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What happens to a weapon destroyed result on the Manticore?

Does it destroy a single rocket or the entire rack?

And when you use a Techpriest on it, can you fire rockets that have been repaired but not yet fired?

I can't find any answers on pages 54 or 103 of the codex.

phantommaster wrote:What happens to a weapon destroyed result on the Manticore?

Does it destroy a single rocket or the entire rack?

And when you use a Techpriest on it, can you fire rockets that have been repaired but not yet fired?

I can't find any answers on pages 54 or 103 of the codex.

The entire rack. It's a Single Weapon that can fire 4 times, not 4 weapons that can fire once.

If you repair it, it can fire however many shots it had left.

Shame, thanks though

I sort of disagree with that. The whole vehicle is called a Manticore Missile Launcher, but the actual weapons are Storm Eagle rockets, not a Storm Eagle Rocket Launcher. Similarly to how a Vendetta can have individual Hellfury missiles and Stormravens can have bloodstrike missiles. A weapon destroyed result isn't going to destroy all remaining missiles on the Vendetta or Stormraven, so I would think that a weapon destroyed result would only destroy a single missile. Unless there is just something I missed as I don't really play Imperial Guard.

Lord_Mortis wrote:I sort of disagree with that. The whole vehicle is called a Manticore Missile Launcher, but the actual weapons are Storm Eagle rockets, not a Storm Eagle Rocket Launcher. Similarly to how a Vendetta can have individual Hellfury missiles and Stormravens can have bloodstrike missiles. A weapon destroyed result isn't going to destroy all remaining missiles on the Vendetta or Stormraven, so I would think that a weapon destroyed result would only destroy a single missile. Unless there is just something I missed as I don't really play Imperial Guard.

It has one weapon called "Storm Eagle Rockets" which can fire 4 times. It does NOT have 4 weapons called "Storm Eagle Rocket" which can fire once.

The reason a WD doesn't nuke all the one shot weapons on a Valk or Raven is because they DO have multiple one shot weapons, which is not what the Manticore has (it has one four shot weapon).

The entry says it has a rack that carries four rockets, not a rack that can fire four times or a Storm Eagle rocket launcher that can fire four times. I don't see this being any different than a Vendetta that carries two missiles or a Stormraven that carries four. The rules say once the vehicle (the Manticore Rocket Launcher) has fired four times, then it is out of ammo.

I can see your point if it said the weapon was called a "Storm Eagle Rocket Launcher" that could only fire four times, but it specifically says it has four rockets and that once the MML (the vehicle) has fired four times, and not simply the weapon, then it is out of rockets.

Lord_Mortis wrote:The entry says it has a rack that carries four rockets, not a rack that can fire four times or a Storm Eagle rocket launcher that can fire four times. I don't see this being any different than a Vendetta that carries two missiles or a Stormraven that carries four. The rules say once the vehicle (the Manticore Rocket Launcher) has fired four times, then it is out of ammo.

I can see your point if it said the weapon was called a Storm Eagle Rocket Launcher" that could only fire four times, but it specifically says it has four rockets and that once the MML (the vehicle) has fired four times, and not simply the weapon, then it is out of rockets.

You have quoted Fluff there. The bit about a Rack of Four Rockets is Fluff, not rules.

Look at the Army List, it clearly has ONE entry, Storm Eagle Rockets. If it were 4 weapons, it would say 4 Storm Eagle Rockets.

As it is, it's one Weapon with a Special Rule limiting it to firing 4 times.

Or do I have to spend the time typing it all out and quoting it to prove it to you?

Gwar wrote:You have quoted Fluff there. The bit about a Rack of Four Rockets is Fluff, not rules.

It is listed in the special rules called Limited Ammunition that says it carries 4 rockets and that you have to make a note each time a rocket is fired.

Look at the Army List, it clearly has ONE entry, Storm Eagle Rockets. If it were 4 weapons, it would say 4 Storm Eagle Rockets.

Chalk it up to bad writing. The Valkyrie entry doesn't say how many missiles it carries, but the Army list entry for it does. Same with the Stormraven. However, we know how many rockets the MML carries because it is spelled out in the special rules on page 54 telling us to keep track of how many rockets the MML has fired and once it has fired it's cargo of four it is out of ammo. The entire vehicle is the actual rocket launcher that carries 4 rockets that are called Storm Eagle rockets and each rocket can only be fired once. But just because the number of rockets isn't listed in the Army List doesn't mean that the number of rockets the vehicle carries isn't in the rules. Again there is a big difference between a "Storm Eagle Rocket Launcher" that can fire only four times and a a MML that can fire four Storm Eagle rockets. I suppose they could have listed "4 Storm Eagle Rockets" in the army list but maybe they thought that would be redundant since they already established in the rules how many it carried. But I'm not a mind reader....

We will just have to disagree on this I guess.

