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So in the News and Rumors forum, someone had brought up an off the wall thought:

If BT, Ordo Hereticus and SoB are all 'Witch Hunters', why not take three armies and make something completely new.

Stay with me here. All of them come from similar source material (Crusading Knights, Inquisition, etc.) and have a similar focus. GW has had no problem moving in new directions, what if they did in this case?

Fluff Example: Based on the Plagues of Unbelief and other instances of corruption from within, the Ecclesiarcy and Inquisition find themselves overwhelmed by internal threats and unable to handle the sheer volume. The Ecclesiarchy obviously taps their militant arm in the Sisters, but the Sisters are only so many. The Ordos Hereticus and Sepultrum are overwhelmed in dealing with the instances presented to them, even with a drastic build up of inquisitorial forces.

Seeing that their current resources are insufficient for the task at hand, they reach out to the Chapters for assistance. There has always been one chapter that Accepts Any Challenge and is aligned philosophically with much of what they are doing: The Black Templars. And so the Crusade Within is born again. In the style of the 'War on Terror', this is an unending war to root out corruption and protect the very soul of the Imperium from forces internal and external.

Rules Example:Combined BT, SoB, Inquisition codex creating a dynamic close combat, short range force focused on psychic defense, purity and the cleansing flames of faith.
It is a short jump to allow BT to get faith and allow a new cross-polination of ideas and rules between the forces.
This would not just be cram sisters and BT into one codex, but something completely new.

So I put this before you, how would this codex work? What crazy ideas can we come up with?

Things I don't want to see:
- Combining codexes leads to less of my BTs/Sisters waaaaaaahhhhh. Take it to another thread
- Sisters are too sexy / not sexy enough. Take it to another thread
- This won't work because of X. This is a positive thread discussing how it could work if it happened, not why it won't work.

Things I want to see:- Ideas for a combined Codex, both fluff and mechanics

The BT and Inquistion don't sit eye to eye, and the BT currently do not ally themselves with any force that uses combat psykers. Other than the Grey Knights.
Perhaps limiting unit choices would get around this e.g. if you take unit X you can take units A, B, C but if you take unit Y you can only take units A & C

Thoughts. I will edit this as we go to encorporate ideas.

HQs:
BT (Grand) Marshal (Unlocks BT Tac as troops), taking allows the fall forward rule for all friendly units (BT)
Emperor's Champ (Unlocks BT Assault as troops), taking allows a Vow for all friendly units.
Canoness (Unlocks Sisters as Troops), adds an additional type of act of faith for all friendly units - Faithful
Hereticus Inquisitor (Unlocks ISTs as Troops), adds ability to designate a single enemy squad with the Psyker special rule


Elites:
Sword Brethren - Assault Term Squad (BT)
Celestians - Holy Hatred (Faithful)
Redemption Seekers (Mixed Repentia, BT unit with faith. LW KP rule? Individual models chosen as one elite instead of a squad?) (Faithful) (BT?)
Chaplain - 1-3 per choice? (Faithful) (BT)
Priests/Confessor/Missionary - Adding to a squad makes the squad Faithful. Upgrade character, not IC. (Faithful)
Arco-Flagellants?
Assassins?(not pure enough for the new Crusade?)

Sisters Squads (Faithful)
Assault Squad (No JP) (BT)
Initiates - Tac Squad (BT)
ISTs


Troops
Militia/Redemptionists/Zealots
Neophytes (BT)

Fast Attack
Seraphim (Faithful)
Dominions (Faithful)
Immolators
Land Speeder
Bike Squad (HLance wielding) (BT)

Heavy
Exorcist
Penitent Engines
Crusader/Redeemer Land Raiders
Dreadnought
Vindicators


New Rules.
Each HQ adds a 'Chapter Tactics' addition based on type. All are Only for 'Faithful' and 'BT' units.
- Vow is army wide now and only if EC is present.
- Fall forward is army wide and only if Marshal is present.
- Uncover the Unclean: Hereticus inquisitor can designate an enemy IC or squad as having the Psyker special rule.

