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This used to be a popular meta-laming strat for some 'Crons players I used to roll with. I personally thought it was rather shameful and needed a fix. Mind this is when I was young and foolish enough to beleive that GW would give us a new 'dex for 4th.

Essentially, you have a monolith in reserves. You deploy it via it's own special deepstrike. A mono's deepstrike is special in that:

page 21, Necron codex wrote:
"...Because of the sheer mass of the monolith, it is not destroyed if there are enemy (authentic typo!) within 1'' when it arrives. Instead move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the monolith."

Firstly, the monolith doesn't suffer a mishap, as the models are moved before it is placed. Secondly, this results in some serious shenanigans.

It lets the necron player unspawn enemy models.

Rules:
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A) RAW, if a model isn't on the playing surface, nor in the reserves, than it's either been destroyed or is not part of the game. The positive inverse of this is stated as a bi-conditional in the BRB, and thus the inverse is true as it is an if and only if statement. Example: Your Tau Manta is neither deployed on the playing surface, nor in reserves, and thus has no bearing on the game.

B) RAW, models cannot move off of the board unless a special rule clearly says so. (See BRB eratta.) Example: You can't move your kroot off the side of the world, no matter how much you hate them.

C) RAW, the models in collision with the monolith are moved the minimum distance to make room for it. No provision is set that the model must remain on the playing surface, only that it be moved the absolute minimum distance to make room for it. Example: Monolith deep strikes into a pile of raging Kroot, scattering their unit.
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Necron player spots a group of broadside battle suits hiding in a corner of the map. The monolith deepstrikes almost directly atop them, forcing them to move the shortest distance to make room for the monolith (Rule C)... off the playing surface, where they can no longer be used in game (Rule A.) As the monolith rule specifically dictates that models are to be moved the shortest distance, without regards to position or whether or not they are a unit, Rule B is not violated, as Rule C clearly states that the models are to be moved the minimum distance.

These model's aren't technically destroyed, but they are sort of side-lined, having fallen off the face of the earth apparently. I'm also fairly certain that, if one did such a thing, you wouldn't get VPs for models "thrown off the world" in such a way.

Really? I've been here long enough to see some interesting rules interpretations, but really?

Anyway, I'm off to bed. Good luck with your position.

Neconilis wrote:Really? I've been here long enough to see some interesting rules interpretations, but really?

Anyway, I'm off to bed. Good luck with your position.

Trust me, this isn't my interpretation. I wouldn't use this under any circumstances. It would basically brand you as TFG for ever in your FLGS.

Ok... point C is where you lost me, the shortest distance would be to go towards that edge.

Lemme have a whack at this...

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RaW: If I fire this boltgun, it counts as AP 1!
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I'll go read the codex for the exact wording for it tomorrow... though I think whoever told you this BS'd you x1,000,000,000

there is one little l major rule you need to keep in mind, all moves must remain legal, unless there is a rule that make it legal. In the monolith DS rule it does not say models are removed or moved off table it just says minimum so the word "legal" must be inferred in this case. So the minimum distance is not 1" off table it the minimum "legal" distance away from the monolith. In short you jot fooled by friends.

Since moving off the table is expressly forbidden, this is not "moving". Some other mechanism would be required to get a model off the table.

Likewise, you could not use the monolith to jam a model into impassable terrain from which it could never escape.

Yup, this:

Nachturnus wrote:C) RAW, the models in collision with the monolith are moved the minimum distance to make room for it. No provision is set that the model must remain on the playing surface, only that it be moved the absolute minimum distance to make room for it. Example: Monolith deep strikes into a pile of raging Kroot, scattering their unit.

...is where it comes unglued.

Models are forbidden from moving off the table. The only way you can get around that is if a rule specifically over-rides this prohibition for a specific situation.

Since the Monolith's rules don't say that models may be moved off the table, the normal rules apply. So if the choice is a short distance off the table or a longer distance in the other direction, the shortest distance for the unit to move to be out of the way is the other way. They can't move off the table.

Nachturnus wrote: if one did such a thing, you wouldn't get VPs for models "thrown off the world" in such a way.

If one did such a thing, he would instead get a broken nose for rulebook "thrown at his face."

