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In the Beastmaster unit entry, only the beastmaster has Power from Pain. None of the beasts in the unit do. Now, the rule:

Dark Eldar feed on the souls of their foes, becoming imbued with supernatural might and resilience, eventually turning into uncontrollable killing machines, blind to all discipline. Whenever a Dark Eldar unit with this rule destroys a non-vehicle enemy unit, it immediately gains a 'pain token'. Place a marker with that unit; a coin or trophy will do. Each pain token confers a special rule to the entire unit, as shown in the list below. For example, a unit with one pain token has the Feel No Pain rule, one with two pain tokens has Feel No Pain and Furious Charge, etc. It might happen that several of your units are involved in a combat against one or more enemy units, which are destroyed because of the assault's results. In this case, you receive one pain token per enemy unit destroyed, and then randomly assign them amongst your units in that combat. Note that pain tokens can be gained by other means- some units even start the game with one!

The vital parts of the rule are bolded. What I'm trying to determine, really, is whether a unit where some models have Power from Pain and some do not will follow this rule. I'm hoping to use a large unit of Khymerae (4+ invulnerable save beasts) under the assumption that they will benefit from Feel No Pain if they have a beastmaster in the unit and a pain token. To me, the simplest way to apply the rule is as if the entire unit has Power from Pain while a beastmaster is alive, rather than treating models differently (otherwise, if a Khymerae makes the final wound to destroy an enemy unit, would the beastmaster get a token?).

I've also thought about some tricks with the Sharing the Pain rule with characters, which reads:

If a Dark Eldar unit is joined by one or more characters with pain tokens, all of the pain tokens for the unit and the characters that have joined it are pooled. We call this 'sharing the pain'. For instance a unit of Grotesques (one pain token) is joined by a Haemonculus (one pain token)- all models in that unit will therefore have Feel No Pain and Furious Charge. If an independent Character leaves a unit with one or more pain tokens, you must divide them as equally as possible. The owning player decides who gets any remaining tokens- just be sure to tell your opponent.

What I would like to do is take a minimum unit of 3 Wracks (30 points, start the game with a pain token) with an IC attached (Lelith). She then immediately leaves the Wrack unit on the first turn, taking the pain token with her, and joins a unit of Wyches, who started the game with a Haemonculus attached (starts the game with a pain token). The Haemonculus then leaves the Wyche unit, leaving the two pain tokens behind (one on Lelith, one on the Wyches), and joins the Wracks. It seems a bit tricky, but having Lelith and a full Wyche unit begin the game with two pain tokens seems quite powerful.

I guess, in summary, I ask whether the Power From Pain rules are supposed to be simple and easy to understand, or are they open to allow strange combinations of units benefiting from rules when done correctly? It's hard to argue intent until an FAQ comes out, which I hope does soon as I plan on using the rules as written to my advantage in the above situations if others happen to see it the same way.

-Cough Link in Sig Cough- My my I do have a bad cough today!

But, to save you time:

DE.25.01 – Q: How exactly does the “Power from Pain” special rule work for a unit without the “Power from Pain” special rule which has been joined by an Independent Character with the “Power from Pain” special rule? Can they generate Pain Tokens? Do they benefit from the rule at all? What happens if the Independent Character leaves the unit or is killed?

A: Units without the “Power from Pain” special rule which have been joined by an Independent Character with the “Power from Pain” special rule are unable to generate Pain Tokens on their own from the destruction of enemy units unless all models in the unit somehow have the “Power from Pain” special rule. This is because the “Power from Pain” special rule requires “a Dark Eldar unit with this rule” to do the destroying, which the unit as a whole does not have. However, should they somehow get a Pain Token from another source the entire unit, including models without the “Power from Pain” rule, will benefit from any effects granted by the Pain Tokens so long as at least one model with the “Power from Pain” rule is still alive in the unit. If the Independent Character leaves the unit, the Pain Tokens must be split evenly, as per the “Power from Pain” special rule, even though the unit does not have the “Power from Pain” special rule. If the Independent Character is killed, the Pain Tokens are not lost, they simply remain with the unit. [R.a.W]

DE.30.01 – Q: How exactly does the “Power from Pain” special rule work for a unit of Beastmasters that have some models with the “Power from Pain” special rule and some without? Can they generate Pain Tokens? Do they benefit from the rule at all?