BT squads can be made faithful with addition of a faithful upgrade character (Priest) or joined by a faithful IC (Chap, Canoness, etc)?
Only restrictions on mixing are which squads become troops based on HQ
All units with BT or Faithful special rules have PE: Psyker.



What else am I not thinking of?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Medium of Death wrote:The BT and Inquistion don't sit eye to eye, and the BT currently do not ally themselves with any force that uses combat psykers. Other than the Grey Knights.
Perhaps limiting unit choices would get around this e.g. if you take unit X you can take units A, B, C but if you take unit Y you can only take units A & C

That's why they are allying with the Ordo Hereticus (the most anti-psyker Ordo) and the Ecclesiarchy, where they do see eye to eye. All three of them hate psykers, witches and the Plague of Unbelief. What little differences they have would pale before the threat arrayed before them.

pretre wrote:
That's why they are allying with the Ordo Hereticus (the most anti-psyker Ordo) and the Ecclesiarchy, where they do see eye to eye. All three of them hate psykers, witches and the Plague of Unbelief. What little differences they have would pale before the threat arrayed before them.

This is true.

I think Assassins should be allowed. Arco Flagellants too, If only to tie in with the Penitent Engine.

Medium of Death wrote:
I think Assassins should be allowed. Arco Flagellants too, If only to tie in with the Penitent Engine.

I'm still unsure on the Assassins. Seems a bit jarring to the new fluff. I'll mark them as questionable.

Why would I want Black Templar in my Sisters of Battle codex? Why would a Black Templars player want Sisters of Battle in their Black Templars codex? If I wanted to play Marines I'd go play Grey Knights.

An allies supplement ala spearhead would be more than enough to cover this.

:Edit Removed OT:

The idea is to discuss How a whole new idea for a codex (not a rehashed old one).

Try reading the OP's topic:

"Codex Witchhunters 5.0 - Can combining BT and WH work?"

If he didn't want people to talk about combining BT and WH, then he shouldn't have made a thread whose title stated that the thread was about combining BT and WH.

:removed venom:

The rules don't say I have to agree with your idea, nor do they say I need to support it... only that I need to be polite. I am trying to be so to the best of my ability...

To be honest, I really don't understand why you're raising such a big deal about my post. You titled your thread "combining BT and WH", which means that people are talking about combining BT and WH. If you don't want to talk about combining BT and WH, then don't mention combining BT and WH. It's really that simple.

As for the latter part: I don't support the idea of combining BT and WH in any way whatsoever. I read your post, yes. Your idea is, to me, atrocious at the conceptual level, and an enormous, unreasonable amount of tweaking would be necessary to make it merely grudgingly acceptable-- to make it "good" would be a nigh-impossible and incredibly thankless task that I have no desire to undertake.

If you REALLY want me to post a suggestion, then my suggestion is simply to drop it, ask a mod the close the thread, and never speak of the idea again, as that is what I would do. *shrug* You asked.

pretre wrote:Things I don't want to see:
- Combining codexes leads to less of my BTs/Sisters waaaaaaahhhhh Take it to another thread
- This won't work because of X. This is a positive thread discussing how it could work if it happened, not why it won't work.

I really don't think Melissia is trying to get the thread locked, if anything your aggression will. She's simply voicing her opinion, as people do on the internet and on forums. It's an interesting idea, but you should be willing to face criticism, both positive and negative. Melissia is providing some negative criticism. Deal with it.

Popper states that a theory cannot ever be proved right, but can only be proved wrong. Theories can be strengthened but supportive evidence or ruined by contradictory evidence but no theory can be fact.
On a similar note you should be willing to stand-up to your critics. Just because no-one says it's a bad idea, doesn't mean its a good idea.
If you can 'prove' Melissia wrong, then your idea's been strengthened. if you can't then it only exposes the weaknesses you appear to be trying to hide.

