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“It has come to my attention that people have taken a simple advisory letter as a cease and desist letter. First off I must point out what the letter received by Sabol Designs and their ownership actually is. The letter sent out is a simple advisory letter informing a company who deals in foam containers for the wargaming industry that our Battle Foam Patent is about to issue. An advisory letter simply states that certain patents are going to take effect and that companies that deal with such products should be made aware of these patents. Advisory letters are actually meant to help companies that may not know that these patents can and may be enforced. Sabol Designs was simply given information that could help them in case future problems did arise.

We also sent the letter in response to a number of unfortunate events that occurred at GenCon just this past month. While attending GenCon we had been approached by a number of customers stating that The WarStore was selling Battle Foam trays inside of their Sabol Army Transports. This happened during the entire weekend from over 10 different customers. It got to the point that we had to send a staff member over to the WarStore booth to find out how our products had gotten inside of Sabol bags. We actually do not sell our products using The WarStore to protect our individual business owner that cannot compete with the internet market.

When we looked into this matter we noticed that the items being sold had actually been Outrider Hobbies foam trays. We also noticed that large signs promoting Outrider Hobbies had also been placed all around The WarStore booth. This made it clear that Mr. Wade had decided that he could no longer compete with us fairly so he once again decided to take our ideas and marketing momentum for use with his subpar product.

Simply put, Battle Foam is a company that employs’ many hard working people that not only love the hobby but work and play in it. These hard working individuals are the people that slave over your products and insure the highest quality possible. Because of these people I am obligated along with our legal team to protect our company brand, copy rights, intellectual property, and patents. We will always fight to keep the honor and dedication of Battle Foam intact.

By sending out advisory letters we simply intend to help, not scare. These companies that may not know that they are working with someone like Outrider Hobbies that is clearly infringing on our Patent can end up in unwanted legal situations. Our intent in this letter was simply to help Sabol Designs avoid any legal fallout from future litigation against Outrider Hobbies.

Sincerely,

Romeo Filip
CEO
Battle Foam LLC.
www.battlefoam.com”

P.S. I am a long time Dakka member and fan. What I will not do is get into some heated fight about this letter. I am simply posting this because clearly it has not been understood by parties posting and commenting. I will not reply to this thread and I will not be goated into a senseless fight about nothing. We mearly wanted to help Sabol Designs by letting them know that Outrider Hobbies woud deal with future litigation once our patent issues.

Below is a copy of the follow up letter sent to Sabol Designs once our legal teams communicated.


Re: Method and Apparatus for Fabricating a Foam Container with a Computer Controlled Laser Cutting Device (U.S. Patent App. 12/479,410)

Dear Mr. Sabol and Ms. Haines:

Thank you for your telephone call yesterday in response to my letter regarding the pending Battle Foam patent application. We appreciate your assurance you do not make or sell laser cut foam products. The Battle Foam patent does not apply to plucked foam products cut by knife.
Thank you for your prompt response. My client attended the GenCon in Indianapolis and was approached by several people with Sabol bags containing laser cut foam trays not produced by my client. We are pleased to learn you were not involved in the conduct leading to this customer confusion.
To be clear, we have no objection to the plucked foam products displayed on your website and we make no claim that the Battle Foam patent application applies to foam products that are not cut by lasers.

Yours truly,
Ray K. Harris

If the letter was meant to be a friendly reminder to other companies I would hate to see how BF treats it's enemies.

I also don't understand what BF could be patenting? You'll never be able to patent "laser cut foam". The only thing you could patent is the specific foam patterns that are fit to GW models. But you can't even do that without GW's permission otherwise you will get a very real C&D letter. I just think the whole argument will be settled when BF's patent application gets rejected.

Sorry, but that wording is pretty damned clear to be a C&D.

A lot of flowery language, but the intent and wording is pretty good at making the reasoning behind the letter clear.

Kanluwen wrote:
Sorry, but that wording is pretty damned clear to be a C&D.

A lot of flowery language, but the intent and wording is pretty good at making the reasoning behind the letter clear.

I guess people are going to see what they want to see

Another Foam War thread.

