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Well here is my 2nd stab at this!

HQ
SM captain, relic blade, hellfire rounds 140 points

Troops
Tactical squad (10 strong) flamer, ML, rhino 205 points
Tactical squad (10 strong) flamer, ML, rhino 205 points
Scout squad (10 strong) 10 sniper rifles, 10 camo cloaks 170 points
Scout squad (10 strong) 9 shotguns, 1 power fist 170 points

Elites
dreadnought, MM, HF, drop pod 140 points

Fast Attack
Land speeder storm, HF 60 points
Land speeder storm, HF 60 points
Land speeder squadron (3 speeders) Each has a HF,MM 210 points

Heavy Support
Predator, lascannon sponsons 120 points

Total 1480 points

I decided to take out the last scout squad and the last speeder storm to put in a land speeder squadron!!! It has some what of the same plan. rhinos up the middle, Dready drops by enemy attacks large targets. All scout squads will become combat squads. the 2 sniper squads will capture objectives or find cover and take out troops or enemy HQ. 1 squad of scouts with 5 shotguns will be on one speeder storm, and the other squad with 4 shotguns and the power weapon in the other speeder storm. both squads will zoom around duel assaulting troops out in the open or in cover. The land speeder squadron will take out enemy heavy support or hordes. I do not know if I should start them on the field or deep strike them... any ideas? How does my army look?

You've posted a new list so heres the advice from the end of the last list as you have many of the same issues:

You have 2 Land Speeder Storm but no squads to benefit from it why?

Scouts in LSS should have all combat blades, Sarge with a Fist and combi. My personal preference is a HF on the LSS as Scout BS is an issue. Configured like that you can charge that Scout squad into a mob of 20 Boyz and expect to wipe them out. Combat squadding is a bad idea for LSSs you need the Sarge to add the punch.

The only other use of the LSS is to assault the enemy vehicles in turn 1, again the PF is necessary for this. The LSS has the Scouts rule so can make a 24" moivement after deployment befor ethe game starts. Thus giving you a 45" charge radius in turn 1.

As others have said PFs on tacticals works well.

5 Combat squaded Sniper scouts are ace for objective camping. Just don't expect them to ever kill anything. Bolter scouts and Shotgun Scouts are always a poor choice.

The Pred is still a bit of a mess. The TL Lascannon is never worth the 60 points you are paying for it (because it costs 45 and you're giving up a 15 point Autocannon). Just take the Las-spons as your only up grade that tank is now just 120 points and will do just as well as your tank. But such Tanks should be taken in pairs or not at all otherwise they become too much of a Solo target.

Powerswords are lacklustre even on the Captain. You may as well swap the PW for a Lightening Claw you'll get the same number of attacks and re-rolls to wound for the same points! Hellfire is a bit meh especially as you have no natural MC hunting unit to put him in, and it completely goes against the PW you've given him...

Melta bombs are rarely worth 5 points unless they are on LSS scouts using them to first turn charge tanks and even then anything but an LR and you're better off with the PF...

1 Drop podding Dread will rarely suceed take 2 or none, allso you're points are off. I'd advise either dropping the Pred or the Dread and doubling up on the other one. Here's what I'd do with your list:

Either

Librarian: Null zone, Avenger 100 Points

Tactical squad (10 strong) flamer, combi-flamer, ML, rhino 215 points
Tactical squad (10 strong) meltagun, combi-melta, PF,ML, Drop pod 245 points (Libby goes here)
Scout squad (10 strong) 10 sniper rifles, 10 camo cloaks 170 points
Scout squad (5 strong) Combat blades, 1 PF, Combi-Melta 110 points
Scout squad (5 strong) Combat blades, 1 PF, Combi-Melta 110 points

Land speeder storm, HF 60 points
Land speeder storm, HF 60 points
Land speeder squadron (2 speeders) Each has a HF,MM 140 points

dreadnought, MM, HF, drop pod 150 points
dreadnought, MM, drop pod 140 points

Or with the preds this:


Librarian: Null zone, Avenger 100 Points

Tactical squad (10 strong) flamer, combi-flamer, Lascannon, PF, razorback 260 points (Libby goes here)
Tactical squad (10 strong) meltagun, combi-melta, PF,ML, rhino 245 points
Scout squad (10 strong) 10 sniper rifles, 10 camo cloaks 170 points
Scout squad (5 strong) Combat blades, 1 PF, Combi-Melta 110 points
Scout squad (5 strong) Combat blades, 1 PF, Combi-Melta 110 points

Land speeder storm, HF 60 points
Land speeder storm, HF 60 points
Land speeder squadron (2 speeders) Each has a HF,MM 140 points

Predator - Las-sponsons 120 points
Predator - Las-sponsons 120 points

thank you but there I need to say some stuff

You have 2 Land Speeder Storm but no squads to benefit from it why?

