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This was really off-topic and it was suggested we move it here.

asimo77 wrote:She's [Samus Aran] 1-dimensional and a video game character

Whether or not she is one dimensional is debatable, as you see glimpses of a more complex personality throughout the storyline of the games-- you just have to pay attention.

But more importantly, I have to ask... so what?

It was a simpler time, that era of gaming. You didn't need an insanely complex story. You just needed a problem... and someone who was willing to try and fix it. The heroes of said era were simply those who, when faced with a challenge, stood up and overcome it, or at least tried their damndest. Sometimes they failed... and failed hard. Not all endings were good, and many victories were bittersweet. You could apply whatever personality you wanted to the hero, they were an extension of you-- the player. But the most important aspect of their personality was their willingness to give it their all for the sake of victory.

This does not necessarily make for a bad character. I think that nowadays I would much rather take a silent protagonist struggling against the doom of the galaxy over the overly complex, whiny little bastards that are produced by modern writing conventions.



Really, this is why I still put up with Marines, despite not really being attracted to their concept. If you ignore some of the dumber aspects of the fluff, this is kinda what they're supposed to represent.

Silent Protaganist is better i fell in most cases as the player puts a little of their personallity into the game.

Of course if a pre-made character suits better (IE Eddie Riggs from Brutal Legend) and does the job better than a nameless/voiceless one then that is acceptable or better.

I also agree with your points on Samus although I like her as a character.

Yeah. Finding out Samus was a girl was gak-your-pants epic. I don't know that she's really portrayed as a female other than looks-wise, however.

Yeah it mixed things up a bit to find out she was a chick.

Lightning from FFXIII is a great example of a strong female actually written as female.

@Scott: Probably because of the role-assumption you mentioned. "I'm a . . . hotgirl?"

She is a bit motherly towards the last metroid, fighting to protect it no matter what. Sure, she has other reasons for doing it, but I like to think she had an attachment to it, as she realized that Metroids weren't truly evil...

Sometimes a character who simply exists is better than a character (either created by the game developers through the use of voice acting, cut scenes, etc, or through some kind of pick and choose background/stats/etc system such as in Fallout 3).

Lets you just get stuck into the game. Sometimes characters get in the way - either by being annoying or by not fitting into the game very well (usually in the case of player created characters).

Melissia wrote:She is a bit motherly towards the last metroid, fighting to protect it no matter what. Sure, she has other reasons for doing it, but I like to think she had an attachment to it, as she realized that Metroids weren't truly evil...

Well she can't do the right thing and kill it as Nintendo would have to think up a new name for the franchise. Instead it has to be stolen from the galatic federation by space pirates and cloned or something.

(I lol'd the first time I saw the instruction book for my NES Metriod. It's set in the year 2000!)

@Silver: Kratos comes to mind as good evidence of your point. Certainly not much character there . . .

VikingScott wrote:Well she can't do the right thing and kill it

Could you murder a child in cold blood, as it looks up at you and calls you mommy (or daddy, in your case)?

Would you?

Nevermind that it was determined that Metroids actually had a great potential for scientific advancements, if only they could be studied and protected. But instead, they had to go extinct because of the greed of the space pirates.

The fact that she didn't kill it shows an unseen depth of character. Hints at a deeper character are more powerful than just outright stating said character.

You're comparing killing a metroid to me killing a small child.

This must be something I've missed because every metriod I've come across has tried to eat me. Not call Samus "mummy"

VikingScott wrote:This must be something I've missed because every metriod I've come across has tried to eat me. Not call Samus "mummy"

And then she came across one that did, a newly hatched metroid which wasn't hostile. It didn't try and kill her... it hugged her and protected her as best as it could, clung to her like a babe to its mother.