Maybe you're a total optimist, maybe you're trying to eptomise the idea of 'ignorance is bliss'? I don't know.

Either way, Melissia is not actively trying to get your thread locked and you should be willing to face criticism and try to over-come it, otherwise your idea has no strength.


Finally, on a totally business note - and this is the only real comment I'm providing in regards to the idea as a whole - it wouldn't work. 2 armies, 2 codices and 2 ranges of models will sell better than this ever would.

Just to point out. The Ordo Heriticus ins't pure anti-pysker. They hunt herictics.

The BT are despised or at least fall under a lot of suspision from the Heriticus for having more than 1000 marines. There was once a short story and accompaning scenario on the GW website once.

But at least someone is trying to do a WH 'dex that has Inq involved.

Thank you for your feedback. It is noted.

Finally, on a totally business note - and this is the only real comment I'm providing in regards to the idea as a whole - it wouldn't work. 2 armies, 2 codices and 2 ranges of models will sell better than this ever would.

The idea does not reduce the number of models, but does reduce the number of codexes. In my opinion, it is better to have 1 updated codex than no updated codexes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

VikingScott wrote:Just to point out. The Ordo Heriticus ins't pure anti-pysker. They hunt herictics.

The BT are despised or at least fall under a lot of suspision from the Heriticus for having more than 1000 marines. There was once a short story and accompaning scenario on the GW website once.

But at least someone is trying to do a WH 'dex that has Inq involved.

Agreed. I think this is a case of squinting past your allies foibles for the greater good. Something rarely done in the Imperium, but which could benefit it greatly.


:EDIT: Removed a bunch of responses to OT. To be clear, I don't care if you have criticism, I care if you're here to talk about how to make the idea work. If you want to talk about why the BT and SOB would never work together, you can start your own thread.

Please post ideas about SOB, BT, Inq rules/fluff, interactions and any combination of those.

pretre wrote:If you want to talk about why the BT and SOB would never work together, you can start your own thread.

Or I can save space and simply tell you that it's almost as bad an idea of Blood Angels and Tyranids deciding to be Best Friends Forever (tm).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote: I don't support the idea of combining BT and WH in any way whatsoever. I read your post, yes. Your idea is, to me, atrocious at the conceptual level, and an enormous, unreasonable amount of tweaking would be necessary to make it merely grudgingly acceptable-- to make it "good" would be a nigh-impossible and incredibly thankless task that I have no desire to undertake.

So wait a sec, it's OK to trample over the GK fluff but not the Sisters Fluff?

If I were to combine the BT & Sisters, I'd make the Sisters totally subservient to, and clearly inferior to the BT, playing much the same minor role as Lesser Daemons in Codex: Chaos Marines. Basic Sisters become WS2 BS3 non-Scoring Troops (but don't take a FOC slot), former Sisters Tanks BT Razorback / Predator variants. Also, make the Repentia "sexier", more naked. Take sexism in the 40k universe to a whole new level.

pretre wrote:So in the News and Rumors forum, someone had brought up an off the wall thought:

I am that someone!

It makes sense... BT *hate* psykers/witches as do SOB it would make sense for GW to do a 2-in-1. They have lots of crusader-y stuff

The idea does not reduce the number of models, but does reduce the number of codexes. In my opinion, it is better to have 1 updated codex than no updated codexes.

This is my view. There is a BT kit apparantly but why would you buy it? You are better off with Salamanders, Blood Emos, Space Puppies or Rowboats than BT.

Melissia wrote:Why would I want Black Templar in my Sisters of Battle codex? Why would a Black Templars player want Sisters of Battle in their Black Templars codex?

Is this the start of a new Reese's commercial?

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Melissia wrote:Why would I want Black Templar in my Sisters of Battle codex? Why would a Black Templars player want Sisters of Battle in their Black Templars codex?

Is this the start of a new Reese's commercial?

or possibly a really strange erotic fanfic.

Can we keep it on topic guys?

pretre wrote:Can we keep it on topic guys?

