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Hi all,

Looking at what 2500 list I need to be working on tweaking. Here it is as it stands- I'm a little unhappy with the model count, but not sure where to make the changes.

Dwarf Lord, Great weapon, shield bearers, Rune of Resistance, Stone, Preservation, MR of Spite, Rune of the Furnace - 271 points
Runesmith, Shield, Rune of Stone, Spellbreaker x 2 - 127
Thane, BSB, Strollaz, Rune of Guarding - 175
Thane, Great Weapon, Rune of Stone, MR of Challenge - 99
Dragonslayer - 50
25 Dwarf warriors, shields, full command - 250
25 Dwarf warriors, shields, full command - 250
19 Longbeards, shields, full command, rune of determination, 2 x rune of sanctuary - 303
10 Rangers (warrior variety), veteran, musician, great weapons
15 Hammerers, shields, full command, MR of Grungni - 275
12 Slayers - 132
Grudgethrower, engineer, rune of accuracy, burning, and penetration - 150
Cannon, engineer, rune of forging -140
Organ Gun - 120
Gyrocopter - 140

This actually leaves 25 points spare, which I used to put MR of Kragg and Rune of Fire on my lord's weapon in the last game. Without that, the only magical attacks are on the two war machines, which is a potential problem. Alternatively, the 25 points could be used to trade out the shields for great weapons on one of the warrior blocks, though I haven't been too displeased with the warriors as they stand.

I struggled a good deal with the Dwarf Lord builds. The 7th edition unkillable build (MR of Steel, Stone, Resistance) was hurt by killing blow again becoming an issue. If preservation enters the mix, something has to go. A re-rollable 2+ is nice, but not as sweet as a 1+, and loses a little of what made MR of Steel so great. It's also possible that a ward save has become more critical now, given magic being what it is. Unfortunately, a tradeoff with the MR of Spite is that the MR of Challenge can't fit on the same talisman. Hard choices here...

Conversely, potions and spells might indicate super high strength attacks are more frequent, and so MR of Steel might be *more* important.

This list also plays a little with the magic resistance rules. The Dwarf Lord in the longbeards has a 2+ ward vs. magic, and the longbeards, if in range of Grungni will be at a 3+ ward to magic missiles. I'm uncertain whether this is really worth it though- most of the hyped scary spells don't actually allow saves, so there may be room for savings there.

I'm getting the feeling that the hammerers could really benefit from more models. I may drop the cheap thane (though I like him) and slide the MR of Challenge on to the runesmith.

So I'll be getting more games in for testing purposes, but am interested in opinions in the meantime.

Thanks for reading,

RZ

Overall I like this list.
I would try to get more guys in the hammers unit. I suggest picking either the slayers or rangers and adding their points to the hammers. For what it worth I would drop the unit of slayers and spend those points in the hammers. So few guys wont hang around long with the sheer number of attacks being thrown a turn.
Though I have found a slayer hero to be very useful for side/counter charges, he might not hang around as long now. Though he will almost always kill more the his 50pts.
I like your runes, maybe find a way to add spelleater.
My .02

I like the focus on infantry blocks. With the stat-line and points cost longbeards and warriors are just awesome. Have you considered retooling your rangers as quarrelers with shields? Great for drawing away enemy forces from the main battle and splitting up forces. And if they ignore them they have to put up with constant shooting from them. Plus with light armour, handweapon and shield and their stats they should hold their own against most enemies. Plus if in forests their automatically stubborn.

Personally I'm more of a fan of ironbreakers to hammerers. But their not without their uses I concede. Also not a big gyrocopter fan for this edition. I would use the points on another organ gun and use leftover points on more slayers.

Cool list overall. Artillery lines are just boring.

I would drop abit of the magic resistance everybody is using the whole unit takes a characteristic test any fails die with no saves. Overall if any1 does use magic missiles there usually not that strong and wont kill many hard dwarfs.

I would agree dropping the thane would be the best way to get extra hammerers as you said your not happy with the model count.

@Lexx: I have thought about taking the rangers as the quarreler version. I think it might be a good call, though they go from their current 125 points. It does add a nice extra dimension to them, though- one that allows them to threaten and annoy even if I don't want to put them in combat. I don't think they're stubborn in woods, though. Isn't that skirmishers? And w/respect to shields, they won't be able to make use of them except against shooting. New rules require you to use a great weapon if you have one.

I agree with the gyro in principle, but have found it to be kind of handy in practice. In my games so far, it's accounted for the enemy general twice (once running him down while he fled, twice by shredding the unit around him for a cannon or charge). I think I'll have to take the plunge and see what happens without it in the lineup though.

@Viney: I think you're probably right. I like my slayer models, and they've done well in a few battles, but they probably either need to be bigger or not there. Dragonslayer is hard to give up too, but I'll think about it.

@Benny: I agree. MR helps against magic missiles and some of the death spells. Against magic missiles, my defense always used to be simply having a lot of models, instead of runic support. And against the death assassination spells, my general already had a ward save. I'll fiddle with things, see what I can come up with.

