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Razorback spam is very popular these days.

I'd like to conceive an alternative mech BA army based on AV 13 vehicles.
Anti-tank guns will have a harder time to take them down than those paper-thin Razorbacks.
Even Lootas or Rifleman Dreads will only be able to glance them while heavy bolters are totally useless.

I'd take 2 or 3 Librarian Furioso Dreadnoughts with wings and shields.
Shields can keep the armoured wall longer alive and wings make them much faster if necessary.
I'd make the psychic tests first to see whether the Dreads can fly and then I'd move the tanks, not vice versa.

Moreover, I'd consider 2 or 3 Baal Predators. Here the choice is between flamestorm or assault cannon.
Assault cannons are anti-infantry and anti-light tank while the flamestorm cannons are anti-MEQ.

Finally, I'd add 2 or 3 Predators. Here there are three configurations: Dakka (autocannon, heavy bolter), mixed (tl lascannon, heavy bolters), and heavy (autocannon, lascannons).

This leaves me with the choices of HQ and troops.
The army is light on troops so far and therefore I'd be willing to consider Assault squads in Rhinos (melta, inferno pistol).

A cheap HQ is mandatory here. Librarian with lance and shield or a Reclusiarch.


There are many choices here. What do you think?

A lot depends on what points you are thinking of...

Well, larger point levels (1750 - 2000) since the AV13 vehicles are pretty expensive.

1 Librarian (Shield, Lance, Wings) - 125
Honour Guard (Jump Packs, Power Fist, Meltagun x2, Flamer) - 205
2 Librarian Furioso Dreadnoughts (Wings, Shield) - 340
2 Assault Squads (in Rhinos w/Meltagun x2) - 450
2 Baal Predators (with HB Sponsons) - 290
2 TL Lascannon Predators (with HB sponsons) - 290
Total: 1700 pts.

The idea is to keep the army together and get into midfield position.
The Predators stay in the back to pick off vehicles and provide heavy-bolter fire.
The Furiosos give 5+ cover saves to the vehicles.
The Rhino squads and the Librarian (lance) melt down tanks that come close.
When enemy units come close, the Furiosos, Assault units, and the Honour Guard will take them on, supported by heavy bolters and assault cannons.

Maybe something like this at 2k points:

Librarian: Jump Pack, Blood Lance, Unleash Rage
2x Sanguinary Priest: Jump Pack, Infernus Pistol
Libby Dread: Shield, Wings
Libby Dread: Blood Lance, Shield, Drop Pod
2x Assault Squad: 2x Melta, Powerfist
3x Baal Predator: Sponson Heavy Bolters
3x Predator: Sponson Lascannons

8 AV13 vehicles and deepstriking troops. Unleash Rage + Furious Charge + Feel No Pain on an Assault Squad makes them a nasty little unit.

wuestenfux wrote:
2 TL Lascannon Predators (with HB sponsons)

this is the only bad thing i see.

HBs + lascannons is BIG NONO

Auto-cannon and lascannons OR Auto-cannon and HBs, but NEVER HBs and lascannon

An Aircav list would have a field day with this, all that juicy side armour 11. Your problem here is str10 guns and flanking. If an enemy tank has outflank your in for a bad day. Likewise, if a guardsmen player had al'rahem and outflanked an autocannon squad, youve lost your predator. Theres a lot that can happen here, but generally people shake in their boots when someone is gutsy enough to field a higher-than-av11 spam.

Baal Preds>Preds
Vindicators>Preds

Vindicators combined with Baal Preds works great.
Regular preds don't gain anywhere near as much as vindicators from being a fast vehicle.
Move 12" and fire a single lascannon or move 12" and fire a vindicator cannon?
In a 6 tank list with 3 vindis and 3 baal preds the vindicators would likely be targeted by your opponent 1st, so the Baal preds can be used to protect their side armor.

AV13 Mech works well.
I run this 2000 pt list to great effect.

115 Lib IP
240 Assault x10 Flx2, Sgt PF, Rhino
240 Assault x10 Flx2, Sgt PF, Rhino
140 Furioso Blood Talon, EA
185 Furioso Lib Wings, Shield
185 Furioso Lib Wings, Shield
140 Baal Flamestorm, SSHF
145 Baal AssC, SSHB
145 Baal AssC, SSHB
155 Vindi Siege
155 Vindi Siege
155 Vindi Siege

I love it! Give it a try

Jaon wrote:An Aircav list would have a field day with this, all that juicy side armour 11. Your problem here is str10 guns and flanking. If an enemy tank has outflank your in for a bad day. Likewise, if a guardsmen player had al'rahem and outflanked an autocannon squad, youve lost your predator. Theres a lot that can happen here, but generally people shake in their boots when someone is gutsy enough to field a higher-than-av11 spam.