I do I plan to have the squad with all shotguns and one power fist to form combat squads. 5 in one speeder 5 in the other.

Scouts in LSS should have all combat blades, Sarge with a Fist and combi. My personal preference is a HF on the LSS as Scout BS is an issue. Configured like that you can charge that Scout squad into a mob of 20 Boyz and expect to wipe them out. Combat squadding is a bad idea for LSSs you need the Sarge to add the punch.

Did you not look the storms do have HF. I like shotguns, ether way they still get the same number of attacks. their WS is the same as their BS. I see your point in having 2 seperate squads to get another sarge

The only other use of the LSS is to assault the enemy vehicles in turn 1, again the PF is necessary for this. The LSS has the Scouts rule so can make a 24" moivement after deployment befor ethe game starts. Thus giving you a 45" charge radius in turn 1.

I have my speeder squadron to take them out. I like the 45" charge thing, I'll charge troops.

As others have said PFs on tacticals works well.

I will not have them in CC

5 Combat squaded Sniper scouts are ace for objective camping. Just don't expect them to ever kill anything. Bolter scouts and Shotgun Scouts are always a poor choice.

I just want them to hold the objective and hopefully pin troops.

The Pred is still a bit of a mess. The TL Lascannon is never worth the 60 points you are paying for it (because it costs 45 and you're giving up a 15 point Autocannon). Just take the Las-spons as your only up grade that tank is now just 120 points and will do just as well as your tank. But such Tanks should be taken in pairs or not at all otherwise they become too much of a Solo target.

1 pred is fine

Powerswords are lacklustre even on the Captain. You may as well swap the PW for a Lightening Claw you'll get the same number of attacks and re-rolls to wound for the same points! Hellfire is a bit meh especially as you have no natural MC hunting unit to put him in, and it completely goes against the PW you've given him...

Yeah I did not know what to give him

Melta bombs are rarely worth 5 points unless they are on LSS scouts using them to first turn charge tanks and even then anything but an LR and you're better off with the PF...

ok

1 Drop podding Dread will rarely suceed take 2 or none, allso you're points are off. I'd advise either dropping the Pred or the Dread and doubling up on the other one.

Why does every thing need pairs? they are not socks!

Here's what I'd do with your list:

Either

Librarian: Null zone, Avenger 100 Points

Never used one...

Tactical squad (10 strong) flamer, combi-flamer, ML, rhino 215 points
Tactical squad (10 strong) meltagun, combi-melta, PF,ML, Drop pod 245 points (Libby goes here)
Scout squad (10 strong) 10 sniper rifles, 10 camo cloaks 170 points
Scout squad (5 strong) Combat blades, 1 PF, Combi-Melta 110 points
Scout squad (5 strong) Combat blades, 1 PF, Combi-Melta 110 points

I like it but not the combi- stuff

Land speeder storm, HF 60 points
Land speeder storm, HF 60 points
Land speeder squadron (2 speeders) Each has a HF,MM 140 points

NOOOOOOOOOO I like 3 speeders in my squadron!!!

dreadnought, MM, HF, drop pod 150 points
dreadnought, MM, drop pod 140 points

One dread and one pred there!!!! a pair of missed matched socks!!!

Squadron's always seem like a bad idea to me...I mean there's a higher chance it'll get toasted on the damage result table. Also on the case of taking a pair rather than a single.

Having two of the same unit creates redundancy. You want redundancy. You do not want your only tank being taken out of the fight right? Also as mentioned before having only one of something, like a pred in your case, is asking for your opponent to nail it good. Always give your opponent hard choices when picking what to shoot at. Does he want to take a shot or both? Or get one for sure and leave the other to let loose for a turn? I'm sure you get the idea.

Also on squadrons again. They all have to fire at the same target. If you somehow find a way to split them up, I know you can't know, you'll be able to do more with your points during your turn. (i.e. shooting at two things instead of one)

I personally like combi- weapons. It's a cheap special weapon and you never know when you might need it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, in general I think your list could you use a few more support units. I mean another pred or something hardier for CC besides the one dread.

Shotguns is a poor choice compared to CCW, sure you get the same number of attacks and you will most likely hit on fours with both but the shotguns will grant anyone a coversave (unless you are lucky) it will not count vs combat resolution (winning by just 1 means -3 ld) so kills in CC is way superior to shooting. You also risk killing troops in such way that you cant assault and will thus be left out in the open without having killed anything but a few GEQ.

