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Facing the new DE with my team mates for Adepticon and decided to run them up against nids...wanted to take an all infantry list as DE have some poisoned shooting MCs would probably not like...and Dark Lances shearing off wounds sounds awful. So here's my list and their list. What tactics do you think I should go about or how do you think I should change my list?

1 Tyranid Prime (Lash Whip & Bonesword; Scything Talons)

1 Tyranid Prime (Lash Whip & Bonesword; Scything Talons)

3 Hive Guard Brood

3 Hive Guard Brood

3 Hive Guard Brood

8 Tyranid Warrior Brood (Lash Whip & Bonesword)
1 Tyranid Warrior (Lash Whip & Bonesword; Venom Cannon)

30 Termagant Brood (Devourer)

20 Termagant Brood (Devourer)
1 Mycetic Spore (Stinger Salvo)

20 Termagant Brood (Devourer)
1 Mycetic Spore (Stinger Salvo)

10 Genestealer Brood

Here is their list...I am a few points shy and don't remember the second HQ

HQ
Baron Sathonyx

Troops
Kabalite Warriors
Dark Lance, Blaster, Sybarite, Raider w/ Flickerfield, Night Shield

Kabalite Warriors
Dark Lance, Blaster, Sybarite, Raider w/ Flickerfield, Night Shield

15 Hellions
Helliarch w/ Agoniser

15 Hellions
Helliarch w/ Agoniser

15 Hellions
Helliarch w/ Agoniser, Phantasm Grenade Launcher

15 Hellions
Helliarch w/ Agoniser, Phantasm Grenade Launcher

Heavy Support
Ravager
Flickerfield, Night Shield

Ravager
Flickerfield, Night Shield

Thought devilgants would be a fun test?

devourer gaunts might be able to get the job done, I don't know the strength on any of the dark eldar stuff, but if they can't instant kill the warriors easily they are a good idea.
I am assuming you are going to attach both primes to your warriors squad and try to absorb all his firepower.

However you are really, really low on synapse at first, on one hand I want you to drop warriors and take some gargoyles, but really you have no choice.
the game will be decided on if he can cut down your warrior squad. I would try to stick a tervigon in the back if it were my army.

Hrm. From the DE perspective, the Hive Guard have to die ASAP.

I'm interested to see how this plays out. I haven't been on the Hellion bandwagon, so we'll see how this game affects my impression of them...

I think the biggest thing will be how effective the splinter pods on the skyboards can be. If I remember correctly, those hellions can move 12" and then put out a total of 120 poisoned shots at 18". That should be 40 AP5 wounds before any saves are made. I dunno how many Kabalite Warriors are in each unit, but there are 10 dark lances there, too, plus however many splinter rifles or shard carbines.

I'm looking forward to the report.

Grundz wrote:
I am assuming you are going to attach both primes to your warriors squad and try to absorb all his firepower.

One prime in the big devilgant squad...too be a solid synapse for a while...could possibly stick them with hive guard because...as it has been said...they need to die.

I also am looking foward to the report.

While the hellions can put out a lot of shots, they have to almost be within charge range to get them. Guants on the charge would do bad things to hellions.

Bring lots of dice...it's going to be volume versus volume.

Gunna be a matter of killing those ravagers before they kill your hive guard, and very very careful positioning so that your gants can actually shoot the helions before they charge and completely ruin your day. I'd almost suggest a couple of small normal gant broods to screen your devigants so you can get at least 1 volley on the helions.

The two midsize gant squads are podded in case you didnt see.

I really want to say that Venomthropes should replace one squad of Hive Guard.

But on the other hand, I see the DE throwing absolutly everything at the Hive Guard so a full 9 seems just mean.

Relying upon Hive Guard versus lances mean the de can always outrange your bio weapons. The lances will shred the Warriors quickly. A smart de player will first focus fire on your Hive Guard then focus fire on the Warriors. After that they can move in for the kill. I think what you really need is a Tyrannofex, then you can outrange the de - totally changes the game dynamics and in your favor.

Prob going to be a sweet fight, tons of light ranged models opening up on each other. Biggest thing I want to see are pictures of the 60 hellions on the board, as that will look awesome!

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Relying upon Hive Guard versus lances mean the de can always outrange your bio weapons. The lances will shred the Warriors quickly. A smart de player will first focus fire on your Hive Guard then focus fire on the Warriors. After that they can move in for the kill. I think what you really need is a Tyrannofex, then you can outrange the de - totally changes the game dynamics and in your favor.

