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HQ Shas'el w/Plas, AFB, Pos Relay, HW-MT, HW-TL, HW-DC w/2 sd....145

HQ Shas'el w/Plas, CIB, MT, HW-TL, HW-DC w/2sd............125

Elite 2xShas'ui w/TL-MP, Targ Array...........................106

Elite 2xShas'ui w/TL-MP, Targ Array...........................106

Elite 2XShas'ui w/TL-MP, Targ Array.................................106


Troop FW 8 Shas'la + 1 Shas'ui w/BK.................................105

Troop FW 8 Shas'la + 1 Shas'ui w/BK.................................105

Troop FW 8 Shas'la + 1 Shas'ui w/BK+ Warfish.........................225


FA 6PF + Warfish...................................192

FA Vespid 8 Stingwing+1 Strain leader.....150

FA Vespid 8 Stingwing+1 Strain leader.....150

HS Railhead............................................170

HS 2 x Broadsides A.S.S..........................160

HS 2 x Broadsides A.S.S..........................160


Still has 15pts to spend

This is the first draft of a concept list that takes deployment flexibilty to the fullest extent that I am comfortable with. This list has not been played nor am I claiming it to be great.
I am just exploring a concept.

My plans on how to use this list will vary from opponent to opponent. Even though the list contains a Positional relay it isn't really a ninja list. Instead this list is designed to flow seemlessly between offensive and defensive postures and a variety of tactics. My aim is for a list that you can troop-suit your commanders together or seperately, make use of effective tactical reserves, deploy as a strong castle or as a mobility based strike force.

I started this list today after thinking about what a returning player had considered and dropped. He was looking at using the Vespids as the clean-up after cracking open transports. I thought back to when I played around with joining a commander with the Vespids as a deep-strike unit and started from where I had left the list several years ago. The list is in its first draft of tuning up and want to see what you guys think and can you spot the tricks that this list might have up its sleeve.

C&C welcome

Your points are out on the crisis teams those squads should be 106 points each.

Why a multitraker on the deathrain 'El he's only got 1 weapon system?

Why hasn't the other 'El got a targetting array?

You have very few marker lights and very few targetting arrays meaning your fire power will largely miss. Also against smoked Rhinos you're screwed as it takes on average 4-5 Railgun HITS to take out a smoked Rhino and with MLs to take away cover saves you'll never do any damage.

Vespids are never points effective FWs are going to do more damage than vespids even against Marines point for point from within 12"! Until they make Vespids Assault 2 they will never be a good choice.

Though the list does seem to have good deployment options. The only Tau option it misses is the Kroot wrap, which you could easily add by dumping the footslogging FW squad. I think a kroot squad would do more for you than the footslogging Fire warriors. Or you could get the FWs a transport so they fit with the rest of your army.

@Flingit-

Caught it now thanks

Thanks for catching the multitracker, that was an artifact left over from a different equipment load out. Have corrected it and and tweaked the weapons. Now have about 15 pts left over to play with.

What are you talking about with the Targeting arrays? Only non-bs4 suits that don't have them are the broadsides. ??? Have enough markerlights for the broadsides and I shouldn't be shooting at Rhinos with my railguns. ???

Incorrect, at 12" the Vespids kill one additional marine than an equal points of FW when killing MEQ at 12" or less. FW are better GEQ killers in shooting but the vespids are superior in HtH as a delaying screen. Also, the FW are infantry troops while Vespids are Jump-infantry Fast Attacks. Vespids shine as a surgical strike clean-up squad and I am toying with them as a counter punch team. In the current game it is not a matter of "if" but rather "when" your broadsides get assaulted. This means that units will be out of thier transports and vulnerable to the counterstriking Vespids.

I am still toying with an additional troop option, just haven't decided which way I want to go with this. Trying to decide if I only want to give the illusion of castles with screeners or if I want to sacrifice mobility for more durable screens. The difference would be Kroots as screeners or another squad of FW to play leap frog with the transports. This is a tough deciscion because Vespid and Kroot make a really good combination but the game currently has too many units that makes solid castling a negative by top of turn two. I'll think about it some more.