Three speeders in a squadron is a bad idea, imobilzed=destroyed on a AV10 hull is not nice. Deep striking three speeders in a squadron is a really bad idea.

Where will your Captain go? Eitherway you would be better of with a Libby.

I would drop the craptastic scouts. They will not kill anything and one or two HFs and they will be gone. Get some predators instead.

I do I plan to have the squad with all shotguns and one power fist to form combat squads. 5 in one speeder 5 in the other.

But they don't really benefit from the LSS. You want as much Combat Res as possible in the turn you charge to take advantage of that -2Ld. You nedtbrbreak your opponents on the charge. Shotgun Scouts won't. You also plan to engage the enemy assault troops with your scouts. This is a bad idea as they will lose. They should be up against static vehicles or shooty units and then they can cause damage.

Did you not look the storms do have HF. I like shotguns, ether way they still get the same number of attacks. their WS is the same as their BS. I see your point in having 2 seperate squads to get another sarge

It is a hang over from the previous thread and is now congratulating you for choosing the HF. WS is less important than BS and as I mentioned you want as many casualties counting towards Combat Res as possible. Also the BP/CCW scouts will do slightly more damage as the BP has AP5 the shotgun like the CC attacks has no AP...

I have my speeder squadron to take them out. I like the 45" charge thing, I'll charge troops.

You can't rely purely on 1 squad. Seriously assaulting static vehicles on turn 1 with LSS Scouts is a great idea. It reth e enemy game plan.

I will not have them in CC

Good luckwith that.

I just want them to hold the objective and hopefully pin troops.

I know I was agreeing with their selection as they got some bad press on the other thread. OnLy rarely will they ever kill anything, pinning is hugely unlikely. Good for whittling down MCs though.

1 pred is fine

No it isn't see later

Yeah I did not know what to give him

Either tool him for Combat but then he needs a CC unit to fight with (which you don't have). Or dump him for a Librarian which will be far more effective.

Why does every thing need pairs? they are not socks!

duel threat and redundancy, again see later.

I like it but not the combi- stuff

The combi-stuff makes the units far more effective. 1 Melta shot will either miss fail to penetrate or roll low on the damage chart most times. 2 Melta shots and suddenly you're favourite to take out that vehicle. Likewise 1 l hurt a horde sure but will not stop it and then it will run over you. 2 Flamer shots will maul it and your tac squad should then be favourite in the following turns assault.

NOOOOOOOOOO I like 3 speeders in my squadron!!!

There are just other things in the list you need to spend points on.

One dread and one pred there!!!! a pair of missed matched socks!!!

The problem is duel threat and redunadancy. What will happen if you go first (your best case). They will both target enemy vehicles and between them they will probably get the desired result. Sounds good and the same would be true if you had 2 Pred or 2 Dreads. The problem is now you have 1 back field Pred that can be targetted by all his long ranged AT and one close up dread that can get melta in the face. The dread goes bye bye and the pred will almost certainly be prevcented from shooting. The following turn that pred will either be prevented from shooting again or killed and so on and so forth. Basically your giving him nice easy target options and nice targets for each of his weapons. Drop both dreads in his midst and he has a problem, he can melt one and stop the other from shooting. But that wont' stop it from charging into CC and wrecking another unit. Likewise the 2 Preds option will mean his melta has no targets and in an attempt to hurt both Preds he may well end up hurting neither as he has to split his long ranged AT. Even if he does stop one from shooting the other will get it's shots off.

Also if you're against Say Necrons who won't care about your Melta (or Mechdar) the Pred becomes a nice easy target that he can concentrate on largely ignoring the dread. By having 1 of each you are making your opponents target selection easier. Also you are then down to 1 thing for a particular role and if that thing gets knocked out by a lucky shot early on you have no back up and all of a sudden you can't deal with a certain type of enemy or fullfill a certain role.

Having two of the same unit creates redundancy. You want redundancy. You do not want your only tank being taken out of the fight right? Also as mentioned before having only one of something, like a pred in your case, is asking for your opponent to nail it good. Always give your opponent hard choices when picking what to shoot at. Does he want to take a shot or both? Or get one for sure and leave the other to let loose for a turn? I'm sure you get the idea.

Helloooooo! Look he does have a choice! Does he shoot the pred, or does he shoot the dread!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shotguns is a poor choice compared to CCW, sure you get the same number of attacks and you will most likely hit on fours with both but the shotguns will grant anyone a coversave (unless you are lucky) it will not count vs combat resolution (winning by just 1 means -3 ld) so kills in CC is way superior to shooting. You also risk killing troops in such way that you cant assault and will thus be left out in the open without having killed anything but a few GEQ.

hmmm I see your point with the CCW

Helloooooo! Look he does have a choice! Does he shoot the pred, or does he shoot the dread!

