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I have been thinking about Grey Hunters and Wolf Guard Pack Leader. In many cases I think Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are not necessary. I am not saying that they are not useful, but not always needed.

When and were they are great.

Foot-Slogging List: This is a great place for them. They don’t interfere with transports and maximum size and give you a LD of 9 and extra punch in close combat. With a Combi-Weapon and a Power Fist can make a great Anti-Armor addition.

-Moral: If you are Foot-Slogging you are most likely running something similar to a Gunline. You will be taking incoming fire and thing like Pining Test. This is were their Leadership of 9 will come in useful.
-Special Weapons: You can easily grab both Special Weapons and grab a Combi-Bolter makes for good addition.
-Close Combat: If you have you Power Weapon/Power Fist/MotW/Wolf Standard going you should do well in an Assault. Also with your LD 9 you have a better chance of pulling of your Counter-Attack.

Razorbacks:
-Moral: If you are in the Razorback they don’t need to make one. Once you are out of the Razorback you should be more than halfway across the battlefield and if you fail your Moral you will head back to your lines and regroup with ATSKNF. Also with your small numbers almost any losses with for you to make a Leadership Test so a LD of m9 will come in real handy.
-Special Weapons: You are going to have only one so a Combi-Bolter is a Good Addition.
-Close Combat: The extra Attack [most likely with a Power Weapon of some sort] will make a real difference.

Where some of the situations were they may not be necessary.

Rhinos:
-Moral: Not that necessary, if you are in the Rhino they don’t need to make one. Once you are out of the Rhino you should be more than halfway across the battlefield and if you fail your Moral you will head back to your lines and regroup with ATSKNF.
-Special Weapons: While you are on the Rhino you can fire both of them every turn. The WGPL will just get one shot, and if your Rhino survives past that shot you are down to one Special Weapon and Bolt Guns.
-Close Combat: If you have you Power Weapon/Power Fist/MotW/Wolf Standard going you should do well in an Assault. If you loose an Assault you will only loose it by one more than if you had a WGPL in it. With ATSKNF you can not be the victim of a Sweeping Advance.

Drop Pods:
-Moral: Not that necessary as most likely you are doing a Suicide Drop and why spend the extra points on a unit that is going to die. If you are lucky enough to survive failing a moral is not so bad. With ATSKNF you will just retreat to you lines.
-Special Weapons: The WGPL will just get one shot, and if survive past the one shot you are down to one Special Weapon and Bolt Guns.
-Close Combat: If you have you Power Weapon/Power Fist/MotW/Wolf Standard going you should do well in an Assault. If you loose an Assault you will only loose it by one more than if you had a WGPL in it. With ATSKNF you can not be the victim of a Sweeping Advance.

A Note:
2nd Grey Hunter with a Melta-Gun=15 points
WGPL with Combi-Melta=23 Points

A suicide pod with 5 grey hunters and a Wolf Guard with a combi-weapon is cheaper than 10 gray hunters with 2 special weapons. As this is a suicide pod, it is less likely that you will survive for another turn of shooting. If you really need the points elsewhere then this is a way to shave a few off.

svendrex wrote:A suicide pod with 5 grey hunters and a Wolf Guard with a combi-weapon is cheaper than 10 gray hunters with 2 special weapons. As this is a suicide pod, it is less likely that you will survive for another turn of shooting. If you really need the points elsewhere then this is a way to shave a few off.

It might be Cheeper, but if you drop a full 10 man Pack it will take almost twice the power to kill it, not counting Pie Plates.
Aslo if you drop 4 Grey Hunter Packs in Pods loaded with Plasma and Melta Weapons it may not be a Suicide Mission [witch I find distastefull anyways]

Well I use them on an off with (of course) mixed results. Using them Scouts is great. Had lots of Succes. I like to put Grey Hunters in my Land Raiders and use the LR's for moving to objectives. I run a 10 man unit with a Wolf Guard pack leader in my redeemer. This unit has always gotten me good stuff.

It is all in how you play them.

Dude, the effectiveness of any unit is judged by you, but also against what army you play.
In a dp, say vs, Tyranids, you have made a suicide squad. Congrats. But, if they get into cc, they will fight hard, and the Wolf Guard will do some damage before he goes down. It is almost always worth taking out as much of your opponents as possible.

Pack Leaders are rarely necessary and although I haven't read the entirety of the original post, I will point out that Wolf Guard Pack Leaders in Terminator Armour will become a troop choice, making a drop-pod a more tempting idea as you effectively gain a terminator as a troop choice and being a drop-pod unit (close to the enemy), the extra close combat punch and morale will go a long way.

I really use 'em as much as I can- don't leave home w/ out them. Often, that one shot is all I need, and there cheaper and better than PF GH, so... win- win.

Asgeirr Darkwolf wrote:I really use 'em as much as I can- don't leave home w/ out them. Often, that one shot is all I need, and there cheaper and better than PF GH, so... win- win.

