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HQ
Librarian (Null Zone and Avenger), Terminator Armour, Storm Shield 140

Elite
5 TH/SS Assault Terminators 200
Land Raider with Multimelta 260

7 Terminators Cyclone Missile Launcher 310

Troops
10 Tacticals, Combiflamer, Flamer, Plasma Cannon 185
Rhino 35

10 Tacticals, Combimelta, Meltagun, Lascannon 195
Rhino 35

Fast Attack
Land Speeder, Multimelta and Heavy Flamer 70

Land Speeder, Multimelta and Heavy Flamer 70

Heavy Support
5 Devestators, 4 Missile Launchers 150

Thunderfire Cannon 100


Thinking here

Horde - have the Thunderfire, avenger from libby, 4 frag missiles from devs and another 2 from the terminators (with their stormbolters), 2 highly mobile heavy flamers and a combat squad with flamer/combiflamer.

MCs - 5 thunderhammer marines with 20' charge range in their raider (libby option to null zone), the raider's godhammer lascannons, the tactical lascannon, the missiles from devs + terminator kraks and small arms - option to use the MM on the speeders

Mech - 6 krak missiles, tactical lascannon, 2 godhammer lascannons, rhino for rapid deployment of melta/combimelta, speeder mobile multimeltas and the TFC to rain down template goodness + fortify a ruin to help against return fire

Gunline - option to deepstrike termies and speeders. I could build this list to better handle IG or Tau gunline however the three above would have to suffer in their effectiveness.

All up this list can stand and shoot well (say against bugs) as well as deploy into an opponents face (say against Tau), so I feel its balance is pretty good.

Before I ask for comments and suggestions I would add I know the conventional wisdom is to leave out tactical termies. I have the tactical termies in there for a number of reasons.

1. I love the models
2. If the opponent is hitting them with heavy weapons its coming at the opportunity cost of hitting my speeders/rhinos/devestators/tacticals, and even with a 5++ (4++ if I put them into terrain or 3++ in fortified terrain) they can take it.
3. I like their ability to effect the battle with solid small arms (option to hit transports if absolutely required with 2 Krak missiles) while remaining in firesupport/counterattack. They will help protect my vulnerable rear against deepstriking chaos terminators, dark angels terminators, orc commandos and the like. Main point here is their role is not necessarily to survive the whole game but give me tactical flexibility while my deathstart thunderhammers goes and kills hive tyrants, demon princes and the like.

So tirade over, comments and suggestions very welcome.

Devastators/Landspeeders could be changed for an Ironclad in a drop pod.

Thanks Smitty but why?
It comes down in pod, kills tank/flames squad then pod and IC die awefully. Where is the symetery?
I took 2 dreads to last tourney and was underwhelmed. Sure putting the IC against a marine squad with no fist was loads of fun, however in other games they got smashed every time without achieving much.

Maybe drop the rhino's in favor of las/plas razorbacks
drop the devastators and TFC
for 2 Dakka Predators

you lose the devastators which are pricey imo, and the tfc is too much of a weak target

The las/plas will add a bit more punch as well as make opponents think twice on target priority

Good suggestion JDJames

Only issue with Lasplas is they cost so much for AV11 although having opponent choose Las or Plas is nice on Weap Dest.

Reasoning behind Devs is they sit in cover on a rear flank and try hitting side armour or frag horde squads/flashlight spam. If heavy weaponse are directed at them turns 1 and 2 then its not hitting my tactical terminators, rhinos or TFC all of which is fine with me. If they have 3 turns of firing then im happy to fork out 150 for them, so the way I figure it is they are going to add their value. Equally Lascannons hitting transports are pretty meh over Krak missiles, they are still AP2 so I can only rely on stun, so 4 Kraks going downrange over 2 Lascannon (and maybe a singleshot plasmagun if they get to midfield) is actually a better likelihood of rolling high on the veh damage table.

TFC is vulnerable against opponents its not in the list for / its really there to lay long distance template misery on little bugs and orc waves as their cover means nothing and S5 AP6 is going to cause mass problems to those opponents. Against a CSM opponent it will take down say up to 5 marines in a squad with its St6 AP5 if it gets good scatter dice however in this instance im really happy for them to target the TFC over the devestators for example.