What I mean is, its a non-issue for me because if someone tried that I would just tell him off and find someone else to play against.

Not to mention you can't intentionally place the monolith within 1" away of the enemy models and will scatter a minimum of 2" if your roll scatters, I would say this is a very very stupid strategy to use (if it worked anyway, which it wouldn't as others have stated) because it is a huge gamble to play if the lith scattered off table. There goes your heavy support.

Kevin949 wrote:Not to mention you can't intentionally place the monolith within 1" away of the enemy models and will scatter a minimum of 2" if your roll scatters, I would say this is a very very stupid strategy to use (if it worked anyway, which it wouldn't as others have stated) because it is a huge gamble to play if the lith scattered off table. There goes your heavy support.

it can land within 1" of an enemy, where did you get that?

Klawz wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Not to mention you can't intentionally place the monolith within 1" away of the enemy models and will scatter a minimum of 2" if your roll scatters, I would say this is a very very stupid strategy to use (if it worked anyway, which it wouldn't as others have stated) because it is a huge gamble to play if the lith scattered off table. There goes your heavy support.

it can land within 1" of an enemy, where did you get that?

land, yes. Be placed initially, no. Please note my use of the word "intentionally" meaning the monolith must scatter onto the enemies for them to be moved out of the way.

You can deep strike anywhere you feel like, but will suffer a mishap unless you have a rule avoiding it.

forkbanger wrote:You can deep strike anywhere you feel like, but will suffer a mishap unless you have a rule avoiding it.

Well, if you can balance the monolith on your enemies models while you roll for scatter then go right ahead, but I doubt anyone will let you do that as I believe it is against the rules, even with a modifier allowing the vehicle to move others out of the way when it arrives. Just saying in the time I've been playing necrons I've never been allowed to intentionally land on an enemies unit. Near them, yes. Scatter on them, yes. Place the DS monolith on an enemy unit before rolling scatter, no.

Things in support of deep striking anywhere-
Spore mines (old Tyranid codex)
Mawloc (current Tyranid codex)
Deep strike rules (place a model anywhere)

Things opposed to deep striking anywhere-
Use of 'place' as a movement restriction while scattering freely.

Bonus FAQ option

GW FAQ wrote:Q: Can a Mawloc choose to Deep Strike onto a point occupied by an enemy model on purpose in order to use the Terror from the Deep special rule?
A: Yes.

Note that the Mawloc has no special rule allowing this, only an alternative to suffering a mishap.

See also- every Mawloc thread for the past six months.

[note] One Codex FAQ has nothing to do with another Codex.

I agree that you were taken advantage of by this friend of yours. Just thought I would put my two cents in.

Well, actually op is incorrect.

The monoliths special rule means it is not destroyed by landing on or within 1" of enemy units.

Landing on enemy units no longer destroys you unless you roll destroyed on a mishap table. It was in older editions that landing on a unit = dead.

So the only way for the mono rule to activate is to deepstrike on top of a unit, suffer a mishap and roll destroyed, at which point youll shove the guys out of the way and land safely, delayed and misplaced applying as normal.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:[note] One Codex FAQ has nothing to do with another Codex.

First codex FAQ on the GW page is Chaos Space Marines, and the first entry-

Q. If a Sorcerer in Terminator armour with a psychic power that works at the beginning of the turn (e.g. Warptime) is deep striking, what takes place first, teleporting in or psychic powers? Or does the owner decide ont he order?

A. The psychic power is used 'at the beginning of the movement turn', while the unit deep strikes in the Movement phase, so a deep striking model cannot use Warptime or similar powers in the turn they deep strike.

Since this differentiation between start of turn and start of movement phase only applies to Chaos Space Marines, my Tervigons will be sure to spawn gaunts and use Dominion on turns they enter play from reserve.

What's next? The Eldar FAQ, which says that units will immediately regroup if they fall back into the Avatar's Fearless aura. No other Fearless aura or effect will have this effect, as they are not the Avatar. After that, let's see... Jaws of the World Wolf has a hairline thin line. Luckily, that doesn't apply to Blood Angels and Blood Lance. And only Codex Space Marines suffer badly in terms of victory points from combat squadding. Individual chapters like Blood Angels and Space Wolves are fine.