Thank you Romeo for clarrifying and I think what you say( though it shouldn't need to be said) will sway some of the forum trolls out their. Though we are on the internet and many of you use the freedom of speech of such it is unfair to take a company like battlefoam and slander it when they did nothing to cause such malice. Though I for one did state we should hear from Romeo he did not need to post any sort of response but I am thankfull he did. I have seen what he donates to people to help their events and the amount of charity alone speaks highly of his character. Thank you Romeo you sir in my eyes are a true gentlemen and thank you for the products and the way you have revolutionized a aspect of this hobby we all love.

How can you patent cutting foam with lasers? Can you patent cutting foam with knifes? What about chainsaws? That makes no sense. Unless you've invented a specific type of foam or laser that makes it super-effective and efficient, it makes no sense.

So you saw people at a con selling similar products, legally I might add and you flipped your lid. It is clear from your past actions that you aren't a rational person. How is it unfair for a competitor to make a partnership with a vendor, especially one you say you didn't want? And signs everywhere so it couldn't be that confusing.

You lost your court case, the judge as good as told you that you lied and made stuff up and got fake statements from people involved in your baseball bat company. Come on now. It sucks but you aren't doing anything to help your cause.

As for anyone that stands up for you and talks about how you help the community etc. Your type is all smiles and sweetness until you don't get your way. This isn't rational.
http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/david_v_goliath_romeo_filip_v_mlb/

eNvY wrote: What about chainsaws?

Sometimes a lumberjack only has that and needs some foam to be cut

"Publication gives Battle Foam LLC the provisional right to obtain a reasonable royalty from the publication date until the patent has issued."
This is informing Sabol that there's money on the line, and a patent in effect, which makes computer controlled laser cut foam containers the sole provision of Battlefoam LLC.

"Thereafter, Battle Foam LLC will seek injunctive relief and additional damages for any continuing infringement."
This is legalese for saying "cease and desist or we'll sue you so hard your grandchildren will still be paying the legal bills".

"This letter is to document your actual notice of your obligation to maintain a future calculation of provisional damages records of(1) your sales of the FOAM CORP/ Outrider Hobbies foam product(whether or not sold under the FOAM CORP brand) and (2) any additional products or services sold to customers with the infringing product."

Lots of big words simply saying "This is your one and only warning that if you sell Outrider Hobbies' Computer Controlled Laser Cut Foam Container System, we're coming after you for all the sales you make from that specific line of foam containers, and anything whatsoever that Outrider Hobbies sells through your brand/company".

Polonius can probably explain it better, but that's what I got out of reading it.

Sgt Diablo wrote:
When we looked into this matter we noticed that the items being sold had actually been Outrider Hobbies foam trays. We also noticed that large signs promoting Outrider Hobbies had also been placed all around The WarStore booth. This made it clear that Mr. Wade had decided that he could no longer compete with us fairly so he once again decided to take our ideas and marketing momentum for use with his subpar product.

This part confuses me. It seems to make sense for a strategic alliance between two companies (OH and Sabol), using a distributer to reach markets you're ignoring. I'm not sure what's not fair, nor what ideas he's stolen. Placing trays in bags? Putting the name of the company on large signs? Going to cons?

And I gotta admit, I'm a lawyer and it took me two readings to see what that letter was actually saying. Phrases like "continuing infringement" are more accusatory than, say, "future infringement."

I don't know this, but would the ability of patent holder to recover royalties apply in all stages of the chain of commerce? It seems like if Outrider is violating the patent, selling trays at wholesale to another party, that's the profit that Battlefoam would be entitled to damages from, not the profit the Warstore has selling trays. If I'm wrong please correct.

For a friendly warning, the language is very aggressive. I am not surprised that Denise Haynes was personally offended. I would be offended, too, if I received this letter.

Kanluwen wrote:"Publication gives Battle Foam LLC the provisional right to obtain a reasonable royalty from the publication date until the patent has issued."
This is informing Sabol that there's money on the line, and a patent in effect, which makes computer controlled laser cut foam containers the sole provision of Battlefoam LLC.

"Thereafter, Battle Foam LLC will seek injunctive relief and additional damages for any continuing infringement."
This is legalese for saying "cease and desist or we'll sue you so hard your grandchildren will still be paying the legal bills".