But the Dread is in melta range the pred at a distance for his long range AT. Thus his two sets of different weapons each have a nice target to blow apart...

Thanks guys but i have to say this is a real downer for what i wanted to do with the army. I trade the cap for a libby. for the lone dread, i think he will be fine. meltas have a range of 12" and most squads only have one and they will have to close then I will burn them. 1 pred is fine too! if the enemy shoots all of there lascannons or other anti-tank stuff, that leaves my dread and speeder squadron safe from such weapons.

Have you ever been at home or in bed and there is someone clicking a pen over and over, or you hear the sound of water dripping from the sink. such redundant noises bother me, I very much dislike redundancy in most things. It gets boring really fast ex: "are we there yet?" "are we there yet?" "are we there yet?" "are we there yet?". Anyways thanks again I will put up a revised list up soon


Automatically Appended Next Post:

But the Dread is in melta range the pred at a distance for his long range AT. Thus his two sets of different weapons each have a nice target to blow apart...

that leaves my speeder squadron safe!!!

that leaves my speeder squadron safe!!!

Unless he targets them with heavy bolters or autocannons and the like. You know stuff that won't harm the Pred or Dread...

Wow, you don't understand at all. F.Y.I. Melta isn't the only anti tank weapon in the game. You have lascannons? So what, so does your enemy. I feel like you're going to get horribly outgunned. Good luck, maybe you'll prove us all wrong.

Also your counterpoint for redundancy is slowed and not appropriate. Redundancy is like carrying a spare tire when going off roading or having an extra pen during an exam. So if your first one gets fethed up you have a back up.

Rex
here's my thoughts...
captain looks good. relic blades are super solid. hell fire rounds aren't my favorite I'd take a combi weapon but they're not horrible either. w/e.

tacticals are silly. if you really want to run them put them in drop pods or razorbacks. the drop pod reliably gets them there; they've got no mobility afterwards but they *get* there. Rhinos get shot up and have no offensive capability. With a razorback you're running the same risk but at least you have offensive capability. I like the twin linked heavy flamer on it but opinions vary.

scouts are also silly. one of your big disadvantages as a marine player is that your troops section is just full of lose, but you still need scoring units. I deal with this by running bikes but my point is you need to deal with this in some way. my advice just pay the extra 3 points for tacticals, their stat line is alot better and the unit isn't much more expensive.

Dreadnought in drop pod yes

Land Speeder Storm yes. I wish people understood how good the auto hit with the flamer is. when they see ap 2 on the plasmagun they go gaga; why? normally you have to roll 3 times to kill a model. with ap2 you only have to roll 2 times. flame throwers do the same thing - eliminates one of the 3 rolls - and costs alot less. people just don't realize it because it's spelled out a little less obviously in the rules.

Land Speeder Squadron yes. Some people are saying squadrons are bad and it's true that it's better all things considered to have 3 land speeders in 3 seperate units, but you have to work within the limits of the force organization chart and the squadrons rule isn't debilitating. imo the strongest play here is to drop the scouts, drop the storms, and buy more hf/mm land speeders. But that seems like a really radical revision of your list. Given that you want to run 2 land speeder storms running 3 land speeders in a squadron is, while less than optimal, still solid.

Predator no. If you want to kill a tank run more meltaguns. lascannons are marginal right now for alot of reasons: they cost too much, cover is too easy to get, they don't come on good firing platforms... if you want to run a tank go for the vindicator.

I think right now your list is lacking focus. try to imagine your ideal game: you rush up to them and flame them, or you sit back and blast them to pieces, or you're so fast you run circles around them.... whatever. my point is pick a specific strategy and build your list to do that exceptionally well. flexible lists pay for their wider range of capabilities by being mediocre at all of them. So no matter what strategy is called for in the game, they will not excel at it....

AF

From what I've been hearing, you seem to like the idea of the army you are creating. If it fits some fluff, or some other whim, then by all means, keep it. However, the tactical points made by everyone do have merit. You must remember, the best benefit to this forum is experience (slightly hypocritical for me to be saying this, but you get my drift). The overall tactics are tried and true. If you prefer making an army to your own tastes, please do, that's one of the best things about 40k. But if you want to be more competitive, it might be wise to accept the suggestions.

And the only thing I'll say is I'm not a big fan of squadrons. If you want to shoot at the same target, you can, but it just seems to limiting. Unless your trying to protect something (I don't see what) I can't see a good reason to use them.

New list and hopefully last: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/311779.page#1844028