Alternatively only individual wargear, character and ability entries for an army apply to that army, while the broader concepts apply to all armies.

kill dem stunties wrote:Well, actually op is incorrect.

The monoliths special rule means it is not destroyed by landing on or within 1" of enemy units.

Landing on enemy units no longer destroys you unless you roll destroyed on a mishap table. It was in older editions that landing on a unit = dead.

So the only way for the mono rule to activate is to deepstrike on top of a unit, suffer a mishap and roll destroyed, at which point youll shove the guys out of the way and land safely, delayed and misplaced applying as normal.

I've never ever seen the rule played that way, mostly because it's not actually logical progression.

The condition for units being moved is not the monolith being destroyed, the condition for units being moved is that there are units within 1'' of the monolith's hull when it arrives. The rule actually makes it physically impossible for monoliths to have mishaps from hitting enemy units, beacuse the rule clearly states that the models are to be moved out of the way to make room for the monolith as it arrives. This means that the mishap condition never happens. Technically it can still mishap from hitting terrain features, going off the board, or striking onto friendlies.

As to the mono-striking, I've never allowed for somone to put that one over me, it was something I was told by a local big necron player, who would use it to force models off the board. It was a favorite way for him to get rid of bassalisks and things that stay back, close to the board edge.

I imagine one could still use the rule to slight advantage, forcing models into difficult and dangerous terrain.

Nachturnus wrote:The condition for units being moved is not the monolith being destroyed, the condition for units being moved is that there are units within 1'' of the monolith's hull when it arrives.

Sorry, Kill dem is technically correct on this. By the rules the monolith's rule only comes into play if it were to be destroyed. If it was being placed by the enemy (according to normal deepstriking rules) it wouldn't be destroyed and so the rule doesn't trigger.

That said, the reading of the rule suggests that, because the dex is using the old mishaps, the effect is triggered if the monolith were about to mishap. If you want to play this way, however, it is a house rule and you will need a willing opponent (This is the way I normally play).

To repeat Insaniak, and others, the enemy moves must be legal and so you can't force basilisks off the table. The mawloc has a rule that says if they can't move they are destroyed but if they can legally move in any direction (even to the other side of the 'lith) to survive they will do so.

Nachturnus wrote:As to the mono-striking, I've never allowed for somone to put that one over me, it was something I was told by a local big necron player, who would use it to force models off the board. It was a favorite way for him to get rid of bassalisks and things that stay back, close to the board edge.

There's no way to push, shove, drag, force or move a model off the table, barring special rules (like Deathleaper's ability to return to reserves) or falling back. The Monolith does not allow you to do so, in the same way it doesn't allow you to push models into impassable terrain.

Soup and a roll wrote:

Nachturnus wrote:The condition for units being moved is not the monolith being destroyed, the condition for units being moved is that there are units within 1'' of the monolith's hull when it arrives.

Sorry, Kill dem is technically correct on this. By the rules the monolith's rule only comes into play if it were to be destroyed. If it was being placed by the enemy (according to normal deepstriking rules) it wouldn't be destroyed and so the rule doesn't trigger.

That said, the reading of the rule suggests that, because the dex is using the old mishaps, the effect is triggered if the monolith were about to mishap. If you want to play this way, however, it is a house rule and you will need a willing opponent (This is the way I normally play).

There was another thread about this one time. I'm pretty sure that the consensus was that the monolith did not suffer a mishap.

Logical progression:

1)In order for a model to mishap by striking onto another model, the model must deepstrike onto another model.

2) The monloth's special rule declares that instead of striking onto the other model and then being destroyed, all colliding models are moved to make room for it when it appears.

This means that it never suffers a mishap, because instead models are moved out of the way when it appears if it were to strike onto another model. Being destroyed is not a conditional of the ability. Being destroyed is a possible result of the conditoinal, which is striking onto another model.

forkbanger wrote:Things in support of deep striking anywhere-
Spore mines (old Tyranid codex)
Mawloc (current Tyranid codex)
Deep strike rules (place a model anywhere)

Has no bearing on this at all as spore mines aren't monoliths
That is actually a special attack that uses the deep strike rules, similar to the necron lords veil using the deep strike rule for movement instead of normal movement.
I believe there is more to this phrasing then you are saying but I don't have my book on me at the moment.