By "on topic", I'm assuming you're trying to limit all other posting to empty, content-less "attaboys" and "good jobs".

My suggestions for you:
1. If you can't take the criticism of what is a really poor idea, badly-executed, then don't post it in the first place.
2. If you do post something foolish (i.e. Sisters & Templars in a seamlessly-combined Codex), then you'll get the posts that you deserve.

So far, nobody has broken any of the "rules", aside from you trying to stifle discussion and criticism. This suggestion is about as silly as the other threads about boobmarines and Sisters of Slaanesh.

And quite frankly, I'd rather discuss Sisters of Slaanesh with Melissa, than have my Templars and Sisters fused into a single blob for the sake of rushing something out the door. I'm patient. I can wait another 5 years for a new Templars and/or Sisters book to come out. It's really not a big deal, any more than I really care about GW releasing Codex: Inquistion next year. After all, it's not like GW is coming to my house and taking away my minis.

Okay, how the hell do you reconcile the two armies? Seriously?

Black Templars shouldn't be getting acts of faith. Sisters of Battle shouldn't have access to Dreadnoughts. If you try to bring the two parts together, you'd have to weaken both, and make sure their rules don't intermingle too much. Otherwise, you risk enormous balance problems.

On a fluff level, any combination of them would have to ignore the previous animosity built up. It COULD work, but it really goes against the feels of both armies. Why is a crusade of Space Marines fighting on the fringes of Imperial space permanently allied with the Sisters of Battle, who often face more interior work? Why are the Black Templars so chummy with the Inquisition compared to other chapters? These questions need to be answered before any compromise can be found to even let the two armies fight together.

pretre wrote:Things I don't want to see:
- Combining codexes leads to less of my BTs/Sisters waaaaaaahhhhh. Take it to another thread
- This won't work because of X. This is a positive thread discussing how it could work if it happened, not why it won't work.

Yes, no thanks. I don't think a new thread should just for saying "Witchhunters and Black Templars should not be together!"

JohnHwangDD wrote:

pretre wrote:Can we keep it on topic guys?

By "on topic", I'm assuming you're trying to limit all other posting to empty, content-less "attaboys" and "good jobs".

My suggestions for you:
1. If you can't take the criticism of what is a really poor idea, badly-executed, then don't post it in the first place.
2. If you do post something foolish (i.e. Sisters & Templars in a seamlessly-combined Codex), then you'll get the posts that you deserve.

Guilty conscience? I was referring to the 'erotic fanfic' and 'reeses commercial comments'. If you want to discuss things on topic, that's fine.

And quite frankly, I'd rather discuss Sisters of Slaanesh with Melissa, than have my Templars and Sisters fused into a single blob for the sake of rushing something out the door. I'm patient. I can wait another 5 years for a new Templars and/or Sisters book to come out. It's really not a big deal, any more than I really care about GW releasing Codex: Inquistion next year. After all, it's not like GW is coming to my house and taking away my minis.

Why are you so hostile about it? I am proposing a thought experiment, if you're not interested why are you coming here to berate me?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necroman wrote:Okay, how the hell do you reconcile the two armies? Seriously?

Black Templars shouldn't be getting acts of faith. Sisters of Battle shouldn't have access to Dreadnoughts. If you try to bring the two parts together, you'd have to weaken both, and make sure their rules don't intermingle too much. Otherwise, you risk enormous balance problems.

On a fluff level, any combination of them would have to ignore the previous animosity built up. It COULD work, but it really goes against the feels of both armies. Why is a crusade of Space Marines fighting on the fringes of Imperial space permanently allied with the Sisters of Battle, who often face more interior work? Why are the Black Templars so chummy with the Inquisition compared to other chapters? These questions need to be answered before any compromise can be found to even let the two armies fight together.

Did you read the first and second posts? THe idea IS to intermingle them and balance it. That's the whole point of the post.