A: Units of Beastmasters that have some models with the “Power from Pain” special rule and some without are unable to generate Pain Tokens on their own from the destruction of enemy units until all models in the unit have the “Power from Pain” special rule. This is because the “Power from Pain” special rule requires “a Dark Eldar unit with this rule” to do the destroying, which the unit as a whole does not have. However, should they somehow get a Pain Token from another source the entire unit, including models without the “Power from Pain” rule, will benefit from any effects granted by the Pain Tokens so long as at least one model with the “Power from Pain” rule is still alive in the unit. [R.a.W]

Ain't it great that we need an FAQ before the codex even bloody comes out?

Gwar! wrote:
Ain't it great that we need an FAQ before the codex even bloody comes out?

Maybe for next codex GW releases Errata/FAQ before the codex itself?

It would be nice if GW, ya know, had an editor or something to make sure it wouldn't NEED such extensive Errata.

I'm surprised that you came to the conclusion that the unit cannot generate pain tokens but benefits from having them? Surely it has to be both or none? The rule seems to say that a Dark Eldar unit with Power from Pain gets a token from destroying an enemy unit, and a Dark Eldar unit with Power from Pain gets special rules for having pain tokens. How can the first part of the rule not apply, whereas the second part does?

I was hoping the answer was going to be as simple as a unit of ten models, one of which has Power from Pain, counts as a 'Dark Eldar unit with Power from Pain'. My my, if it does end up being this complex there is no chance of trying to explain it to an opponent without coming off as 'that guy'. shudders.

Oaka wrote: Surely it has to be both or none?

No, it doesn't.

The rule explicitly states that for a Pain Token is generated only when "a Dark Eldar unit with this rule[...]", while the rule for benefiting says "Each pain token confers a special rule to the entire unit."

If not every model has PfP, then it is not a Dark Eldar unit with PfP, but the rule grants the Special rule to the entire unit, meaning the unit doesn't need to all have PfP to benefit, but only one model needs it (since if no models have PfP, then there is nothing to tell you what the Pain Tokens do).

As for trying to explain it, simply show them the explanation I have written there and explain to them that it is how the rule works.

Why don't you think that "Each pain token confers a special rule to the entire unit" isn't referencing the 'unit' that has already been defined earlier in the paragraph as "a Dark Eldar unit with Power From Pain"?

Oaka wrote:Why don't you think that "Each pain token confers a special rule to the entire unit" isn't referencing the 'unit' that has already been defined earlier in the paragraph as "a Dark Eldar unit with Power From Pain"?

Because it doesn't say it is?

It doesn't say "an entire unit with the PfP Special rule", so it doesn't mean that. It means the Entire unit, without any qualifiers or restrictions.

Well... it has to define a unit somehow? Otherwise, based on how you're saying it, it can apply to any unit in the game, because it doesn't apply to the restrictions of a Dark Eldar unit with Power From Pain. If the rules were to take your interpretation, team tournaments (which are getting quite popular in my area), would allow Haemonculi from a Dark Eldar team to lead squads from any other codex, giving them the benefits of Power From Pain. So three 20-man Necron Warrior units, each with a Dark Eldar Haemonculus attached at the start of the game, would have Feel No Pain in a team tournament? The 'unit' that is mentioned in the "Each pain token confers a special rule to the entire unit" only makes sense if it refers to the "Dark Eldar unit with Power From Pain". I appreciate your FAQ as being the best explanation for the problem currently, but I can't possibly see that ruling being taken seriously in most gaming groups. GW needs to FAQ it as either 'all models in the unit need to have Power From Pain for the rule to take effect', or 'only one model in a unit needs to have Power From Pain for the entire unit to count as having it'. This in-between stuff is just going to be debated until the cows come home (which is only a valid phrase for lazy farmers who won't fix holes in their pasture fences).

Firstly, Team games are not covered by the rules at all, so it's all house rules at that point anyway.