Things improve. I like that games generally have more of a story and fleshed out characters in the old days. Certainly I can give Samus some credit for being one of the first (the first?) female presence taking center in stage in game. At the same time I wouldn't really say she qualified as an actual character for most of the Metroid games. Of course my opinion on Samus specifically might be colored by the fact I've heard nothing buut negatives about the first real attempt at putting a fleshed out narrative in the games (The Other M).

If you're just talking about cool female characters in games though, Samus wouldn't be at the top of my list. She might be near the top of the list of female main characters, but only by virtue of their being so very few of them and even fewer that aren't just weak excuses for fanservice*.


*and speaking of Samus....

Alright then. I didn't know that bit.

I think Gordon Freeman is another character whose LACK of being fleshed out really helps him.

This compared to the whiny little bastards in the new FF game like Hope. I swear to the He On His Golden Throne that the little douchebag fills me with such rage that I want to personally crush each of his individual digits, then smash his legs and arms in joint by joint, and then finally rip his skull apart using a rusty hook in the bastard's eye sockets.

Fleshed out characters only work if they aren't stupidly written. Most are.

Melissia wrote:I think Gordon Freeman is another character whose LACK of being fleshed out really helps him.

This compared to the whiny little bastards in the new FF game like Hope. I swear to the He On His Golden Throne that the little douchebag fills me with such rage that I want to personally crush each of his individual digits, then smash his legs and arms in joint by joint, and then finally rip his skull apart using a rusty hook in the bastard's eye sockets.

Fleshed out characters only work if they aren't stupidly written. Most are.

Well I wasn't able to get more than about 10 minutes into FF13, so I can't really challenge you on that particular example. So I'll just take your word for it that whoever that "Hope" fellow was, was a crappy character. However I'd say on the whole I've noticed characters I've liked in video games more than ones I haven't.

Hope was hardly as bad as Titus--or even Cloud, for that matter. JRPG may not be a good genre to look for strong females in overall, however, given their reliance on anime stereotypes.

True, Tidus is basically He Who Should Not Be Named in many circles.

Manchu wrote:Hope was hardly as bad as Titus--or even Cloud, for that matter. JRPG may not be a good genre to look for strong females in overall, however, given their reliance on anime stereotypes.

No game genre is really all that good, to be honest. JRPGs are hardly way above the curve when it comes to female characters that aren't exactly great. Especially if you don't count player stand-in type characters.

Off the top of my head, the Valkyries of the Valkyrie Profile were fairly decent. Even if they did have boobie-armor.

EDIT: Which isn't to say any of them were terribly complex characters. They were all fairly flat by modern standards honestly. Still pretty neat though.

Melissia wrote:This was really off-topic and it was suggested we move it here.

asimo77 wrote:She's [Samus Aran] 1-dimensional and a video game character

Whether or not she is one dimensional is debatable, as you see glimpses of a more complex personality throughout the storyline of the games-- you just have to pay attention.

But more importantly, I have to ask... so what?

It was a simpler time, that era of gaming. You didn't need an insanely complex story. You just needed a problem... and someone who was willing to try and fix it. The heroes of said era were simply those who, when faced with a challenge, stood up and overcome it, or at least tried their damndest. Sometimes they failed... and failed hard. Not all endings were good, and many victories were bittersweet. You could apply whatever personality you wanted to the hero, they were an extension of you-- the player. But the most important aspect of their personality was their willingness to give it their all for the sake of victory.

This does not necessarily make for a bad character. I think that nowadays I would much rather take a silent protagonist struggling against the doom of the galaxy over the overly complex, whiny little bastards that are produced by modern writing conventions.



Really, this is why I still put up with Marines, despite not really being attracted to their concept. If you ignore some of the dumber aspects of the fluff, this is kinda what they're supposed to represent.

Yay, a thread about me

A main character should shut the hell up and kill things, like samus, or link, or mario. Or any character that doesn't talk and does what they have to do.

NOTE: All good video games main character doesn't talk much. This makes YOU feel like your the character. The supporting Characters are the most importent/most complex.

So there is no good JRPG?