Thanks for the feed back and please keep it coming, later

HQ Shas'el w/Plas, CIB, Pos Relay, HW-MT, HW-TL, HW-DC w/2 sd....140

HQ Shas'el w/TL-FB, Targ Array, HW-TL, HW-DC w/2sd........113


Elite 2xShas'ui w/TL-MP, Flamer............................................94

Elite 2xShas'ui w/TL-MP, Flame.............................................94

Elite 2XShas'ui w/TL-FB, Targ Array.....................................106


Troop FW 8 Shas'la + 1 Shas'ui w/BK.................................105

Troop FW 8 Shas'la + 1 Shas'ui w/BK.................................105

Troop FW 8 Shas'la + 1 Shas'ui w/BK+ Warfish....................225


FA 6PF + Warfish...................................192

FA Vespid 8 Stingwing+1 Strain leader.....150

FA Vespid 8 Stingwing+1 Strain leader.....150

HS Ionhead............................................135

HS 2 x Broadsides A.S.S..........................160

HS 2 x Broadsides A.S.S..........................160


Still has 65pts to spend


Another verion of the list. I will do another one with the kroot in it soon. Am playing with the option of additional troop unit or Changing to two railheads or two Ionheads.

I am trying to maintain mobility and an effective level of fire power. Also looking at the Vespids as a clean-up unit after popping the transports and want to Try teaming them with a commander for a deepstriking unit that survives one turn and then splits for different objectives.

Will post more later.

What are you talking about with the Targeting arrays? Only non-bs4 suits that don't have them are the broadsides. ??? Have enough markerlights for the broadsides and I shouldn't be shooting at Rhinos with my railguns. ???

brain fail on my part, sorry. The point remains you're going to struggle aginst BA Rhino rush without more MLs to strip cover saves, I'd also prefer to see the Deathrains in larger units.

Incorrect, at 12" the Vespids kill one additional marine than an equal points of FW when killing MEQ at 12" or less.

Lets assume the marines are out of cover. The BS and Strength is the same. So the only difference is the save. Marines get no save against Vespids and a 3+ save against FWs meaning 3 times as many Marines per shot will die to the vespids.

For 32 points of Vespids you get 2 shots at 12" for 30 points of FW you get 6 shots at 12". Therefore 30 points of FW will do exactly the same amount of damage as 32 points of Vespids within 12" assuming the marines are dumb enough to stand out of cover. Put cover in there and the story gets a whole lot worse for the Vespids.

FW are better MEQ killers in shooting but the vespids are superior in HtH as a delaying screen.

Whilst Vespids are superior in HtH but still terrible at it. I don't see how they are a delaying screen. At 16 points a model they are not an efficient point spend on a meat shield otherwise they shoot charge, lose and allow the enemy to gain movement by consolidating... It's not like you can even march block using their mobility like in Fantasy.

Also, the FW are infantry troops while Vespids are Jump-infantry Fast Attacks. Vespids shine as a surgical strike clean-up squad and I am toying with them as a counter punch team. In the current game it is not a matter of "if" but rather "when" your broadsides get assaulted. This means that units will be out of thier transports and vulnerable to the counterstriking Vespids.

Yes mobility is their one advantage, but again with your lack of marker lights that counter strike will not be very impressive. As I've pointed out the same points in fire warriors would do just as much damage and have the advantage of being scoring.

I like the 2nd version of the list better I think the Ion Head fits better with 2 units of broadsides. Though personally I prefer my Deathrains with targetting arrays rather than flamers. With eth spare points I'd up one squad of deathrains to TAs and a squad of 3.

On the kroot thing I'm not convinced they'll work brilliantly in either list. But they will do more for you than footslogging FWs. I still don't get why you have a squad of footslogging fire warriors?

FlingitNow wrote:brain fail on my part, sorry. The point remains you're going to struggle aginst BA Rhino rush without more MLs to strip cover saves, I'd also prefer to see the Deathrains in larger units.

First, no problem. I didn't catch my math mistake, had it in my mind that the TL-MP were 20 as opposed to 18 for some reason.

Second, Don't think rhino rush is that bad for this list. Rhinos are not the threat but rather what is in them. As soon as the Passengers get out they will be toast.