Going to have to agree with Gwar. Every army list entry in the IG codex indicates under the Wargear section how many of each weapon the vehicles happen to have. If Cruddace made a point to type in the number or spell out how many in the Army list for every other entry but the Manticore then I imagine it would have been in the errata and thus fixed, since it's not, then I can only agree with Gwar that it's a single weapon because the Wargear section for the Manticore indicates that it's a single weapon.

Lord_Mortis wrote:

Gwar wrote:You have quoted Fluff there. The bit about a Rack of Four Rockets is Fluff, not rules.

It is listed in the special rules called Limited Ammunition that says it carries 4 rockets and that you have to make a note each time a rocket is fired.

Yes it does. But that has nothing to do with a weapon destroyed result. There is only one weapon.

Look at the Army List, it clearly has ONE entry, Storm Eagle Rockets. If it were 4 weapons, it would say 4 Storm Eagle Rockets.

Chalk it up to bad writing. The Valkyrie entry doesn't say how many missiles it carries, but the Army list entry for it does. Same with the Stormraven. However, we know how many rockets the MML carries because it is spelled out in the special rules on page 54 telling us to keep track of how many rockets the MML has fired and once it has fired it's cargo of four it is out of ammo. The entire vehicle is the actual rocket launcher that carries 4 rockets that are called Storm Eagle rockets and each rocket can only be fired once. But just because the number of rockets isn't listed in the Army List doesn't mean that the number of rockets the vehicle carries isn't in the rules. Again there is a big difference between a "Storm Eagle Rocket Launcher" that can fire only four times and a a MML that can fire four Storm Eagle rockets. I suppose they could have listed "4 Storm Eagle Rockets" in the army list but maybe they thought that would be redundant since they already established in the rules how many it carried. But I'm not a mind reader....

Ah, I see. When you think it's bad writing, you can ignore the rules.

I was unaware of this!

I think it is bad writing. Check out the forgeworld apoc books. They clearly list 4 rockets rather than "storm eagle rockets". I agree that as it's written in the codex it is one weapon, little silly though.

Crablezworth wrote:I think it is bad writing. Check out the forgeworld apoc books. They clearly list 4 rockets rather than "storm eagle rockets". I agree that as it's written in the codex it is one weapon, little slowed though.

And I'd love to use the FW Trygon's rules, instead of the inferior ones from the new Tyranid Codex, at least so far as the after-arrival tunnel is concerned.

Crablezworth wrote:I think it is bad writing. Check out the forgeworld apoc books. They clearly list 4 rockets rather than "storm eagle rockets". I agree that as it's written in the codex it is one weapon, little silly though.

It's also silly that Space Wolves aren't Toughness 11 with 2+ Feel No Pain.

I'll let you have your four WD results if you let me have my T11 SW. Deal?

The fact of the matter is, it's one weapon. End of Discussion. Constant appeals to authority about how it's "Crap Writing" doesn't change it.

But Gwar, most "discussions" here are propogated this way. "I want to read it or interpret it this way so thats RAW and you are silly" seems to be the rule of YMDC these days.

yeah i have to agree w/ Gwar! it one weapon because its listed as one weapon. There really isn't left up to interpretation, under its wargear it lists: Storm Eagle Rockets, Heavy Bolter, Searchlight, Smoke Launchers; thusly it has 2 weapons, the hbolter and the rocket rack.

If you destroy the rack, what are the rockets firing from? If Cruddace had added the word four in front of the 'storm eagle rockets' then there would be no problem.

Norsehawk wrote:If you destroy the rack, what are the rockets firing from? If Cruddace had added the word four in front of the 'storm eagle rockets' then there would be no problem.

if the rack was destoryed it couldn't fire the rockets. more importantly its not "4" storm eagle rockets; its 1 weapon, the storm eagle rocket which can be fired 4 times

I have to agree with Gwar and the other 1 WD guys on this one. Even as a fluff player (which doesn't mean I ignore the rules, I just interpret them from a fluff perspective) it makes sense that on WD result would take out the whole launcher.

Think of it this way. A Chaos Predator makes a hit, and the hit impacts on one of the Storm Eagles. It makes sense to assume that the detonation of the shell combined with any secondary explosions from the missile would either: a) take out the rest of the missile battery, or b) cause enough damage to the launcher system that the other missiles can't fire.

If you look at tabletop 40k as a simulation of a land battle in the setting...it makes more sense that one WD result would be necessary to detooth a Manticore than four.

Joetaco wrote:yeah i have to agree w/ Gwar! it one weapon because its listed as one weapon. There really isn't left up to interpretation, under its wargear it lists: Storm Eagle Rockets, Heavy Bolter, Searchlight, Smoke Launchers; thusly it has 2 weapons, the hbolter and the rocket rack.

It is listed as having "Storm Eagle Rockets." Plural. How many does it have? Four per page 54.