Dakka Preds I agree for 85 points you get a huge amout of Dakka. I feel though my TFC and flamers give me anti horde

If you really want Tac Termies in your list, I'd say give your Librarian Gate instead of Avenger and stick him with the Termies. Gives them much more mobility to put them where you need them to go, allowing a "jack of all trades" unit to be used to its fullest potential.

Loricatus Aurora wrote:They will help protect my vulnerable rear against deepstriking chaos terminators, dark angels terminators, orc commandos and the like.

Don't have a vulnerable backfield (TFC, Dev's) that you need to protect.
Tactical termies don't really belong in a list like this. Neither does your static fire base part.
TH/SS termies work best when you can push your entire army into the other guy's face.


With these models I'd build towards a list like this:

Libby 100

5 TH/SS Termies 200
Landraider Crusader 260
*Multi Melta

5 TH/SS Termies 200
Landraider Crusader 260
*Multi Melta

10 Tacticals 185
*Combi-Melta
*Meltagun
*Missile Launcher
Rhino 35

10 Tacticals 185
*Combi-Melta
*Meltagun
*Missile Launcher
Rhino 35

Land speeder 70
MM/HF

Land speeder 70
MM/HF

Land speeder 70
MM/HF

Still has 80 Pt's left to play with, (EA on the LR's, Termie armour on the Libby, Typhoons in stead of MM/HF, Vulkan, 4th speeder, TL-LC Razors instead of Rhino's. All good options).

You can put Tactical Termies (with CML) in the second LR if you really want to, but it reduces the resilientcy of your list as they will become the focus of all AP2 weapons.

shealyr - thanks for suggestion however i really want an offensive power on libby (avenger) as well as nullzone. Im also uncomfortable with the random element of GoI.

What your comment has made me think of though is against mech im going to want the CML on a flank to try for side armour shots (even if strong preference is anti infantry work). Assuming I want a crossfire with the Devs so whichever way transports are oriented I can get a weaker hit with a Krak, those termies are not going to be able to support the Devs with a counterattack without GoI (using at least 1 turn).

@Joostuh my concern about the army list you have drafted is it has 3 heavy flamers on AV10 frames between it and getting tabled by horde armies. Understand crusaders go someway with weight of bolterfire however outflanking fleeting move through cover stealers with their rending claws would terrify me with your list. Also at 1750 paying for two LRs with so much melta around I feel is too high a risk use of points, especially with so few TH termies forming the bulk of the list, they do eventually go down to massed small arms.

With only 1 raider, which doubles as long range anti tank, a second term squd either needs to deepstrike onto locator beacons and take fire for a turn or two, or gate via libby (reducing the libby to either null zone or an offensive power), or I can take tactical terminators which can effect the battle out to 24 with solid small arms and frags, or sacrifice the small arms that hit a transport with Kraks.

Losing the Devs for the inability to cover them with the termies (given I want to hit flanks on vehicles with one or the other), im thinking the best remaining option now available is to load up on heavy hitting tanks.

SO here is the revised list given the thinking so far:

Librarian (Null Zone, Avenger) 100

6 Assault Terminators 6 Thunder Hammer Storm Shields 240
Land raider 250

5 Terminators Cyclone Missile Launcher 230

10 Tacticals Combiflamer, Flamer, Missile Launcher 180
Rhino 35

10 Tacticals Combiflamer, Flamer, Missile Launcher 180
Rhino 35

Land Speeder Heavy Flamer, Multimelta 70

Land Speeder Heavy Flamer, Multimelta 70

Vindicator Dozer Blade 120

Vindicator Dozer Blade 120

Predator Lascannon Sponsons 120

Total 1750

The libby has lost his terminator armour and now sits with one of the flamer combat squads to use 2 flamers and avenger for a nasty close encounter for one opponent infantry squad. His forceweapon and pistol also will be good to bolster against counter attack and for charging things like IG heavy weapons teams if the opportunity arises.

So this list really is a shooty list. My deathstar termi unit will take down a DP and my termies will take down a grey hunters unit however several MCs and squads of CSM or grey hunters all over me will cause problems so the enemy needs to come in waves and broken and bloodied when he make its.

Would welcome comments on the revised list.

You're fully mechanised, against hordes you completely have the initiative! Why are you afraid of hordes when fully mech?
Most hordes can't kill tanks for gak, let alone Landraiders...
That and you still have 3HF, 30 Bolters, Avenger and 2 frags which isn't that bad at all. Combat resolution also sucks for hordes (Fearless wounds), something TH/SS termies are very good at.