Thanks for comments, all.

RZ

Nice. Yeah its always an option. Best of luck on your test fights.

Are the two blocks of warriors in there just to satisfy core requirements? I'm obviously no dwarf player, but I thought that the basic warriors were not too strong... also, I assume you're running them 5-wide. 25 seems like a good number for ranks, but I'm curious to see what ends up working for people. I know it will depend on opponents, but I imagine there will end up being a fairly common "sweet spot" in which you will usually retain your steadfast... at least at the end of the first combat or two!

no the basic dwarf warriors are real tough. T4 LD9 is pretty nice. i like the list as well and agree with the other on dropping one of the small units and making the other larger. it is also nice to see a non gunline list but i have a feeling there's a reason why people do it. its because thats where you can do the most damage with your army.

Okay, here's the tweaks to the list I plan on using today. I dropped the rune of the furnace from the Dwarf Lord, as well as both runes of sanctuary on the longbeards. Added to the 25 I had spare, I put 4 more hammerers in, and changed the longbeards' banner to a rune of battle.

I think the next thing will probably be to switch one of the warrior blocks to great weapons by dropping that rune of battle, but that's something of a modeling issue at the moment. I also think the shields are unnecessary on the hammerers, but my models are very clearly armed with them, so I'll have to figure something out down the line. I think bulking the hammerers, even by a little will pay off nicely.


Dwarf Lord, Great weapon, shield bearers, Rune of Resistance, Stone, Preservation, MR of Spite - 266 points
Runesmith, Shield, Rune of Stone, Spellbreaker x 2 - 127
Thane, BSB, Strollaz, Rune of Guarding - 175
Thane, Great Weapon, Rune of Stone, MR of Challenge - 99
Dragonslayer - 50
25 Dwarf warriors, shields, full command - 250
25 Dwarf warriors, shields, full command - 250
19 Longbeards, shields, full command, rune of battle - 278
10 Rangers (warrior variety), veteran, musician, great weapons - 125
19 Hammerers, shields, full command, MR of Grungni - 327
12 Slayers - 132
Grudgethrower, engineer, rune of accuracy, burning, and penetration - 150
Cannon, engineer, rune of forging -140
Organ Gun - 120
Gyrocopter - 140

You could loose the engineer from the cannon as forging should keep it working well and get another slayer or hammerer.

Other than that it looks a nice list and it seems to always work after reading most your battle reports.

when I played dwarfs it was always hard for me to stay away from the gun line. that being said I like the list it seems that it can take a solid pounding but against empire or another gun line what are you going to do?

How about Master rune of balance & 1 spellbreaker for the runesmith. I'm also not sure about the slayers. They seem awfully vulnerable, to... pretty much anything especially as they have only i2. I'd probably have extra cannon/grudge thrower instead but ymv.

@ Benny: You're right- cannon enginer may be a good place to cut some points. On the other hand, he does more than protect against misfires now. He helps in artillery duels (represents an extra wound) and makes grapeshot more accurate. Still, if I find myself searching for points, that may be where to go.

@Bigmeklover: Against enemy gunlines, Strollaz propels me forward, rangers harass from early on, and MR of Challenge will pull someone out. I actually played against lots of gunlines and bowlines in 7th, and while some of the details have changed, the principles remain the same.

@Chaoslord: I think I'm in agreement with you. I can't quite figure the slayers out. I think I'm at a suboptimal unit size, but don't want to cut anything to bulk them out. They've performed well in some battles (killing a giant, swinging a big combat with a flank charge), but it's tough to say. While everyone is focusing on progressively larger units, there does still seem to be a place for some extra smaller blocks. These can charge flanks to provide an extra +2 combat res (charging, flank) plus any casualties. Although I think your advice is sound, I'm going to keep running them a while longer to see how they play out.

Thanks to everyone for the input!

RZ

RZ, are you planning to attend 'Ard Boyz, and if so do you have a list in mind for it?

Also, are you taking this list to the 3-game tourney you mentioned you might have this weekend, or is it a different point level?

RiTides: I wasn't planning on 'Ard Boyz, though now that you mention it, I might look into giving it a whirl. I may well have missed registration, though. I did whip up a list to practice with against guys that wanted to try things out. It basically trades the runesmith for a runelord and anvil, and brings in a large unit of miners with full command and steam drill. It was pretty fun, but probably too small.

Looks like I won't get to the tournament this weekend, but I would have tried this list out. I did get a game today with a few pics. I tried writing it up, but it wasn't the most 'edge of the seat' battle, and didn't make great reading. Then I lost it when I accidentally rebooted my browser. I'll look at making a re-attack here...

