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I am thinking of putting some attack bikes into my BA army. I don't see these units in many builds ATM, so are they a bad unit, or just not played? I would play them in a unit of 3 with 1-2 MM. I like them because they have 2 wounds with a 3+ armor save with T5 so they are hard to kill. They are relentless, can fire two weapons, and put lots of rounds into an opponent. Very maneuverable and fast I like them. True Ld checks will always happen, but are they a bad unit? What do you think Dakka?

Assuming your BA is a bike army, IMHO, C:SM do it better because they have command squad special weapons spam on bikes.

If not, then I think MM attack bikes are pretty good.

I suppose they're decent enough, though, personally, I'll take a MM/HF Land Speeder every time. They're about 20 points more expensive, but they can do everything an attack bike can do, can deep strike, have an armor value, a second, alternative weapon, don;t have to worry about leadership, and can go over terrain.

Attack bikes only shine if you plan on taking a ton of them, and need to save 20 points per.

bellumdominus wrote:I am thinking of putting some attack bikes into my BA army. I don't see these units in many builds ATM, so are they a bad unit, or just not played? I would play them in a unit of 3 with 1-2 MM. I like them because they have 2 wounds with a 3+ armor save with T5 so they are hard to kill. They are relentless, can fire two weapons, and put lots of rounds into an opponent. Very maneuverable and fast I like them. True Ld checks will always happen, but are they a bad unit? What do you think Dakka?

they're quite good with a multi melta. they're garbage with a heavy bolter. they're fast, cheap, and deadly to armored targets. their job is to deploy that multi melta. if they don't get clobbered, repeat until all their armored targets are toast. believe me people will start paying attention to your attack bikes if you start using them consistently. consider upgrading to a land speeder with a heavy flamer for 20 points per model for additional maneuverability and flexibility in target selection. In my opinion the speeders are almost always worth the extra points but if its just a question whether attack bikes are a good unit or not then yes absolutely, as long as they're equipped with a multi melta. I'd advise making them or land speeders a consistent feature in your armies. AF

AFs advice is great for C:SM armies, but don't BA armies have more attractive options in the FA slot?

I could be wrong about this, I don't own the BA codex.

they might.... I dont have the codex nearby.....

Baal Predators.

I Think the major drawback is FOC competition. They are good, its just there are better options... I say if you like them, get them. If you don't like bikes that much, grab speeders.

I do not have a bike army, The reason that I don't like speeders is that they are easy to cripple. I play against tau, and pulse rifles are a pain.

MATHHAMMER:
Attack bike
12 pulse rifle shots
4+ to hit
4+ to wound
3+ armor save

12x.5x.5x.3333333=1 wound


Land Speeder
12 pulse rifle shots
4+ to hit
5+ to glance or pen

12x.5x.3333333=2 hits

So against these weapons which I face a lot of LS would get hit more.

MM Attack Bikes and MM/HF Speeders fill very similar roles but are best suited for different builds. Land Speeders are more expensive but have duality and the ability to DS, which means you are almost guaranteed to get at least one shot off with them. They aren't a whole lot more survivable, but being vehicles you can get lucky and have damage results go your way, potentially meaning you last longer than an attack bike (get shaken and run away, immobilised and keep on shooting, weapon destroyed and run off and flame things). Being a vehicle also opens up some more options for movement blocking etc. For me the Deep Strike ability makes them easy to fit into basically any list, 70 odd points for an incredibly mobile accurate anti tank weapon is pretty good even if it only gets a single shot off.

Attack Bikes are cheaper, lose the heavy flamer (usually its the backup weapon anyway) and can assault. The main problem with them is getting them in close enough to use them, they are still pretty fragile (particularly to S8 weapons) and obvious targets if someone wants to control the middle of the field. You can turbo boost to improve your survivability but it doesn't help much if you die before you can move. The best way to counter this is to run plenty of vehicles, hide the Attack Bikes behind the tanks and then push them quickly into the center of the board. For BA this works just as well if not better, BA get discounted vehicles and they are fast as well, so you can keep the bikes safe for another turn (move everything up 12" and shoot first turn then make space for the bikes to move through second turn).