"This letter is to document your actual notice of your obligation to maintain a future calculation of provisional damages records of(1) your sales of the FOAM CORP/ Outrider Hobbies foam product(whether or not sold under the FOAM CORP brand) and (2) any additional products or services sold to customers with the infringing product."

Lots of big words simply saying "This is your one and only warning that if you sell Outrider Hobbies' Computer Controlled Laser Cut Foam Container System, we're coming after you for all the sales you make from that specific line of foam containers, and anything whatsoever that Outrider Hobbies sells through your brand/company".

Polonius can probably explain it better, but that's what I got out of reading it.

The letter is not a cease and desist. Please don't think it is, if only because there's no act that the sender is requesting to cease.

The line about "continuing infringement" is certainly a poor word choice, as it seems to imply some sort of past infringement. It's also in not way written in a helpful way. Legal letters can be written to be more far more polite and helpful, especially for a company that probably doesn't retain counsel.

Polonius wrote:

The letter is not a cease and desist. Please don't think it is, if only because there's no act that the sender is requesting to cease.

Maybe not in the sense that it says C&D. But the message is still stop doing this or you are going to pay. A very poorly worded over reaction to completely legitimate competition. It just makes the BF ownership look immature IMO.

Huh. That last part seems to clearly be implying to cease Sabol's relationship with Outrider Hobbies.

But Polonius is the lawyer, I'm not.

A couple questions:

How does GW (or the company GW outsources from) make their foam trays?

Is there a patent there as well?

When will we see the rise of the third foam company untainted by internet drama?

And a response to the 'laser cutting can't be patented' crowd: Unless I am incredibly mistaken, any novel process/device/technique/etc (and until very recently, genes) can be patented. If they took laser A and foam B and developed some kind of time/power dependent cutting method, then yeah. Patent.

Also patentable: cutting foam with lasers in a way that keeps it from catching fire, melting, or releasing noxious fumes.

Wow so a vendor at Gencon saw something similar on sale at a booth across the venue and instead of competing with said business with a superior product you send in the lawyers.

I also saw at Gencon your booth (battlefoam) was a ravaged wasteland by Sunday. I can't count how many brand new Warmachine and especially Malifaux bags I saw around the con that weekend. That's not only good for sales obviously but it's tons of positive free marketing. Everyone was talking about Malifaux already at Gencon as it was one of the big highlights this year and you just so happened to have a home run product at the show.

A lot of that positive marketing is instantly converted into negative sentiment. I had a chance to talk to several gamers about the subject of foam transports at the show. Many of them showed disgust over the legal drama you caused with Outrider hobbies and a few of them outright refused to purchase your products over the issue. Outrider is a no-name in the business, however going after a big name like Sabol will get you in some serious hot water with all tabletop gamers. So much of your success in this industry is going to revolve around word of mouth.

In years past even as early as last year (your first gencon) Sabol would always sell out at the Warstore. Even the crazy sizes would be gone by Sunday. One year the Warstore literally had Sabol bags lined around the booth and they were all gone by the end of the convention. This was the first year I still saw a ton of Sabol products still on the shelf waiting to be sold.

Your products are great they are very expensive compared to the competition but worth the cost in every way. That's all you need stop all the legal BS the foam wars must end.

When we looked into this matter we noticed that the items being sold had actually been Outrider Hobbies foam trays. We also noticed that large signs promoting Outrider Hobbies had also been placed all around The WarStore booth. This made it clear that Mr. Wade had decided that he could no longer compete with us fairly so he once again decided to take our ideas and marketing momentum for use with his subpar product.

I see fighting words Romeo.


Are you also saying that everyone in the wargaming industry who flocks to warstore is 'weak'?

You do realize that warstore is backed by a full distribution warehouse? (This you know)

Are you also insulting both the warstore, and the wargaming business industry whoever wishes to sell products via warstore?

Thats rather insulting.

Slackermagee wrote:
And a response to the 'laser cutting can't be patented' crowd: Unless I am incredibly mistaken, any novel process/device/technique/etc (and until very recently, genes) can be patented. If they took laser A and foam B and developed some kind of time/power dependent cutting method, then yeah. Patent.

Also patentable: cutting foam with lasers in a way that keeps it from catching fire, melting, or releasing noxious fumes.

