or most of Southern Cali.

So where did the Navy go? Those planes came from somewhere. There are still submarines. I wonder if RIngo ever sued about this(he was in movie talks about his zombies on a boat series before Fear decided to turn into zombies on a boat.

When they were leaving the beach, out over the water you saw lots of lights. Where did those boats go?

Man, what a terrible back-half of episodes. I too am really only watching now hoping to see these characters get off'd. What's sad is that they took probably the only sensible character (Daniel) and made him rather suddenly start to go crazy when up to that point he had been the bedrock of the group. While apparently he may not be dead, it doesn't sound like he's going to be around for the 2nd half of the season even if he is still alive.

Meanwhile, half the rest of the main characters are acting like there isn't a freakin zombie apocalypse going on and randomly decided to split off from the group, which like the #1 way to not survive that kind of a situation is to split off from a group and go try to make it on your own.

Bleagh.

Yeah, Daniel's 'decent into madness' wasn't well handled at all.

I find myself not really caring about anyone in this group anymore - and I'm not sure I'll be returning to watch this show when it comes back in August.

I thought the show improved a lot once everyone started descending into madness. *shrug* It was at least interesting, which it wasn't before IMO.

I thought Daniel's descent makes sense. He's been leaning on his wife for years for his stability. Without her it's been slowly leeching away from him.

Also remember that while splitting up to us voluntarily is stupid they haven't really been on land much. The son knows how to survive amongst them so it's not an issue and the threat isn't truly real to Travis and Chris.

So far I'm a little past meh on the show. I like Strand and I like Madison. I like Nick. I really liked Daniel but we'll see how that goes. Overall I'm happy with where it is at at the moment and am looking forward to where we're going. This at least is improving episode to episode to me. Where with TWD we had a great season 1 and then a terrible season 2 that just didn't go anywhere.

Daniel's decent *would* make sense if it didn't happen with the flick of a switch.

I'll admit to not paying the closest attention to the show though, so maybe I missed the subtle/nuanced hints and clues they were showing?

It didn't happen at the flip of a switch. He starts hearing voices on the boat. He gets more edgy and is making questionable decisions which happens more frequently as the show goes on. He gets there and he's still mostly fine until he finds the basement of walkers. That, coinciding with his personal feelings of unresting souls, does the rest of the work.

Plus his hold is likely to slip a bit once he thinks his daughter is safe. And then that's pulled out from under him.