Third, I haven't found the units of three to be points efficient. I like my crisis teams cheap and want to force my opponent to have to deal with too many targets.

FlingitNow wrote:Lets assume the marines are out of cover. The BS and Strength is the same. So the only difference is the save. Marines get no save against Vespids and a 3+ save against FWs meaning 3 times as many Marines per shot will die to the vespids.

For 32 points of Vespids you get 2 shots at 12" for 30 points of FW you get 6 shots at 12". Therefore 30 points of FW will do exactly the same amount of damage as 32 points of Vespids within 12" assuming the marines are dumb enough to stand out of cover. Put cover in there and the story gets a whole lot worse for the Vespids.

A)Thanks for correcting my math, You are correct in that their MEQ killing power is equal as long your opponent roll average for his armour saves. With the Vespids only inv saves apply.

B)The marines will be standing out in the open when they are assaulting so I find the coversave argument not applicable. I use Fusion Blasters contantly and have found that at 12' or less the only time I run into a coversave issue is when shooting at things that get a cover save from moving fast or have such as a natural ability and these units are not what you should be going after with your Vespids.

FlingitNow wrote:Whilst Vespids are superior in HtH but still terrible at it. I don't see how they are a delaying screen. At 16 points a model they are not an efficient point spend on a meat shield otherwise they shoot charge, lose and allow the enemy to gain movement by consolidating... It's not like you can even march block using their mobility like in Fantasy.

What you do with the Vespids is that you move out to intercept the assaulting units. You jump to the side or behind the unit and after shooting you assault to pull them back or off to the side.

The Vespids are better in assaults than people give them credit for. Yes they are handicapped by S 3 but I 5 and thier mobility usually lets them be the ones to assault which denies your opponents the assault bonus. You just have to assault with them only when the conditions are right and don't fool yourself into thinking that thay can assault Termies, genestealers, or large units. Example, against a MEQ units you want there to be only 4 or less in the unit when assaulting with 10 Vespid, against GEQ you can go for a 1:1 ratio. Against the aforementioned TEQ's and Genestealers just don't do it unless you think you can pull the enemy out of your way.

FlingitNow wrote:Yes mobility is their one advantage, but again with your lack of marker lights that counter strike will not be very impressive. As I've pointed out the same points in fire warriors would do just as much damage and have the advantage of being scoring.

1)I have a squad of markerlights

2)Markerlights are not necessary, only helpful. By turn 2 the enemy has already wasted his smoke so Markers can be dedicated towards uping bs on whatever is deemed the highest priority target.

3)Fire warriors cannot engage the enemy as a screen in an 18" threat circle.
a)FW move 6" and if enemy is in range they have to choose whether to shoot or move out to assault, unless you arm your FW with carbines which then makes them less effective than the Vespids in shooting.

b)Vespids can move 12" and assault 6". This means that the Vespids can move up to that unit just at the edge of assault range, shoot and have the choice of assaulting after the shooting phase. This ability to move up, cuts off the enemies next movement phase. This can give an extra turn before the gets to the castle in the corner.

FlingitNow wrote:I like the 2nd version of the list better I think the Ion Head fits better with 2 units of broadsides. Though personally I prefer my Deathrains with targetting arrays rather than flamers. With the spare points I'd up one squad of deathrains to TAs and a squad of 3.

On the kroot thing I'm not convinced they'll work brilliantly in either list. But they will do more for you than footslogging FWs. I still don't get why you have a squad of footslogging fire warriors?

1)Thanks for the feed ack on the lists

2)Not a fan of the large crisis team of MP's I feel that they are not point efficient. 4 S7 shots will usually do the trick and the added cost of trying to fit in target locks means taking a Shas'vre and other added costs. Also, I don't like the larger foot print of the 3 crisis suit team and how it affects JSJ.

3)The flamers are for when the enemy is close. At that point three missile hits are not going to do as much as 2 flame templates. Also the points being invested just to get an extra missile hit perturn just seems inefficient.