I don't think that last list has got enough shooting to scare anyone into comming towards you... 2 LC, 1 AC and 2 Kraks isn't that scary, and if your opponent comes closer there are 2 MM and 2 Vindies waiting for them.
Smart players will stay away and dismember your army for afar.

And since you don't have the ability to use your entire army as a single entity, advanceing on the enemy won't go as good as hoped...

...so the enemy needs to come in waves and...

This list already does that for your opponent.


Edit:
Also Vindies + Scatter = Dead termies. (of course this doesn't have to happen, but it limits your fireing possibilities.

I don't like lists at 1750pts with 2 land raiders... It's a gamble... If opponent is packing melta, you will lose quite quickly... If he lacks anti-heavy armor, you will crush him... too much paper/rock/scissors army... I wouldn't go that way when thinking about all-comers list...

As I put it in PM to you, let me post here for additional comments:

HQ: 140
Termi libby w ss (null zone, avenger): 140

ELITE: 765
Dreadnought (2xTL autocannon): 125
Dreadnought (2xTL autocannon): 125
6x TH/SS Termies: 240
+ dedicated landraider crusader (MM, extra armor): 275

TROOPS: 460
10x Tactical marines (combimelta, melta, lascannon): 195
+ dedicated rhino: 35
10x Tactical marines (combimelta, melta, lascannon): 195
+ dedicated rhino: 35

FAST ATTACK: 140
Landspeeder MM/HF: 70
Landspeeder MM/HF: 70

HEAVY SUPPORT: 230
Vindicator: 115
Vindicator: 115

TOTAL: 1735

And now you have 15pts left if you ant to add something... As I mentioned, you have to babysit your marines, as you have just 2 squads (or 4 when you combat-squad) for scoring...






Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for goi, it is good if you combine it with shooty termies... I don't like having footy termies without some kind of mobility... Land raider or goi, otherwise I don't use them...

HQ
Librarian (Null Zone and Avenger), 100 (will sit in LR with terminators)

Elite
5 TH/SS Assault Terminators 200
Land Raider with Multimelta extra armor 275


Troops
10 Tacticals, Combiflamer, melta, ML 185
Rhino 35

10 Tacticals, Combimelta, Meltagun, Lascannon 195
Rhino 35

10 Tacticals, Lascannon 180
Rhino 35


Fast Attack
Land Speeder, Multimelta and Heavy Flamer 70

Land Speeder, Multimelta and Heavy Flamer 70

Heavy Support
5 Devestators, 4 Missile Launchers 150

Predator autocannon/HB 85

Predator autocannon/HB 85

1700

Lascannon squads sit right back and fire las cannons for first turn or two, targeting the tanks and then make a move for objectives / or move up to kill more units.

Predators just target infantary alone, or oncoming transport. Land speeders rush in to take out anything threatening
Dev's just do what they do best to oncoming transports, then switch to HQ or MC's

50 points to customise the list to your personal prefrences.

gives 8 armored vehicals, with 30 basic troops, so you wont be scrambling for objectives.

If I may suggest, it does use a SC however the lists have enough of what he helps to suggest him. +15 pts wherever

HQ 330

Libby ta/ss 140
Vulkan 190

Elites 475
5xTH/SS + Dedicated LRC+MM xtra armor 475

Troops 550
2x10 tac MG,MSL,PF Las/Plas Razor 550

Fast 210
3x MM/HF speeder 210

Heavy 170
2x Dakka Pred

I think that the better list proposed is the Chinchilla's one.

On that list I'll make just some little changes:

- I'll drop 1 TH/SS Terminator, 5+the Libby are enough..(-40p)
- I'll exchange the LRC+MM+EA for a èLRR+MM+EA instead (-10p)
- I'll exchange the 2 LCs on the Tacticals for 2 free MLs (more versatiles vs AV and sworms..) (-20p)
- I'll add another HF/MM Land Speeder (+70p)

The only real problem I see in all these lists is the lack of a third troop choice, something that I consider compulsory in 1500+ points games.