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Oh, and Tifa was another good female character. Aeri(s)/(th) was more of an object, I think

Sadly, the gaming population seems to be filled to the brim with... people who will flame you for even asking if you can play a female character in a game. Especially FPS games. Or asking for female characters who aren't just sex objects to stare at. Metroid broke the trend long before it began to really take root in the industry... and it was a great game to boot, especially the SNES version, but heck, even the gamecube and Wii games (well, to be fair, I've only played up to Corruption) were better than most of the other games on the consoles.

A pity noone's really even trying to create the next Samus Aran. They want to create the next Bayonetta instead. *gags*

I'm more of a fan of Characters that you the player can flesh out and make ( Elder Scrolls, Fallout, DnD,The Warhammer Fantasy tabletop RPG that maybe 100 people on this forum remembers) that way the player can make them as complex or as simple as they like (and can make the character as strong or as weak as they like from the personality they give the PC [ like going though ES4 with leather armor and a steel dagger at best because you have an extreme hatred of magic and distrust anything that wasn't Imperial made]) But if I can't make my own, then a silent and simple PC beats an overly complicated one that talks to damn much.

And since Melissa mentioned Gordan Freeman: I have trouble playing Half-life now because of Freeman's Mind. Every time I pick it up, I end up going to Youtube and spending the rest of the day watching Freeman's Mind.

Melissia wrote:Sadly, the gaming population seems to be filled to the brim with... people who will flame you for even asking if you can play a female character in a game. Especially FPS games. Or asking for female characters who aren't just sex objects to stare at. Metroid broke the trend long before it began to really take root in the industry... and it was a great game to boot, especially the SNES version, but heck, even the gamecube and Wii games (well, to be fair, I've only played up to Corruption) were better than most of the other games on the consoles.

A pity noone's really even trying to create the next Samus Aran. They want to create the next Bayonetta instead. *gags*

I think you may perhaps be giving metroid a bit too much credit. The incentive for doing well at least in the nes and snes ones was seeing her in bathing suit. The orginal metroid had a cheat code to strip her down to her very pixilated undies.

Which was nothing more than a little easter egg/bonus for beating the game. That's like saying that Dragon Age is bad because it has mods which let you see the characters nude.

Melissia wrote:Which was nothing more than a little easter egg/bonus for beating the game. That's like saying that Dragon Age is bad because it has mods which let you see the characters nude.

Really? Too bad I have an Xbox, I wouldn't mind getting in on that Wild Wild Witch

I have to slightly disagree with you, Melissia. I think the best Non-silent protagonists are Eddie Riggs from Brutal Legend, and the Master Cheif from Halo: CE (Who, as I should mention, is actually supposed to be you in Halo: CE). Also, Ezio Auditore is a pretty well written character. Anya from Gears of War is pretty beleivable as a female in her situation.

But yeah, mostly the Silent Protagonists are the best. On the top of my head I can think of Point Man/Micheal Beckitt being my favorite from the F.E.A.R. series. New Recruit from the Ghostbusters video game was awesome, too bad you didn't actually get to customize him though
Jack from Bioshock was a lot better than a Non Silent, though we will have to see how Irrational Games handles Infinate with a talking protagonist.

There are a few Non Silent Protagonists that are pretty good, it really all depends on how they are written.

@Meliissia: LOL there are plenty of good reasons to hate DragonAge.

@Slarg: Master Chief is a . . . complex character?

Manchu wrote:Hope was hardly as bad as Titus--or even Cloud, for that matter.

Hey hey hey...

I'll put up with people insulting Jesus on this forum, but let's not cast aspersions on Cloud. FFVII had some of the best characters in video game history, and I say that as someone who as a rule doesn't much care for JRPGs.

Except for Chrono Trigger and Secret of Mana of course.

I liked the FFIV cast the best. Cloud was too whiny and indecisive--and he was neither the first or the best example of this, so I can't say much for him. He's no Cecil, that's for sure.