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I, for one, do not want some low quality rinky-dink physical rules-only booklet. Those things suck to work with. And they are very hard on the eyes. I find them all but unreadable today.

I rather like the full-size rulebook that we have, and only wish that a hardback with the updated rules be made available.

If it's 300 for a core in the second KS or higher I might not be able to do it. That's just insane levels of pricing. He is picking the worst time of the year to run the second KS where there is tons of competition for dollars.

Since It will have to be converted from CAD meaning it will be even more insanely stupid. I could buy my own Starship in star citizen for that kind of price. I could almost buy a second Tau Titan with that kind of cash or start a huge conventional collection of miniatures or buy a ton of video games. Or a combination of all the above.

Cergorach wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
I wonder if this KS will also fund some good instruction manuals for the kits.

Okay, I'll shut up and see myself out now.

DIng.

I can't really take Poots seriously because of this. Really insulting for the customers imo.

Well... If you can't assemble the models without some official instruction manuals, maybe you should stick with those green army men...

All us KS backers can use 'Them Internets', because we could also use Kickstarter itself. The problems start if these models ever hit retail. I have more of a problem with the actual missing product (Lantern Festival)...

Some people see insults in everything other people do or don't. Maybe there's not something wrong with everyone else... Now you can feel insulted! ;-)

Also curious if there'll be an 'upgrade' pledge, updated cards, rulebook, and possibly new things...

Well, some people seem to think that we shoul be grateful when a company sell them half made products and consistently make false promises. As PT Barnaum said, there's a sucker born every minute. Asking for assembly guides is far from being an extravagant demand, especially considering the fan made ones are far from being perfect.

Am I able to assemble the minis without the guide? Yeah, but I'm also able to patch a tire that has a flat. Doesn't means that I appreciate being sold one when I was promised a new one.

 Gamgee wrote:
If it's 300 for a core in the second KS or higher I might not be able to do it. That's just insane levels of pricing. He is picking the worst time of the year to run the second KS where there is tons of competition for dollars.

Since It will have to be converted from CAD meaning it will be even more insanely stupid. I could buy my own Starship in star citizen for that kind of price. I could almost buy a second Tau Titan with that kind of cash or start a huge conventional collection of miniatures or buy a ton of video games. Or a combination of all the above.

Then go do that. If you don't want to drop the cash, don't. No one's forcing your hand.

Gamgee wrote:

Since It will have to be converted from CAD meaning it will be even more insanely stupid.

Could be worse my friend. It could be Aussie prices.

Just thinking about Aussie prices is making me feel bad. :(

I would be interested in a box set of expansions

I would like a proper assembly guide. That would be nice, given that such a guide was promised. Whether it's CAD or a cleanup of Vibrant Lantern or something else, I don't care. I'd just like to see how the models were designed to be built.

As for price on the KS, I am prepared to drop $200, maybe $300, depending on the offer. I love the sculpted resins far more than the multi-part Survivors, so I hope that the new monopose resins become available in plastic, as an expansion set of some sort.

Chopxsticks wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Without artwork really? really?

I think you fundamentally misunderstand what KDM is.

The art work is great, but it does nothing for the pace of the game. It should be pulled out and the rules condensed. Then pack the art in a separate book to fawn over. Some photos make sense, most serve no purpose.

And this is where you are wrong KDM is the artwork, the rules book devoid of the artwork is not much to write home about, the artwork is what sets the pace and makes it unique.

A very trimmed-down PDF of content could be nice, but yeah, trimming out the pics is equivalent to suggesting you just play the whole game with blank pawns- yes, it doesn't change the mechanics, but you lose a huge chunk of the flavor, in a game where that flavor is a huge chunk of what it was designed around.

@PsychoticStorm I dont see how I'm wrong, and I would like to know how you get to decided for people on such matters.
The artwork doesnt set any pace for me, and it doesnt make it any more unique than the models themselves already do. The text does far more for me. Can I stand on my soap box and tell you this is where you are wrong?
I see no reason two books cant exist. I also stated that not all art needed pulled, but it would be nice if the full page art was.
No one in my gaming group likes the rule book in its long floppy page format. The pages are to limb, the art is nice, but the large full page stuff and the multi page cartoons just created more pages to flip through when you are already flipping all over the place.

PS, I think, certainly represents the dominant perspective and that of the game company, so, insofar as there can be a correct way to enjoy a game, I think that's correct. Similarly, I feel like GW's line is best enjoyed as intended (casual).

Doing it another way is, well, a way you can do it or prefer it, but expecting an edition that caters to a minority view that is in opposition to the creators' intent is probably asking for a bit much.

Print runs are really expensive, so there's got to be a pretty good incentive to do one.