4)As to the Kroot vs Fire Warriors, I will have to try them both. I think that the Kroot may work better with the Vespids but I want to play leap-frog with the fire warriors in order to maintain VoF while moving. You see, I am not planning on having one unit foot slog but rather all of the Fire warrior units will cycle through a turn of walking and a turn of riding. This is a method of using one transport to move two units that is often refered to as leap-frogging.

I am thinking of usig this to start off with a screen in front of the broadsides but then making the castle disappear in a single turn as the army starts making use of its mobility.

Again, thanks for the C&C, please keep doing so. I want to really work the list and possible tactics over.

In my experience marines will sit in the Rhino until the turn to assault and will then probably consolidate into cover, almost all cover in my meta is area terrain in one form or another so they will be getting cover saves. So I just don't see Vespids as viable for the points. I know about their advantages but as I said I just feel points are better spent elsewhere.

With the prevailence of fast moving Heavy flamers I don't like the leap frog idea, and to be honest I'm not sure how it would really help you much.

I understand why you'd take flamers on Deathrains but I just prefer to take the TAs as I find they are more reliable. I have a question though as to what you fire at with your MPs because against AV10-12 I find that 4 shots is certainly not enough most of the time. 6 gives me a decent chance of taking out the transport in question (62% against AV10, still only 26% against AV12 assuming no smoke and Bs4 twin linked).

FlingitNow wrote:In my experience marines will sit in the Rhino until the turn to assault and will then probably consolidate into cover, almost all cover in my meta is area terrain in one form or another so they will be getting cover saves. So I just don't see Vespids as viable for the points. I know about their advantages but as I said I just feel points are better spent elsewhere.

With the prevailence of fast moving Heavy flamers I don't like the leap frog idea, and to be honest I'm not sure how it would really help you much.

I understand why you'd take flamers on Deathrains but I just prefer to take the TAs as I find they are more reliable. I have a question though as to what you fire at with your MPs because against AV10-12 I find that 4 shots is certainly not enough most of the time. 6 gives me a decent chance of taking out the transport in question (62% against AV10, still only 26% against AV12 assuming no smoke and Bs4 twin linked).

1)I understand your point here. I know the codex is 4th ed but even back then the Vespids weren't really a choice in comparison to the Piranha and pathfinders. I got the idea of Vespid-suiting where you keep the Commander at T 4 and able to Deepstrike while giving him more alblative wounds. On the next turn you split the squads or not depending upon the situation. This is just something I am wanting to try to see how it works under ther current rules. IIRC, Vespids could not deepstrike last edition.

2)The leap-frogging is a way of maintaining a combination of mobility and fire power. Consider it a minature version of what the necrons do. The devilfish travels about 8" a turn while providing a decent bit of mobile cover. The Heavy flamers are just something to watch out for during the first 2 turns, by turn 3 the Devilfish will begin to dash towards the objectives while the unit left outside stays put and shoots.
I admit that this is not a perfect tactic but none are. I like it as a compromise between full mech and gun-line as well as allowing me to use real world cover fire tactics. Doing this also helps me to keep my movement and positioning skill sharp.

3)My preference for running 2 suit teams has to do with the cost of running 3 suits teams. Teams of 3 means that I pay an extra 10 points for team leader + bonding knife and get a unit that is more vulnerable to blast weapons and less effective at using JSJ for complete cover. I also find that the Ionhead does a good job of stepping in to make up for any loss with its greater range.
As to why no targeting arrays on the units as they are? @ 4 shot each I will get 3 hits with twin-linking that costs an additional 6 point of 3 hits with Targeting arrays that cost an additional 10 points. When putting the TA on two twin-linked models I am paying 20points for an extra .6 hits. I'd rather spend the points on making the unit more flexible and less expensive.

Sorry it took me so long to get back on this.

Again this is an experiment in applying differing tactics. Right now, as the list sits I can Vespid-suit one commander for a deepstrike with a reasonable number of wounds, alternatively I can also use both commanders to troop-suit with the pathfinders to make them more durable with an average T4 and yet I could just deploy each one with a broadside team to use the Shield Drones as protection for the Broadsides. Most likly this will just be a fun semi-comp list that allows me to use realworld coverfire tactics on the table.

Thanks again for the input, and let me know if you have any other ideas or think I should focus on one specific unit for the commanders.