I would not be afraid to run tactical terminators if you like them. However I dare to question CML. I know its sooo shiny, but it costs 30 points - thats almost one TH/SS terminator, which can swap weapons for free!!! And if you need to shoot at rear of the tank...well 2 krak shots are not really reliable, and then 10-16 bolter shots are usually wasted? Not a good buy I say, not even a little bit. I would be rather intrigued by idea to run 5 terminators with heavy flamer, one chainfist along with librarian in terminator armour, possible storm shield with nullzone and avenger/vortex. Since people just love to compare tactical terminators to assault terminators - to these bunch of dudes you can, with clear conscience, say that they are much more flexible. Your 2 templates hurt hordes (where TH/SS termies fail) and you still have decent 20 inch radius of hurting vehicles (even 14 thx to cheap chainfist, with LR ofc - where TH/SS termies again tend to fail) and you will not fail miserably against MC. You will save nice 20 points this way, gain more counters for all-comers list, pose enough threat to be a target but not enough if running with secound group of assault terminators or bunch of fragile speeders.

I personaly dont run / plan to run HF/MM speeders due to simple fact I dont play and dont plan to play Vulkan. I always say to myself run Vulkan - make them stronger, much stronger...then I come to my senses and run Typhoon instead .

As for scoring units, in most scoring games you will combat squad... So think of it as 4 scoring units... Ofc, I play 3 tacs at 1750, but I wouldn't say it's compulsory...

Jolrael wrote:
I personaly dont run / plan to run HF/MM speeders due to simple fact I dont play and dont plan to play Vulkan. I always say to myself run Vulkan - make them stronger, much stronger...then I come to my senses and run Typhoon instead .

I run typhoon/hb speeders w/ vulkan ... more range ='s more survivability

It's totally different and you can't compare them.... Typhoons are support shooters, staying out of range of the most units and providing cover fire and poping light transports and tanks... HF/MM is mostly suicide speeder that will exchange it's points for heavy armor unit... I love typhoons, but I love HF/MM too... With or without Vulkan...

It all depends what your list needs... You need cover fire? add typhoons... Need anti-heavy armor? Add MM/HF...

Re CML yes its shiny and the model looks great. But its more than that.

1. A second term squad at 1750 means you either gut your list and pay for a second raider, deepstrike at some point and hope, or use shooty termies who can effect the battle from turn 1.

2. Yes they will cop AP2 weapons like eldar bike (star cannon?) and plasma gun - can mitigate this partially with putting them in cover or ensuring a counter charge either means its suicide or bluffed off.

3. CML Kraks mean more versatile against horde (10 bolter shots from SB and 2 frags) but also 2 kraks into a tank's side then charge with 4 power fists hitting rear armour, mostly AV10.

4. Any anti tank weapons fired at these guys means my speeders, vindis and pred are being left alone.

5. Between the pred and LR thats 4 lascannons, 2 that are twinlinked and can be split over 3 targets. Then there is the MM speeders and the 2 vindis. Unless im hitting IG, in which case chimeras are fair game for the CML, then i would envisage these guys hunting infantry.

6. The CML is better for hunting big bugs that are not CC monsters - if the assault terms go in against Hive Tyrants etc then these guys will go against the slightly softer monsters, in which case 2 kraks would be better than single short range flamer. Assault Cannon is also good however I prefer the flexibility of the CML for the same 30 points as an Assault Cannon.

7. Im never planning on putting these guys against true CC nasties - im thinking here stealers, abbadon, Yuriel and the like, thats not their role unless absolutely necessary, and in that case im either on the ropes anyway or their sacrifice is for the bigger picture plan. Yes they will get caught by these sorts of nasties, the plan there is not not leave them on their own but supported.

8. What else would I put in instead of tactical terminators? - walking more assault terminators, or giving my libby GOI (losing avenger) do not appeal to me. Tacticals plain annoy me, they forgot their chainswords in the strike cruiser for crying out loud! So happy to babysit my few relatively weak troop choices. I have used my heavy support slots and have been dissapointed with dreads in Elite. The only real option I see is fast attack, ie more speeders or bikes, and thats $ I dont really want to spend given im happy with the tactical term's flexibility and role in my list, or sternguard. My issue with Sternguard is I now have 1 unit of combat able troops, not enough IMO, at least with tactical terms I have 4 fists in there with 2+ protection.

So tirade 2 over, happy to hear where im wrong / what I have not considered / seen due to limited games played.

