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So I've been getting my Chaos Lord on Dragon ready and I was reading on page 105 that both the rider and the mount are hit if a spell uses a template. This means that the Purple Sun doesn't use the rider's Initiative? Or do both the Dragon and the Lord test on the Initiative of the Lord?

Will Necrotic Phylactery protect both against death magic and characteristic tests since it says "the model" in the magic item description?

Just want to be sure of the rules before I bust him out and talk up a bunch of smack (which I will do regardless of... well, anything)

Thanks

Template weapons hit both for the purpces of wounding.
OTOH purple sun, dwellers below, pit of shades and the like cause one test per model and the rider and mount are one model.
See here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/311348.page

IF "the model" is protected, then "the model" is protected. The rider and mount are 1 model.

Dwellers below causes one test against the model using the highest initiative, if the test is failed both the mount and character are slain outright. However, any template, BRB, pg.105, Templates (Purple Sun, Pit of Shades) hits both and they both test separately which could leave the mount or the character solo, or both could die. I'm not sure how your magic item interacts with templates.

Except Purple sun states it causes one test per model, which directly contradicts what you are saying.

( In other words it IS one hit per model, use the best stat to do so, if failed both are slain)

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:Dwellers below causes one test against the model using the highest initiative, if the test is failed both the mount and character are slain outright. However, any template, BRB, pg.105, Templates (Purple Sun, Pit of Shades) hits both and they both test separately which could leave the mount or the character solo, or both could die. I'm not sure how your magic item interacts with templates.

Doing it you'r way would result on two tests being made for one model, which brakes the rules for those spells.
So to explain it clearer – yes its a template and it does hit both of them, after that however the rules for the spell itself kick in and you make a test for the one model that happens to heve been hit twice.

Thanks for the Link Hoverboy!

Please someone lock this thread. I've resurrected an invincible monster...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except Purple sun states it causes one test per model, which directly contradicts what you are saying.

( In other words it IS one hit per model, use the best stat to do so, if failed both are slain)

The Purple Sun of Xerus, "Any model touched by the template must pass an Initiative test or be slain outright with no saves of any kind allowed."

pg.105 Templates, "If you use a weapon or a spell that uses a template against a monster mount, both the riders and the mount are automatically hit if the monster's base is touched by the template (note that this includes bouncing cannonalls!)."

pg.105 "Whilst a cavalry model is treated as a single model for purposes of hitting and wounding, a character and his ridden monster can be attacked separately. As the battle goes on, the character may find himself unhorsed (well, un-griffoned, or un-dragoned anyway) or the monster might have its rider slain from its back."

I would say that it hits both and they test separately when it comes to Purple sun and Pit of shades. That last statement would support the idea that they both test individually as they are not cavalry.

One model one test, regardless of the special rules for shooting at ridden monsters you cannot have two tests on the same model, this has been done before and i will attempt to resist doing it again.

The rules for templates at ridden monsters specifically says they both test. This doesn't contradict purple sun or pit of shades in any way. I'll agree that dwellers below is one test because it is not a template weapon. But it clearly states both the rider and the monster are hit. If you are hit with the purple sun you take a test, thus since both are hit, they both take a separate test.

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:This doesn't contradict purple sun or pit of shades in any way.

Yes it does it causes two tests one one model – a direct contradiction of the spell's rules.

BRB page 104, A character and his mount are treated as a single character model for all rules purpoces , exept as noted below", the following notes do not include any rules for characteristic tests so we detter to the normal rules for them on page 10 ("characteristic thests" last paragraph), and unless you can find a page refference that allows those spells to brake their own rules and cause two tests on one model then this is RAW.

Edit: Hitting the same model twice can't change that.

YES it does contradict: Purple sun states each MODEL takes *1* test.

You are trying to make *1* model take *2* tests

LOL the tag team strikes again

HoverBoy wrote:

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:This doesn't contradict purple sun or pit of shades in any way.

Yes it does it causes two tests one one model – a direct contradiction of the spell's rules.

BRB page 104, A character and his mount are treated as a single character model for all rules purpoces , exept as noted below", the following notes do not include any rules for characteristic tests so we detter to the normal rules for them on page 10 ("characteristic thests" last paragraph), and unless you can find a page refference that allows those spells to brake their own rules and cause two tests on one model then this is RAW.

Edit: Hitting the same model twice can't change that.

Well, what that statement is referring to is all of the special rules and exceptions from Cavalry on pg.104 to the end of pg.106. Templates happens to be one of those exceptions that breaks the rule about being a single model.

Yes but it applies to wounding, those spells don't wound they cause tests and as such we have two rules chiming in to stop the rider and mount to test separately, the spell's "one test per model" and the "a rider and his mount are one model" rules.