Okay, latest changes as follows-

1) Swapped the Rune of Battle off of the Longbeards in exchange for a burning, magical great weapon for the lord. If my war-machines didn't drop regenerators or ethereals, I had no way of taking them down outside of static res. This gives me one more tool in the box to deal with those- not an efficient one, but I can't take the flaming banner, so this is what I've got to deal with.
2) I also shifted the rune of burning on to the cannon from the grudgethrower, though I may drop the runesmith's rune of stone for burning back on the grudgethrower. Combining war machine fire works well, but I figured the first flaming hit would be more useful on the more accurate of the war machines. The GT keeps scattering or misfiring at inopportune moments, leaving my other machines to deal with the regen.

List looks like this:

Dwarf Lord, Great weapon, shield bearers, Rune of Resistance, Stone, Preservation, MR of Spite, MR of Kragg the Grim, Rune of Fire - 291 points
Runesmith, Shield, Rune of Stone, Spellbreaker x 2 - 127
Thane, BSB, Strollaz, Rune of Guarding - 175
Thane, Great Weapon, Rune of Stone, MR of Challenge - 99
Dragonslayer - 50
25 Dwarf warriors, shields, full command - 250
25 Dwarf warriors, shields, full command - 250
19 Longbeards, shields, full command - 253
10 Rangers (warrior variety), veteran, musician, great weapons -125
19 Hammerers, shields, full command, MR of Grungni - 327
12 Slayers - 132
Grudgethrower, engineer, rune of accuracy and penetration - 150
Cannon, engineer, rune of forging and burning -140
Organ Gun - 120
Gyrocopter - 140

I ran it up against a Lizardman army today to try it out. I got off a little light because he was experimenting with other lores, so tried out fire, which wasn't so hot (har har). The list worked well, though. The lord was able to threaten the ethereal Slann, and even held on his own against a 30 strong saurus charge. Even the slayers got in on the action, with a dream matchup- in the flank of an Ancient Steg- 18 attacks swinging before the enemy (for once). It was great.

I know lots of folks are down on the gyro, but I was able to use it in conjunction with the MR of Challenge to force the Slann to charge away from the rest of his army, and get pinned until my general could wade over and dice him up. It's certainly lost effectiveness, but without an anvil, it really provides some move and maneuver that are simply otherwise unavailable.

seems like you had a very nice battle I have been trying out a battle dwarf list and i kinda lacked movement. Thought that my anvil would help me out there, but it seems like strollaz and a gyro have the same effect or am i wrong?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, my lord is pimped differently. I give him a gw, MRoKragg and 2x rune of fury which gives him 6 str 6 attacks. one challenge can take out your enemy hero/lord. Next to that he wears a rune of stone (forgot to mention the shieldbearers) so he has a 1+ AS, and that with a mr of spite so he has a 4+ WS as well. I kinda challenged gorbad ironclaw with him and i killed him in one turn at the cost of one wound

Im not really sold on they dwarf lord weapon i rarely come up against something ethreal and if i do i would just attack the unit and probably add more combat resolution that way, also its really not hard to avoid the dwarf lord if the player using the ethreal creature wants to.

You list is so finely tuned its really hard to try and give advise and you want to keep your gyro so tbh the list looks really nice.

Hows the dragon slayer just wondering if he does what hes supposed to do or is he something you might drop out?

So!

The list has been good to me, but it's certainly not optimal. (Catalyst... Today I got absolutely run over by an all Khorne warrior army- 2 large blocks of frenzied knights essentially did everything, with a little help from a shadow caster and some poorly chosen risks on my part.) It's time to figure out what I want to change for the list, so I can focus some painting efforts in worthwhile directions. I'm cutting it close, but still thinking of signing up for the Alamo GT, but the current iteration isn't going to hack it.

Right now I'm thinking of dropping one of the hand weapon & shield blocks and distributing those points across my other units. So 250 points to play with opens a few possibilities...

Thoughts right now include:

- Bumping the rangers to 20 or even 25 strong, and probably giving them a standard to keep my break point healthy (150-175 ish)
- Adding a rank to the remaining shield warriors (45-ish)
- Trading out one of the spellbreakers for a MR of Balance? Not really sold on this one, as I really like having the scroll equivalents.
- Alternately, go with a Spelleater?
- I could also put the rune of brotherhood on the thane to drop him in with the rangers, and mess with people via the MR of Challenge from a scout position.

The advantages here are that I don't need to drastically overhaul things, and painting requirements aren't too bad- along the lines of 20 models, a character, and finishing two war machines. Any other thoughts on what to change?

Chaos knights are my worst nightmare even 5 can cause so much pain to your big blocks, and with strength 3 its rare you kill any so they grind you down eventually.

The ranger idea is nice as then they can actually charge the big units instead of being more of a harrassing unit. I think master rune of balance is alot of points i would rather take 2 spellbreakers for the points.

Your main hitting units will be the longbeards/hammerers and rangers now so i would rather put the points in those with great weapons so you can always step up and get your full strength 6 attacks.

Organ gun is the best thing for killing knights you could throw in 1 and maybe still afford another 10 rangers.