???
Wolf Guard with Combi-Melta/Power Fist=43 points
2nd Grey Hunter with Sepcial Weapon/Power Fist=40 Points

This is a situation I am talking about. I running a Mechanized Rhino List, these are my two options:

Option #1: With a Wolf Guard: 318 Points
Wolf Guard Pack @ 33 pts (Power Armor; Combi-Plasmagun x1; Power Weapon x1)
Grey Hunters Pack @ 285 pts (Mark of the Wulfen; Wolf Standard; Bolt Pistol x6; Bolter x6; Close Combat Weapon x7; Plasmagun x1; Plasma Pistol x1; Power Fist x1)
Rhino (Dozer Blade; Extra Armor; Hunter Killer Missile; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter x2)

Option #2: No Wolf Guard: 300 points
Grey Hunters Pack @ 300 pts (Mark of the Wulfen; Wolf Standard; Bolt Pistol x7; Bolter x6; Close Combat Weapon x8; Plasmagun x2; Plasma Pistol x1; Power Fist x1
Rhino (Dozer Blade; Extra Armor; Hunter Killer Missile; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter x2)

18 point difference may not seem a lot, but the performance does. If you are talking Melta-Guns it’s a 13 point difference and Flamers and 8 point difference.

With Option #1 if I plan on moving and firing the whole game I would get off 4 Storm Bolter shots and 4 Plasma Gun Shots. The 2nd turn 4 Storm Bolter Shots, 2 Bolter Shots and 2 Plasma Gun Shots. Then when we get to the objective I only have one Plasma Gun to work with. Giving you a 12” two Plasma shot Bubble that will not worry most units
Now with this option I get Two Power Fist and a LD 9.

With Option #2 I have 2 Plasma Guns to Fire every turn. Giving you a 12” four Plasma Shot Bubble that will scare Terminator Squads.
You only have 1 Power Fist and a LD 8.

Now what the point is Options:
I can take option #1 that will excel in its job, Light Anti-Armor and Countering Assaults on your Position by bludgeoning Assaulting units.
I can take option #2 that will excel at its job, Light Anti-Armor and Countering Assaults by making sure less get to you.

Me I would rather kill 2 Terminators while they are 12” than have them get close to me and maybe kill 6 of my Grey Hunters in Close Combat.

I understand and agree with your logic, and many of those cases I would do the same. However, I see those units that you mentioned as not similar to my own- which are pretty plain and simple. 9 GH, 1 meltagun, MotW, Stnadard, and Rhino, with a WG Powerfist/ Combi Melta is 243, as opposed to 240 without the guard and a power fist/melta GH. When you take a wolf guard in such a unit, several things happen for just three points:

1. An increase in morale, something counterattacking SW desperately need (please don't argue this point, because it may be in part to my abyssmal luck.)

2. Same wargear, just with only one shot (often, that's all I get with a melta gun, so... maybe it's different iwth other guns).

3. An Extra PF Attack! God, that's killed so much, saved so much, I really can't express it.

Overall, I've done worse for three points.

Just my 3 cents.

Honestly, though, you've got great thread up here!

I think Asgeirr's right. To be spending 300+pts on a troop choice is not good. Not good at-all.
- You want a Rhino to be it's base 35pts, cheap and cheerful and there to do it's job - transport. Nothing more, nothing less.
- Power Fists and Power-weapons on Grey Hunters are a poor choice. The fist gets too few attacks and the power weapon has too limited a use (compared to MotW), combine this with their cost and they're not worth it. It is here that a WGPL comes in.
- Similarly, Plasma Pistols aren't worth it either. Too expensive and too limited a use. A Blood Claw gets more use out of a plasma pistol but even then I wouldn't take one.

Even so, I'm a firm believer that Rhino-Grey Hunters should not have a Wolf Guard leader. They are already fairly expensive all-ready and the WGPL limits their fire-power.
I don't believe in these cases the extra assault capability is needed, MotW and a Standard works fine almost all of the time and frankly there shouldn't be too much of a threat walking away from the 8x boltguns, 2x special weapons. A combi-weapon shouldn't be RELIED upon.
Grey Hunters should be used to shoot and the then RECIEVE the charge, not charge themselves. This means that the enemy will have been withered by the fire-power anyway and the standard, MotW and 3 base attacks will deal with any remaining enemies.
My typical Rhino/Hunter unit is:
10x Grey Hunter - 2x Melta, MotW, Standard, Rhino - 215pts. Coming in at over 100pts less than Anpu's, this unit can (reliably) take out both tanks and infantry whilst being able to look after itself in assault. I really struggle to see the need for the - more expensive - pack leader in a rhino-unit.

I believe Wolf Guard pack leaders should only be used with Grey Hunters in:
- Razorbacks
- Foot Slog
- Drop Pod (explained why in my earlier post)
- NOT a Rhino Unit.