That depends on terrain. If there's a decent amount of good terrain, hiding and hitting them before they can hit the hive guard is certainly possible.

DE are going to change up the Nid Meta a bit...Hive Guard suck unless you take Tervigons with Onslaught...because you have 18" range unless you keep moving and DE are faster than you.

As for MCs...they're actually slightly more reliable in droves now...DE can shear off wounds with lance weapons...but they don't have enough lances to make a giant difference against multiple MCs.

DE can't handle horde...there's just too many models and units that can take them and their ships out. When everything from gants to gaunts can run up and wreck a raider...it gets a little sad. Fleshborers are king...Devourers are King among kings...DE can't take that much fire...it gets to be ridiculous.

I thought I would be outclassed by far in speed...hormagaunts can keep up with anything.

His problem was that while the Hive Guard were juicey targets that needed to be killed the warriors were barreling up the middle and so that's where lances had to go...which let my hive guard work their way forward to wreak some havoc.

My problem with Tyrannofexes against DE are that you don't need S10...you need more shots. While the Fex gives you more survivability...it's not worth it. Dakkafexes and Harpies...much better MC options here.

Genestealers are overkill...they kill just as well as everything else...but die as easily too for more points cost. Against DE at least.

Assume that all raiders cost 80 points from now on. They will always have a flickerfield and night shield.

I think that one thing we will see an increase of is onslaught on the Tervigons, to help compensate for the range reducing ability of the DE.

Honestly, as someone who plays DE against Nids on a regular basis, the DE player normally has an edge. You'll be lucky in the fact that your opp. isn't using a razorwing or a voidraven or your horde is gone, so that's a plus. Not sure how the Hellions will do; i run Warriors and feel that Hellions are over-rated, but guess you'll find out.

Not quite sure why everyone thinks that DE have problems with horde: make sure your units have shredders and you do well, if you have blast templates horde has little chance...

Just too many targets for DE too deal with...which is generally their tactic as well. I have played DE on multiple occassions and unless their build is customized to face horde it doesn't fair well. Most competative DE lists seem to have have this downfall...luckily most competitions see little horde due to time constraints.

Hmm that is going to be interesting, my advice is if you can pod your gaunts near the ravagers take those out losing the ravagers should definately hurt the DE player bad, the hive guard should absorb alot of firepower form the DE which will buy your warriors and such needed time (for the most part) I cant really say how the hellions will do simply because I havent used them (yet) but I'm thinking 60 hellions will definately give you a run for your money, though giving them agonsiers seems abit much. I think it's looking to be a very good match does this mean we get pictures of your battle later on?

What's the strength on devourers? I assume 4? And 1 shot apiece? As a DE player, I'd have to say it's an interesting challenge. Not bringing lots of MC's is probably the way to go, as they're too easy to bring down. Your opponent's list certainly has issues with fast hordes with s4 shooting, as his hellions are vulnerable without generally having any sort of save (assuming AP 5).

But I don't think that can necessarily be generalized to DE as a whole. DE can put out a frightening amount of shots. My "standard" 1500 pt list right now puts 16 wounds on anything with a toughness @ AP 5 and 36" range, just from the transport slot. And it still has 12 dark lances on top of that (would be 18, but I'm playing around with bringing 2 x talos). Against your list, the heavy shots would go into hive guard or warriors, depending on what is the higher threat in that turn. I'd be able to whittle down some of the gants I'm sure, including the spore ones. Once they're down to reasonable size, my assault elements should come out on top with FNP and lots of attacks.

CurrentlyUnknown wrote:What's the strength on devourers? I assume 4? And 1 shot apiece? As a DE player, I'd have to say it's an interesting challenge. Not bringing lots of MC's is probably the way to go, as they're too easy to bring down. Your opponent's list certainly has issues with fast hordes with s4 shooting, as his hellions are vulnerable without generally having any sort of save (assuming AP 5).

But I don't think that can necessarily be generalized to DE as a whole. DE can put out a frightening amount of shots. My "standard" 1500 pt list right now puts 16 wounds on anything with a toughness @ AP 5 and 36" range, just from the transport slot. And it still has 12 dark lances on top of that (would be 18, but I'm playing around with bringing 2 x talos). Against your list, the heavy shots would go into hive guard or warriors, depending on what is the higher threat in that turn. I'd be able to whittle down some of the gants I'm sure, including the spore ones. Once they're down to reasonable size, my assault elements should come out on top with FNP and lots of attacks.