Chopxsticks wrote:
@PsychoticStorm I dont see how I'm wrong, and I would like to know how you get to decided for people on such matters.
The artwork doesnt set any pace for me, and it doesnt make it any more unique than the models themselves already do. The text does far more for me. Can I stand on my soap box and tell you this is where you are wrong?
I see no reason two books cant exist. I also stated that not all art needed pulled, but it would be nice if the full page art was.
No one in my gaming group likes the rule book in its long floppy page format. The pages are to limb, the art is nice, but the large full page stuff and the multi page cartoons just created more pages to flip through when you are already flipping all over the place.

The practical reason why two books cannot exist is purely economical, printing costs, shipping costs and the demand for a sterile rulebook for a game that is mostly theme should be too low for such a product to exist.

There are two kind of games to design in their purest format, abstract were rules are important and theme could be anything and thematic were the theme over-dominates the rules and usually the rules do not make sense without the theme.

KDM selling point is the theme, the background the models and the artwork, the rules are as supplement to this not the key selling point every single artwork, in cards and rulebook sets the gaming experience, the tone and the expectations, the artwork for intimacy section of the rules for example is shocking and all it does is showing a couple fully clothed enjoying each others company, why? because it the entire book sets the tone of an environment so dynamic, irrational, claustrophobic and lethal that such a timid, logical and rational image looks out of place.

You cannot deliver such gaming experience with a plain text rulebook and spending resources for one would be a mistake, beyond the economic side it also devalues the product.

And I respectfully disagree. seeing the art once is great, I don't need to see it every time I flip to the page for the rules.

I also see no reason why in his next kickstarter for the rulebook there cannot be an option for an artless rule book. Hell he could even put "This needs X amount of backers" and if it doesnt reach it so be it.
I see your points but I dont understand why you cant grasp that the art in the rule book does nothing for me. The mini's the gear cards and most importantly all the text, on the cards, the hunt events, in the rules. Those add far for to the game than the art does to me. Is the Giant photo of the White lion cool, sure is! Can he be pulled out to condense the bloated rule book? I see no reason why not.

Oh I can grasp very well the fact you want a plain text rulebook, that you do not want art in it and that you want something that is individualised for you.

That is not how products design work, the rulebook will not be designed for an individuals or a minorities needs but for what the majority wants and in a way that it will boost the sales and appeal of the product.

KDM designer correctly sells an IP, not a game and all his decisions are based on promoting KD IP not a single game.

Presenting the rules bare of art devalues the product sets them separate from the IP and gives to potential new customers no reference to the IP Poots creates and promotes, moreover been tied to a premium product as KDM is with such a high price it will not only look cheap, it will make the whole product feel cheap.

I'm actually hoping for the opposite for the rulebook. I'd love to see a hardcover version with more art.

 Malkaven wrote:
I'm actually hoping for the opposite for the rulebook. I'd love to see a hardcover version with more art.

I'm mostly hoping for a premium hardback 2nd edition book with a couple ribbon markers.

Would be the most realistic option to offer, but would make the core box even more heavy and expensive.

I think the idea is the Hardback would be available separately from the Core box.

And I second the motion for more art.

More comics/in-universe stories would be awesome too.

Well, there's still s'posed ta' be an art book PDF on its way

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Would be the most realistic option to offer, but would make the core box even more heavy and expensive.

I'm looking at the hardback as an separate upgrade. And the extra art? How about they take the PDF artbook and simply print that and bind it in. Because we want actual printed art in full color, rather than just the PDF quality stuff. And the expansion rules? Why not print & bind those, too? With all of those print & art assets already existing components, stitching them together can't be that much more effort.

I am not sure it could reach necessary numbers as a stand alone product.

As a print to demand product tied to the KS, I think it would.

Are you non USA guys not becoming incredibly frustrated, like I am, that all these LE models are only available from the USA warehouse? I would have easily dropped 200$ on the stuff that was put up on the store this month... but delivery + custom charges just makes it far too costly. :(

I'd love Adam to bulk import them into the EU for the convenience of it all and because shipping would be faster,

but most of the extra costs (VAT, shipping in from the US and paying the warehouse to process the orders) would still have to be passed along to us meaning I don't think we'd save much

(except the £8 to royal mail for the privilege of paying the taxes)

I would be quite happy if the import tax was just 10-12 euro and not something along the lines of 30% plus whatever abysmal extra the courier companies can summon.

You guys complaining about VAT, etc. need to complain to your countries Customs and Import charges, not us - we can't do anything about that.

anab0lic wrote:
Are you non USA guys not becoming incredibly frustrated, like I am, that all these LE models are only available from the USA warehouse?

Don't you have your LE minis for GW when it's in UK only? Now you know how the rest of the world feels now not being able to get them.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You guys complaining about VAT, etc. need to complain to your countries Customs and Import charges, not us - we can't do anything about that.

Don't you (not you specifically) do the same when things are not from US?

I simply refuse to buy things outside the US.