Basically Speeders can work in any list, but being more expensive they are harder to fit in (not every list needs them, you don't want to overdo the melta) while MM Attack Bikes really need to be in a mech based list to work well.

From your example the glance can't kill the Speeder and the Pen has a 33% chance of killing you, not as bad is you make out. A second round of fire would statistically kill the Attack Bike, while the Speeder has only at 66% chance of being destroyed (it might be a total mess but still alive, therefore not a kill point and generally being annoying to your opponent).
Btw if you are facing enough Pulse Rifle fire that you are worried about it killing Land Speeders then I wouldn't be worrying too much. It means that a) the Tau player is running plenty of Fire Warriors, which means less actual firepower and b) they are outside of a transport which mean you just need to be able to get close enough and the game is over.

Well, I don't play BA, but Attack Bikes are a favorite of mine in an All biker SMurf list.

MMAB's are very good as stated, but I'll need to support the Hvy Bolter bikers.
Though some will not like them, they have a certain charm about them being so cheap while being so good at their role.

They have a high output of shots and are cheap enough to throw away.
Not thrown away needlessly, but they are zippy enough to engage non-combat elements and can provide screening duty without needing to be 'that' close to the fight.

'Garbage' is far from what I would describe them. They are more flexible than MMAB and fly under the threat meter pretty well.

That said, I do run 2:1 of MMAB to Hvy Bolter Attack bike squadrons in the FA slots, so MMAB are very killy and take the spot light.

Sanctjud wrote:Well, I don't play BA, but Attack Bikes are a favorite of mine in an All biker SMurf list.

MMAB's are very good as stated, but I'll need to support the Hvy Bolter bikers.
Though some will not like them, they have a certain charm about them being so cheap while being so good at their role.

They have a high output of shots and are cheap enough to throw away.
Not thrown away needlessly, but they are zippy enough to engage non-combat elements and can provide screening duty without needing to be 'that' close to the fight.

'Garbage' is far from what I would describe them. They are more flexible than MMAB and fly under the threat meter pretty well.

That said, I do run 2:1 of MMAB to Hvy Bolter Attack bike squadrons in the FA slots, so MMAB are very killy and take the spot light.

HB bolter bikes are not cheap. 40 points. 3 shots is a not a high volume. S5 is not a decent strength for what you are paying for. I put heavy bolters in the same category as storm bolters. They are nice when you get them as part of the model (like a rhino) but suck when you have to pay for them (outside of a handful of niche cases) The only time in SM list I would ever pay for HBs is on dakka preds (2 for 25 points, a real bargain) and a typhoon speeder (whose man gun is 2x missiles).

The heavy bolter is just an underwhelming weapon. AP doesn't get the job done against meq. Volume of fire doesn't get the job done against horde armies. The strength and AP doesn't get the job done against MCs, and S5 chips the paint of most vehicles. They aren't horrible when you bring a bunch of them, but wouldn't it be better to use those points to buy more effective weapons?

Again, I don't use them for the heavy bolters solely.

I've done well with them shooting stuff in support of the rest of my list that has more dakka elsewhere and again, it's an all biker list, so I can force concentrate were I want.

It's not 40 points for the heavy bolter. It's 40 points for the whole package, including a very fast and relative to my other squads, cheap option of tying stuff up or wading into more dangerous areas of the board.

It's not just a heavy bolter... it's a heavy bolter and TL Bolter and follow up charge vs. Hordes.
There is alot more offensive punch out of them than just a heavy bolter, at least they are doing well with me.

Obviously, YMMV.

I've seen BA FNP jump lists use them to good effect. With FNP on MEQ, s8 weapons are suddenly at a premium. You can shoot the attack bikes or you can shoot the 30 marines flying at you. Land speeders just become targets for s6/7 weapons in that situation.

Ahh, yes, Suedo-Armor Saturation.

bellumdominus wrote:I do not have a bike army, The reason that I don't like speeders is that they are easy to cripple. I play against tau, and pulse rifles are a pain.