Umm dude devourers are evil man S4 Ap- Assault 3 thats very likely to down a ravager. Yeah Im still unsure how I feel about baron hellionspam hopefully it will be worth trying (I want to look into buying some anyway) but I dont think this list is hopeless against the nids although those 9 hive guard are definately going to bring the pain

-EDIT- Hence the term "Devil Gaunts"

ShadowZetki wrote:
Umm dude devourers are evil man S4 Ap- Assault 3 thats very likely to down a ravager. Yeah Im still unsure how I feel about baron hellionspam hopefully it will be worth trying (I want to look into buying some anyway) but I dont think this list is hopeless against the nids although those 9 hive guard are definately going to bring the pain

-EDIT- Hence the term "Devil Gaunts"

So the 70 devilgants in the list can put out 210 S4 shots at full strength.

Ridiculous.

ShadowZetki wrote:Umm dude devourers are evil man S4 Ap- Assault 3 thats very likely to down a ravager. Yeah Im still unsure how I feel about baron hellionspam hopefully it will be worth trying (I want to look into buying some anyway) but I dont think this list is hopeless against the nids although those 9 hive guard are definately going to bring the pain

-EDIT- Hence the term "Devil Gaunts"

Except a Ravager has armour 11 on the front and side. S4 won't touch it.

Umm dude devourers are evil man S4 Ap- Assault 3 thats very likely to down a ravager

As mentioned, S4 hurts not at all. What's the range? Vs raiders, it's certainly effective. The units of 20 would be getting 60 shots, 30 hits, and 5 glances, which is probably enough to down the raider. Flickerfield helps obviously, dropping it to 10/3 glances, where the odds of destruction go down. Though I suppose what the raider is full of will matter quite a bit. Wracks on the charge, for example, would reliably put 11-12 wounds on the gants (assuming WS 3, T3, 6+ save), while only taking 5 wounds in response (assuming I4). Even if the wracks get charged, one would assume they'd place themselves in cover for that turn, and would still kill about 8 gants.

And AP- means you're at a total of -3 on the damage table when you do roll the 6s to glance it. You ain't gonna kill it, but hopefully you'll slow it down enough for your Hive Guard to survive long enough to do the job.

And AP- means you're at a total of -3 on the damage table when you do roll the 6s to glance it. You ain't gonna kill it, but hopefully you'll slow it down enough for your Hive Guard to survive long enough to do the job.

-2 actually, as the vehicles are open topped.

Ah, true, I should've know that one. Still not terribly good odds of killing it. Ask any Necron player.

Hrm...just a little mathhammer looking at the horde control ability of Hellions.

Firstly, this is assuming a vaccuum where I assume the Hellions get the charge. Primarily, I make this assumption because the Hellions have the larger move in the Movement phase, which is where most maneuvering occurs. I'm assuming on the turn of the assault that neither unit has lost any models in prior turns, and neither unit has the benefit of any outside buffs (no Tervigon buffs or Pain Tokens or meaningful Drug effect).

Hellion Shooting: 30 shots. 20 hits. 10 AP 5 wounds. (BTW, this is the number of wounds they do to any target, regardless of tougness.) For this example, I'm pretty sure Gants are 5+ save.

Hellion Assault: 45 attacks. 30 hits (Gants are WS3, right?). 20 wounds. 13 kills (I think the Gants are 5+ save). 7 Gants left. I'll assume they have two attacks base each, 'cuz I can't remember.

Gants Attacks: 14 attacks. 7 hits. 4 wounds. 3 kills.

While I'm personally not completely sold on Hellions, the Tyranid player will need to respect them in this match-up. If they are ignored, three of the four units could theoretically combine to kill every single Gant in one turn, while the last squad ices the Genestealers.

There are some interesting synergies that I see with Hellions. The main one being, if they start with the Grave Lotus drug effect, the all the Hellions' attacks in Assault are S5, and could go to S6 with two Pain Tokens.

Also, for the Tyranid player, don't be TOO aggressive with the Spods. With the amount of poison shooting and total attacks available to this DE list, those two units of dropping critters amounts to four easy Pain Tokens for the DE if they fail to neutralize the area in which they land.

Spods are more for taking away the speed advantage of DE...forming the game to your own will...Need to be aggressive...but not too aggressive...plan on gants being spoded into cover. If all goes well.