Its two vs one, and you'r example is out of context too.

Edit: Keep in mind the "Templates" rule is meant to replace the second paragraph of the "Shooting at Monsers" rules when templates are involved.

nosferatu1001 wrote:YES it does contradict: Purple sun states each MODEL takes *1* test.

You are trying to make *1* model take *2* tests

It doesn't contradict it at all. Pg.104 says that they are one model except for, and then it goes into the exceptions, templates being one of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoverBoy wrote:Yes but it applies to wounding, those spells don't wound they cause tests and as such we have two rules chiming in to stop the rider and mount to test separately, the spell's "one test per model" and the "a rider and his mount are one model" rules.

Its two vs one, and you'r example is out of context too.

Edit: Keep in mind the "Templates" rule is meant to replace the second paragraph of the "Shooting at Monsers" rules when templates are involved.

It applies to "hits." It's not out of context as it specifically says, weapon or spell that uses a template.

Argh the circle begins...

Ok i'll tipe out as simply as possible:
1. The "Templaes" rule explains what happens when a character on a monster is hit by a template.
2. This replaces the 2nd step of the "Shooting at Ridden Monsters rules" whenever a template is involved thus eliminating the randomising rules.
3. It is then followed by step 3 the wounding rules.
4. Purple Sun/Pit of Shades are spells that use templates and thus hit both the rider and his mount.
5. These spells however do not wound but cause a characteristic test, one per model.
6. These hits would mean two tests, but this would brake rule example 5, because a character and his monster are one model.
Conclusion – We have no choice but to make one test using the rules as given on page 10.

DarkAngel - as Hover said.

You are trying to apply 2 Tests to 1 model, despite the rule (very specific) for purple sun stating you only cause *1* test per model.

You have to break no rules, and applying the most specific rule (1 test per model) this works - you only make one test per model.

HoverBoy wrote:Argh the circle begins...

Ok i'll tipe out as simply as possible:
1. The "Templaes" rule explains what happens when a character on a monster is hit by a template.
2. This replaces the 2nd step of the "Shooting at Ridden Monsters rules" whenever a template is involved thus eliminating the randomising rules.
3. It is then followed by step 3 the wounding rules.
4. Purple Sun/Pit of Shades are spells that use templates and thus hit both the rider and his mount.
5. These spells however do not wound but cause a characteristic test, one per model.
6. These hits would mean two tests, but this would brake rule example 5, because a character and his monster are one model.
Conclusion – We have no choice but to make one test using the rules as given on page 10.

Okay, I'll concede that, as I'm simply trying to find truth and not stroke my ego (not insinuating you are either) =) However, doing a cursory look at the battle magic spells, there is only one template spell the rule of "Templates" on pg.105 would apply to, and that's fire lvl.6. I don't know all of the spells from other army specific lores, but that irks me that they would include "spells" in the first sentance of the "Templates" exception rule for one spell.

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:It applies to "hits." It's not out of context as it specifically says, weapon or spell that uses a template.

Thats how it works for spells like Flame Storm, Penumraum Pendulum and other template/cannonball spells that cause wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:Okay, I'll concede that, as I'm simply trying to find truth and not stroke my ego (not insinuating you are either) =) However, doing a cursory look at the battle magic spells, there is only one template spell the rule of "Templates" on pg.105 would apply to, and that's fire lvl.6. I don't know all of the spells from other army specific lores, but that irks me that they would include "spells" in the first sentance of the "Templates" exception rule for one spell.

Yea it is weird but they seem to have stayed away from such spell in the BRB lores.

And i do get a bit touchy on this subject sorry if i came out as rude.

Nah it's cool Hoverboy. In my opinion, the point of this sub forum is to get to the bottom of rules questions. And sometimes it takes debates to get there. But as long as we get there relatively unscathed, it's cool. =D Plus, now that you have explained it step by step, it will always be there and easy to reference as I bring my laptop with me to games. One of the reasons is to pull up stuff on the net if we have a question lol.

Yep use the highest characteristic for what ever test and make one test. I also saw on one of the army facts that has a army specific spell that requires a toughness test or suffer a wound, and it said test on the highest. If a wound is caused then randomize who takes the wound. I will go look that up and paste it here. I thought it was interesting, and good to know.


Found it. It isn't a spell, but still useful to reference.

Q. When a model with a Plague Censer causes a wound on a ridden
monster or other model with separate components, how is the damage
distributed? (p46)
A. Take a Toughnesstest with the best Toughnessvalue
available to the ridden monster/chariot/multiple statline model
and then if the test is failed, randomise the wound as you would
for a missile hit.

Altho that is an interesting ruling GW made, we are talking about spells who remove whole models not cause wounds, with these things its all or nothing