Now a SM Predator has the option of taking "side sponsons with heavy bolters....lascannons..." (C:SM, C:SW, and C:BA) Sponsons being plural. Are you saying that because it doesn't specify exactly how many side sponsons a Predator may take, (in the same way it doesn't list how many storm eagle rockets there are) that both sponsons count as one weapon, and therefore a single weapon destroyed result will take out both sponsons? (And there apparently is no limit on the number of sponsons a Predator may have on the sides.) Notice that for Leman Russ battle tanks it says they may take a "pair of sponsons."

Just checking to see if this is being consistently applied across all the 40K books. ("This" being that a single weapon destroyed result will take out all the storm eagle rockets as well as all the side sponsons on Predators or any other vehicles where a specific number is not listed in the army list.)

Lord_Mortis wrote:Just checking to see if this is being consistently applied across all the 40K books. ("This" being that a single weapon destroyed result will take out all the storm eagle rockets as well as all the side sponsons on Predators or any other vehicles where a specific number is not listed in the army list.)

Except that you have Two Heavy Bolter Sponsons and ONE Weapon called Storm Eagle Rockets.

Gwar! wrote:

Lord_Mortis wrote:Just checking to see if this is being consistently applied across all the 40K books. ("This" being that a single weapon destroyed result will take out all the storm eagle rockets as well as all the side sponsons on Predators or any other vehicles where a specific number is not listed in the army list.)

Except that you have Two Heavy Bolter Sponsons and ONE Weapon called Storm Eagle Rockets.

Did you read what I wrote? There is no specific number of sponsons listed. Just "side sponsons." Plural. So I could apparently have 2+ sponsons, which apparently count as a single weapon choice. Just like "rockets" are listed in the plural with no number in front of them.

The army list entry for LRBT specifically says a "pair" of sponsons which means they have 2 seperate sponsons. No such "pair" is listed in any of the 5th edition SM books.

So You would let me have 95 heavy Bolters on my Predator?

And they call me names...

It says side sponsons, how many sides does a Predator have?

So, as I said before, you can have your 4 Weapons, If I can have 95 Heavy Bolters!

So the questions seem to be: Do we count the Storm Eagle rockets as one weapon system or multiple weapons? If you count it as one then a single weapon destroyed that kills all of the missles but then it CAN be repaired by a tech priest, otherwise each missle is destroyed individually but they can't be repaired.

I would agree with Gwar! on this because I never thought of the missles themselves as being destroyed, just the launching mechanisms or targeting system and such. This is the same for the sponsoons, the weapon itself is fine but the vehicle is no longer capapble of using it for one reason or another.

Gwar! wrote:It says side sponsons, how many sides does a Predator have?

Notice there is no limit on those side sponsons. Again, the LRBT specifically says a "pair." Apparently you can model your Predators with as many sponsons as you can fit on the sides. Even the Baneblade lists "two sponsons...." and then gives the option of adding "two extra sponsons (for a total of two sponsons per side!)" And it also lists exactly how many lascannons are contained within each sponson. So yeah, according to C:SM, you could have as many sponsons as you could fit on the sides, packed with however many heavy bolters you could model into each sponson. But since all the sponsons are just one weapons choice, since it doesn't specify, then one weapon destroyed result would take out all the sponsons and whatever weapons they contained.

Oh, and technically a Predator has four sides (front side, right side, left side, back side). Just saying.

Gwar! wrote:It's a Single Weapon that can fire 4 times, not 4 weapons that can fire once.

^This
It's pretty obvious from the profile and army list that it's a single entry and a single weapon. The fact that it holds 4 rockets doesn't make it 4 weapons.

I agree with Gwar. Ignore the troll, he is obviously trolling.

G

I agree that it counts as one weapon system, having 4 seperate STR 10 weapons on the vehicle would be a huge advantage. A weapon destroyed result would sort of offset that advantage by reducing the manticore to a brick. But then again you could just keep a techpreist close.

As much as it gauls me to say it, it is 1 weapon system - the way to keep your rockets useful is to stay out of range, or just nuke the enemy on the first turn but, yeah, 1WD result gives you a brick.

Lord_Mortis wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It says side sponsons, how many sides does a Predator have?

Notice there is no limit on those side sponsons. Again, the LRBT specifically says a "pair." Apparently you can model your Predators with as many sponsons as you can fit on the sides. Even the Baneblade lists "two sponsons...." and then gives the option of adding "two extra sponsons (for a total of two sponsons per side!)" And it also lists exactly how many lascannons are contained within each sponson. So yeah, according to C:SM, you could have as many sponsons as you could fit on the sides, packed with however many heavy bolters you could model into each sponson. But since all the sponsons are just one weapons choice, since it doesn't specify, then one weapon destroyed result would take out all the sponsons and whatever weapons they contained.

Oh, and technically a Predator has four sides (front side, right side, left side, back side). Just saying.

There's a certain level of common sense that goes along with this game, and when you lack it, you look like a total douche.