Well, a field day?
The enemy will hardly be able to target the side armour in a wall of front AV 13 tanks.
An exception being outflanking units.

Oooo me likey...I think that'd be interesting to try out...maybe against a mech spam IG, as I think thats the best example of equal footing...(like IG are mass and SM are tough that whole bit) I'd sub that P&M blog for sure! D'love to see a battle report

115 Lib IP
240 Assault x10 Flx2, Sgt PF, Rhino
240 Assault x10 Flx2, Sgt PF, Rhino
140 Furioso Blood Talon, EA
185 Furioso Lib Wings, Shield
185 Furioso Lib Wings, Shield
140 Baal Flamestorm, SSHF
145 Baal AssC, SSHB
145 Baal AssC, SSHB
155 Vindi Siege
155 Vindi Siege
155 Vindi Siege

Looks interesting.
Is the Librarian on his own here?
I'd probably field 3 Predators here. A Vindicator can eventually lose its cannon too early in the game,
while a Pred has several weapons and can move 6'' and fire them all.

How about this?

Librarian (Shield, Wings) 100

Furioso Librarian Dreadnought (Wings, Lance) 175
Furioso Librarian Dreadnought (Wings, Shield) 175

5x Assault squad, Meltagun, Inferno Pistol, Razorback (Las/TLPlas) 180
5x Assault squad, Meltagun, Razorback (Las/TLPlas) 165
5x Assault squad, Meltagun, Razorback (Las/TLPlas) 165
5x Assault squad, Meltagun, Razorback (Las/TLPlas) 165

Baal Predator (Assault Cannon, 2x HBolter) 145
Baal Predator (Assault Cannon, 2x HBolter) 145

Predator (Auto Cannon, 2x Lascannon) 135
Predator (Auto Cannon, 2x Lascannon) 135

Total: 1850 pts

Ive used 2 Vindicators, people are desperate to get rid of them. I would imagine 3 would be exponentially better. Essentially what this army is doing is forcing people to make poor decisions regarding target priority, compounded by aggressive play - scouting the Baal Predators into good position early, forcing the Vindicators down a flank, landing a DP with Death Company on their heads, a flying Librarian Furioso coming for them, etc. I find the 2 or 3 Razorbacks never get shot at all, since there are multiple targets that need to be dealt with first. Outflanking and AirCav can get in your backfield and cause problems, but that's true against any list.

I am leaning more toward direct fire weapons as opposed to Vindicators if I am using jump pack Assault marines - between the BP, marines, and AC Razorbacks I need more direct fire weapons as opposed to templates and the collateral damage they bring with them. I do not, however, like relying on 5 man squads and Dreadnoughts to handle melee - they are too fragile. Death Company on foot do the job very well, assault terminators with a Priest do it even better. As always, your mileage may vary.

I found that Predators are better can openers than Vindicators.
Especially for Blood Angels, a Predator can move 6'' and fire all its weapons.
Compare this to a vanilla Predator, its just a pillbox.

That is true. I have run the 6 Pred list and it's nice, low on scoring but nice.
I have been playing with the Vindi more for the psychological factor than anything else.

Plus I need to work on my scatter rolls!

3 Vindicators with an effective 36" threat range every turn is pretty frightening.

I think I would prefer Auto/Las Preds though as the Vindicator's role can be filled easier by other elements of the list, whereas the Preds provide a points efficient and easy way to get long range AT firepower.

It really depends on the rest of the list composition for which one would be ideal though as they have different roles.

Well, the Auto/Las Preds seem to be the best choice here.
They are perfect can openers for tanks and transport up to AV 12 or 13.

*accidently necrothreaded a dead topic*

wuestenfux wrote:How about this?

Librarian (Shield, Wings) 100

Furioso Librarian Dreadnought (Wings, Lance) 175
Furioso Librarian Dreadnought (Wings, Shield) 175

5x Assault squad, Meltagun, Inferno Pistol, Razorback (Las/TLPlas) 180
5x Assault squad, Meltagun, Razorback (Las/TLPlas) 165
5x Assault squad, Meltagun, Razorback (Las/TLPlas) 165
5x Assault squad, Meltagun, Razorback (Las/TLPlas) 165

Baal Predator (Assault Cannon, 2x HBolter) 145
Baal Predator (Assault Cannon, 2x HBolter) 145

Predator (Auto Cannon, 2x Lascannon) 135
Predator (Auto Cannon, 2x Lascannon) 135

Total: 1850 pts

Just to throw it out there -- have you considered using land raiders for your assault squads instead of razorbacks. Your army has all this great high AV, but then there is this big gap where you have 4 AV 11 vehicles. If you used 2 land raiders, then deep struck in a 3rd squad (to contest/objective grab mid to late game) it would keep the synergy of your army.

<thread terminated; REALLY OLD>