Ding Ding Ding we have a winner! Anybody that has been here for the first dozen parts of the foam wars knows this is the crux of the issue. Thank you Slackermagee for voicing it!

Slackermagee wrote:

And a response to the 'laser cutting can't be patented' crowd: Unless I am incredibly mistaken, any novel process/device/technique/etc (and until very recently, genes) can be patented. If they took laser A and foam B and developed some kind of time/power dependent cutting method, then yeah. Patent.

Also patentable: cutting foam with lasers in a way that keeps it from catching fire, melting, or releasing noxious fumes.

That's only partially true. Unless they came up with some specific software or some new kind of laser they can't patent general methods of production like laser cutting foam. My guess would be the method they use was already patented at one time and that patent lapsed allowing the general public to use the technology.

For BF to try and patent laser cut foam is like GW trying to patent plastic injection modeling. Unless they have something individual they have come up with other than the foam pattern they will not get their application through. Even then slight adjustments to the process will make it different enough to not fall under the patent.

Polonius wrote:

Sgt Diablo wrote:
When we looked into this matter we noticed that the items being sold had actually been Outrider Hobbies foam trays. We also noticed that large signs promoting Outrider Hobbies had also been placed all around The WarStore booth. This made it clear that Mr. Wade had decided that he could no longer compete with us fairly so he once again decided to take our ideas and marketing momentum for use with his subpar product.

This part confuses me. It seems to make sense for a strategic alliance between two companies (OH and Sabol), using a distributer to reach markets you're ignoring. I'm not sure what's not fair, nor what ideas he's stolen. Placing trays in bags? Putting the name of the company on large signs? Going to cons?

Sounds like there was some actual customer confusion going on (which is less patent, more trade dress).

For all of you "you can't patent cutting foam with lasers!" people - unless you're the patent examiner who is actually looking at the patent application, your opinions are neither helpful nor relevant. So far as I can tell, this patent application hasn't been published yet, so there's no way to know WHAT Battlefoam is claiming. Until we see it, calm down.

So I can patent my supersecret way of preparing Peanut Butter and Jelly sandwiches?

SCORE!
Polonius, I need your legal consul! We're riding this delicious sandwich to the bank!

This is just as sad as this:

http://mashable.com/2010/08/25/facebook-teachbook-lawsuit/


I guess, we can't name foam, foam.

Otherwise we'd have an OH case.

Sgt Diablo wrote:An advisory letter simply states that certain patents are going to take effect and that companies that deal with such products should be made aware of these patents.

Nice job at suppressing "prior art" and obvious extension of existing technology in your patent application.

Going to patent the wheel, next?

Janthkin wrote:

For all of you "you can't patent cutting foam with lasers!" people - unless you're the patent examiner who is actually looking at the patent application, your opinions are neither helpful nor relevant. So far as I can tell, this patent application hasn't been published yet, so there's no way to know WHAT Battlefoam is claiming. Until we see it, calm down.

Educated opinions on the law do matter, because the law is what the examiner will use to make their decision.

Well you can patent a lot of things like specialized Farm Equipment so perhaps this is applicable here?

But I'm not really into economics and law so I have no idea what I'm talking about

If you excuse me, I need to outrun the flamewar!

This is just ridiculous.

Polonius wrote:I don't know this, but would the ability of patent holder to recover royalties apply in all stages of the chain of commerce? It seems like if Outrider is violating the patent, selling trays at wholesale to another party, that's the profit that Battlefoam would be entitled to damages from, not the profit the Warstore has selling trays. If I'm wrong please correct.

Bullsh!tFoam would only be entitled to actual damages, caused by OH foam.

If the quality is markedly different, then Bullsh!tFoam isn't harmed any more than Rolls Royce is harmed by Kia.



If the technology is the same, and OH foam is a simple extension of basic foam cutting technology, then the patent is invalid.

If I were OH, I'd contact the PTO immediately and submit prior art so that the junk patent is not issued, or invalidated as soon as possible.

http://www.livingdice.com/5095/battlefoam-foam-laser-cutting-patent-application-document/


your patent states - 'computer' controlled device.

Can I cut my foam manually with a laser?

That would be epic if you could!