Secondly, GW don't need to FAQ it at all, because the RaW is completely clear.

I still find it somewhat odd that GW gives the Beastmaster PfP, yet you find that it doesn't work.

This seems like a "DOM doesn't benefit from Warp Field even-though it is one of his listed special rules"-type thing.

I fully realize what RAW says, but I also keep GWs track-record in mind.

What way the FAQ will go is anybodys guess. I am almost certain that GW will dumb down/nerf PfP as they only now realize the nifty tricks that are immediately apparent to anybody else.

Steelmage99 wrote:I still find it somewhat odd that GW gives the Beastmaster PfP, yet you find that it doesn't work.

This seems like a "DOM doesn't benefit from Warp Field even-though it is one of his listed special rules"-type thing.

I fully realize what RAW says, but I also keep GWs track-record in mind.

What way the FAQ will go is anybodys guess. I am almost certain that GW will dumb down/nerf PfP as they only now realize the nifty tricks that are immediately apparent to anybody else.

Errm... what?

Beastmasters PfP does work...

What they can't do is Generate Pain Tokens if there are any beasts with them, as not everyone has PfP. They can still get tokens from other sources.

Maybe I wasn't too clear.

Since we agree that a unit containing no models with PfP can still benefit from pain token (gained another way), I find it odd that GW decides to give the Beastmaster PfP at all.

RAW aside, just like in the DOM case, it isn't too far fetched that GW gave the Beastmaster PfP for a reason, and since we have already determined that that reason is not for him to be able to gain the benefits from token, as that doesn't require PfP, it can only be for him to be able to actually generate the tokens themselves.

(Quick side question; Can Beastmasters be taken without taking any beasts?)

This might be for him to be able to generate tokens when alone...or it might be because GW screwed up the wording (as usual).

Yes, I know what RAW says.
And I am waiting to see what the FAQ will say.

Steelmage99 wrote:Since we agree that a unit containing no models with PfP can still benefit from pain token (gained another way), I find it odd that GW decides to give the Beastmaster PfP at all.

Woaaaah! Hold on there Bub!

A unit without any models with PfP but a Pain Token DO NOT benefit from PfP! At least one model needs PfP for the unit to benefit, but all models need PfP to be able to make Tokens themselves.

And yes, the Beasts are Optional.

Oh.

I guess I'll better hold my tongue 'till I'm less tired and actually have the codex in my hands then.

Steelmage99 wrote:Oh.

I guess I'll better hold my tongue 'till I'm less tired and actually have the codex in my hands then.

Fair enough.

Fun Misunderstanding there!

Gwar, so you're syaing the PfP works on the beasts, etc, but the unit can't generate a toke due to some quirk in wording of PfP? Haven't read much/anything about DE yet.

Isn't their a Hq that starts with a free token, or something the throws them out, couldn't this be the thought of use, starting with two tokens? and giving the bests FC (is it FC for 1?)?

Key thing to understand this is that benefiting from pain tokens and generating pain tokens are not the same thing.

What gwar's saying is the unit of Beastmaster with beasts can benefit from a having a pain token but it can't generate pain tokens. How that can happen is described in the original post. Heam. starts game with the unit then leaves turn one, the owning player then chooses how the one odd token gets destributed aka. the heam. walks away empty handed and the beastmaster unit cackles with delight at what they stole.

Now if the beastmaster were to have his entire squad killed leaving just him self. He alone my benefit from and generate pain tokens

Haemunclui are an HQ IC and start the game with a pain token. Urien The special char. Haemunculi gives 1d3 tokens to wracks or grotesques only.

Cheers, so from that position, it is possible to have a fully stacked BM unit turn two (one, even but we need to drop the slow IC's off ). which would mean FC, FnP and fearless?

sure if you really think a beastmaster unit is worth buying 5 haemunculi just for the tokens. I personally can think of better uses for those 5 tokens myself but what ever floats your boat.

Oh I'm sure there are wiser ways of using them, it was just me looking at what could happen etc etc

And it's not a "quirk" in the wording, it's simply how the rules work.

Why is it that whenever something works differently to how people want it to, it's suddenly "an exploit" or "a quirk" or "silly RaW".