@Nachturnus: Like I said, I personally agree with this interpretation of the rules. Another interpretation is that the second sentence of the rule ("Instead move..." etc) refers to the "destroyed" condition of the first sentence rather than the "within 1 inch"

@ Forkbanger: One codex faq has no relation to others, but when it is discussing how the main rules are interpreted, albeit using specific examples, it gives insight on how GW interprets these rules. The Mawloc, for example, has no special rules that allows it to be placed on an enemy- it just has different results to normal.

Kevin949 wrote:

forkbanger wrote:Things in support of deep striking anywhere-
Spore mines (old Tyranid codex)
Mawloc (current Tyranid codex)
Deep strike rules (place a model anywhere)

Has no bearing on this at all as spore mines aren't monoliths
That is actually a special attack that uses the deep strike rules, similar to the necron lords veil using the deep strike rule for movement instead of normal movement.
I believe there is more to this phrasing then you are saying but I don't have my book on me at the moment.

Wow, that's ugly.

Spore mines are not monoliths, but had no special provision to deep strike onto other units. They could anyway.
Mawlocs do not have a special attack that uses deep strike rules, they have the deep strike rule and a second rule that takes effect instead of a mishap for landing on another model. Again, no provision to deep strike onto units but they can do so anyway.
And directly from the Deep Strike rules, "First place one model fromt he unit anywhere ont he table in the position you would like the unit to arrive, and roll the scatter dice."

The usual argument goes place blahblah terrain rules on p14 blahblah model moves by scatter blahblah movement restrictions blahblah can't ever mishap.

All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again.

Soup and a roll wrote:One codex faq has no relation to others, but when it is discussing how the main rules are interpreted, albeit using specific examples, it gives insight on how GW interprets these rules. The Mawloc, for example, has no special rules that allows it to be placed on an enemy- it just has different results to normal.

Pretty sure I said this, right about here-

forkbanger wrote:Alternatively only individual wargear, character and ability entries for an army apply to that army, while the broader concepts apply to all armies.

-and the targetting of deep strikers is a general concept, not anything army or model specific.

I'm not even sure what people are arguing about at this point, or at least how it pertains to the primary argument.

Models can be placed for deepstrike anywhere they want. You may, intentionally, deepstrike your forces into impassable terrain, if you really really want to. The only restriction for deepstrike placement is that you have to be able to put a large blast template over the area you want the models to show up in.

Ha, sorry forkbanger! I meant to say that to Kevin 949. Talk about preaching to the choir...

Nachturnus wrote:I'm not even sure what people are arguing about at this point

1) You can't move models off the table and destroy them with a monolith.

2) The special rules regarding moving enemy models when a monolith DSs within 1" of, or on top of, an enemy, intentionally or otherwise, can be interpreted in a number of ways.

Soup and a roll wrote:
1) You can't move models off the table and destroy them with a monolith.

Soup and a roll wrote:
2) The special rules regarding moving enemy models when a monolith DSs within 1" of, or on top of, an enemy, intentionally or otherwise, can be interpreted in a number of ways.

Yeah. That I understood. Why this has anything to do with sporemines is what threw me.

kevin949 opened up an old can of worms by starting the argument that you can't intentionally place a deep striking model on an enemy model. This became an issue with the advent of 'DS attacks' like the monolith, sporemines and the mawloc. Sporemines were specifically FAQed to allow DS onto another unit. The fact that GW allows this, without them having rules specifically allowing it, gives precedence to the argument that any model can do so, if you so desire.

I think that, tangents aside, the thread has covered why most of your original thread, while creative, doesn't really work.

No, actually. I am correct.

Where does it say you dont suffer a mishap? The answer is: nowhere.

All the rule does is make it so that you are not destroyed if you land on/near infantry.

Too bad that's a 3rd edition relic that no longer applies, we now roll on the mishap table in those instances.

So yes you aren't destroyed if you land on enemy infantry, but the only way to be destroyed by landing on/within 1" of enemy infantry is to roll a destroyed result on the mishap table, delayed and misplaced apply as normal.

I was just pointing out that not everybody plays it that way, 'correct' or not.