MATHHAMMER:
Attack bike
12 pulse rifle shots
4+ to hit
4+ to wound
3+ armor save

12x.5x.5x.3333333=1 wound


Land Speeder
12 pulse rifle shots
4+ to hit
5+ to glance or pen

12x.5x.3333333=2 hits

So against these weapons which I face a lot of LS would get hit more.

speeders are however more resilient than bikes when it comes to heavy weapons. a lascannon that gets past the targets cover save will insta-kill the attack biker, but has only a 1 in 3 chance of destroying the land speeder. additionally most armies do not have str 5 weapons as their standard issue. land speeders are alot harder to take down with bolters than gossip would have it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
additionally you don't always need a multi melta. sometimes in fact it doesnt do you a bit of god. a heavy flamer is death to practically any light infantry target in the game. multiple heavy flamers can roast heavy infantry like space marines too. my advice: pay the extra 20 points, double your target selection, improve your mobility, improve your resilience. the place for attack bikes is inside your normal bike squads.

In a jump list, AB's are tons better than speeders. AB's are more 3+ save guys, they can get FNP to be very resilient against small arms etc.

I would arm them with multi-meltas, MMAB's are awesome

So Attack bikes are cheaper while speeders are more survivable. 20 points more for a speeder with similar weaponry.

I should have said this before but my army already had 2 assault squads, a librarian, and a pred with AC and LC. My anti-tank and anti infantry is taken care of. The attack bikes are serving the role of dealing footslogging squads that my bolt pistols can't reach or that my pred would waste shots on, popping light transports, tying up units in short assaults, and turbo boosting to objectives to contest at the end of the game.

I think that for their money they are a good multi-purpose unit, that can accomplish many different tasks. I would keep one with a HB for some would allocation cheese. It also gives me the option of getting a sangiunary priest on a bike for 85 in larger games, to make them even more durable.

B.D.

Bikes are ok, but are kinda useless in a heavy terrain battle with hills and brush and rubble, but LS can fly over that and can attack and get out of their. Fast.

Attack bikes are only useless when compared to Speeders in jumping over impassible terrain.
Regular terrain is not a huge issue. What of going through terrain? If you take that initial DT test and make sure to just not end or start in terrain again, you can't die.

I run an all biker list and have done heavy terrain boards. It doesn't make them useless. It's annoying but entirely doable.

Yea sure but the bikes don't have the deep strike option, which comes in real handy

I think that for their money they are a good multi-purpose unit, that can accomplish many different tasks. I would keep one with a HB for some would allocation cheese. It also gives me the option of getting a sangiunary priest on a bike for 85 in larger games, to make them even more durable.

ironhand45 wrote:Yea sure but the bikes don't have the deep strike option, which comes in real handy

And, DS has it's own pros and cons. It doesn't make it a better aspect.
Bikers are small enough to hide behind things like Rhinos and Terrain... as good as immune and able to reliably commit on turn 2 should you need to, whereas Speeders DSing in are not as reliable to show up.

Speeders being unable to get locked in combat is as good as the bikers being able to be locked in combat, both are good, both are similar but different. More importantly, both are cheap enough to include in any list.

Sanctjud wrote:

ironhand45 wrote:Yea sure but the bikes don't have the deep strike option, which comes in real handy

And, DS has it's own pros and cons. It doesn't make it a better aspect.

the option to deep strike improves your flexibility. there's no down side to having the option to deep strike.
AF

AF: DS does improve mobility, but you don't know when your unit will come in, and if a DSM occurs then the unit could be in trouble. But there is no downside to having the option.

yeah. that's all I mean. when I face an opponent that has loads of firepower I deep strike the speeders in order to get the first punch in. attack bikes dont have the option. they'll almost always have to endure a turn of enemy shooting before they have an opportunity to shoot back.

Take the bikes if you want, but if you do, give them all the same loadout.

The speeder also could be a small transport for scouts.

ironhand45 wrote:The speeder also could be a small transport for scouts.

Sorry but that would be the Land Speeder Storm.

Exactly they can be used as a transport