Again, I proposed one reason for them to ally and asked for more. I thought thematically they were a good match.

Thematically, they are a poor match.

Templars crusade to expand the Emperor's reach.

Sisters defend and hold what is already within the Imperium.

Templars would be more likely to work with vanilla SMs than Sisters.

Sisters would be more likely to work with Imperial Guard than Templars.

And seriously, John, is 'Or I can save space and simply tell you that it's almost as bad an idea of Blood Angels and Tyranids deciding to be Best Friends Forever (tm)."
what you consider discussing something?

There's a difference between constructive criticism and just trying to wind someone up. It is the same a M coming in and saying no, way not my SoB. It's not adding to the conversation, it is detracting from it.

I am open to serious points (the reason I have replied to people who have fluff arguments and such).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Thematically, they are a poor match.

Templars crusade to expand the Emperor's reach.

Sisters defend and hold what is already within the Imperium.

Templars would be more likely to work with vanilla SMs than Sisters.

Sisters would be more likely to work with Imperial Guard than Templars.

See? That's discussion. My point is that the BT are convinced that the greatest enemy is Within. The Internal Crusade.

The theme I'm talking about is the Crusading and Religious aspects, that's where I was coming from.

I agree that in the current space they aren't a great match, but they could be with tweaking.

The Black Templar are convinced the greatest enemy is within? Then why do they go on crusades across the galaxy?

Religious aspects? Just because they're based on Christianity doesn't mean they have to be together all the time.

An allied codex would suggest that Black Templars regularly fight with the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy. How did they get so chummy? Why are those groups, who are typically suspicious of Space Marines, letting a successor chapter of the Imperial Fists be their best friends?

Why not just have a game of apocalypse, where both sides can fight together without mixing the armies? Your story justification is literally just that.

pretre wrote:Did you read the first and second posts? THe idea IS to intermingle them and balance it. That's the whole point of the post.

I did. My question is HOW you intermingle them without mutilating either force.

Necroman wrote:The Black Templar are convinced the greatest enemy is within? Then why do they go on crusades across the galaxy?

Sorry if I was unclear. They are convinced as part of new fluff that the greatest enemy is within. After the existing time frame.

Religious aspects? Just because they're based on Christianity doesn't mean they have to be together all the time.

True.

An allied codex would suggest that Black Templars regularly fight with the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy. How did they get so chummy? Why are those groups, who are typically suspicious of Space Marines, letting a successor chapter of the Imperial Fists be their best friends? How are the Ecclisarchy allowed to command vast groups of MALE fighters?

Not command, allied with. I explained above that the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy let slide their animosity to work together with the BT.

If they're not a good match, and require tweaking, then doesn't that tell you this is a poor idea?

JohnHwangDD wrote:If they're not a good match, and require tweaking, then doesn't that tell you this is a poor idea?

Because I think it is still a good idea.

A lot of armies were tweaked as editions changed.

Why would the armies be listed in the same codex if they only fought in one campaign together?

That's like saying all the Space Marine chapters should be in the Imperial Guard codex because they often fight together. They're still separate armies, you know.

Necroman wrote:Why would the armies be listed in the same codex if they only fought in one campaign together?

That's like saying all the Space Marine chapters should be in the Imperial Guard codex because they often fight together. They're still separate armies, you know.

The idea is a more permanent arrangement. A lasting alliance, a merging of forces.

@OP: It appears you're alone in that assessment of that idea. Everybody else who's posted more than once thinks it's a poor idea.

You still fail to explain *why* it's a good idea, or why it should be implemented. Because (only) you think so? That's an exceptionally poor argument. Because GW could cut out a Codex, advancing later Codex releases by an average of 2 or 3 months? That's not a strong argument, either.


Necroman's poin is excellent. If you look at the OOB for Armageddon, PDF, Guard, Sisters, Marines, Templars, Deathwatch, Stormtroopers, and Titans *all* fought together on Armageddon. At that rate, you're looking at Codex: Imperials (minus Grey Knights).