Chinchilla wrote:It's totally different and you can't compare them.... Typhoons are support shooters, staying out of range of the most units and providing cover fire and poping light transports and tanks... HF/MM is mostly suicide speeder that will exchange it's points for heavy armor unit... I love typhoons, but I love HF/MM too... With or without Vulkan...

It all depends what your list needs... You need cover fire? add typhoons... Need anti-heavy armor? Add MM/HF...

I dare (again, I am such a bad boy :() to disagree with your statement. If you exclude style of play, you will find out that both these speeders usually engage almost identical targets (of course not entirely - like AV 13+). By saying what my list needs, I understand need for anti - horde, anti - armour, anti - MC etc...

My point is, like you propably know for yourself, play couple of game with both speeders, count the damage at the end of the game and you will propably figure out that both speeders did comparable damage to similiar targets. I mean who cares if I knock you out with my fist or feet when youre lying on the ground .

They are just different tools to accomplish similiar goals. So I guess which one you use depends rather on taste of tactics and sex appeal of individual models. I feel it, subjectively ofc, this way.

..and for Loricatus A.

1) Yes go on, I dont mind. How many points did you pay for those stormbolters termies youre not using?

2) If you plan to camp in safe cover in deployment area - point one can repeat and repeat and repeat...But generally this point rather adresses to skill of indiivdual players.

3) I dont disagree with this point. My idea was to run more specialised - but more easily used and still flexible termies. But I think - in accordance with point 1) and 2), that charging will not be common for you due to lack of your mobility, which could mean, again, wasted points - lying around to provide few krak shots at way too much expensive point cost. You will rather charge unit which your opponent wants you to, instead of your own choice.

4) Dont worry, I wont shoot at them. I will sit and laugh while killing your speeders and vindicators knowing that for those 230 points there could be many, many, MANY more krak shots going upon ne (thats 6 krak shots from 3 typhoons if you run 6 termiantors dude-your termies are just NOT SCARY, dont counting I will more likely shoot my HB too due to range 36 as I could also move 12 and shoot 2 frags and HB)

5) Point 1), 2), 3) and 4) still applies. If you run them do shoot few krak/frag shots and then maybe some turn even your storm bolters, youre paying a helluva lot points for that! IMHO termies need to hit hard and fast, if they wish to earn they points back.

6) Point 4). Especially typhoons laugh at melee MC as far as I did notice. I say even Vanilla devastators, which are mediocre, will outperform tactical terminators in this case alot.

7) If I would have been playing some above 200+ point CC nastie, I wont even risk getting so close to power fist attacks - if not absolutely neccessary.

8) Well I guess this was not pointed at me, I actually DEFENDED idea of tactical terminators.


In conclussion I dont generally disagree with you. I just think that what you want your tactical terminators to achieve - could other troops in your codex achieve better for the points.

MM/HF and typhoon are different... It is not the same target... Both can be good against infantry, true, and typhoon is better when comparing that part of their role... But MM and ml have in total different roles... I will not head in with my MM landspeeder to take out rhino, war walkers or simmilar... You use them against High AV and if you have army that lacks melta for taking out high armor (like my army lacks) then MM is better choice....
But if you're already packing lots of meltas (e.g. you have steins w melta, all tacs with melta and combi melta) then you'll need something to pop down lots of low AV vehicles and typhoon is excellenb for that...
Ofc, both do the anti-infantry role as well, and typhoon can be more effective there but it all comes down what your army needs...

As for terminators, i don't like the idea of walking 230 pts of units on the table... Don't forget that this is mech 5th ed and that means mostly mobility... So paying 230 pts for something that moves 6" and fires 2 shots is not worth it... Mostly, you'll get one sgormbolter shoot this way before something stupid charges you and kills you... That is why, when taking shooty tacs, i like to give goi libby to them... You can always keep avenger and drop null zone....

And finnaly about dreads... If you don't like them, you play them wrong... Dreads are great units and can be used imo in 2 ways to be worth it; either drop MM/HF dread behind enemy lines and wipe his tanks and activate smoke, or play them as fire support... I prefer second... Let me tell you this... 2 TL autocannon dread has better penetrating power against AV 10-12 than 2 ml shots! And thatb is much better... It is clise to it at AV 13, but that kind of armor should be takken care with melta anyway... And you can get 2 dreads for price of one terminator squad... So you are exchanging 2 s8(or 2 s 4 blasts) and 8 s4 shots for 8 tl s7 shots! If you need firepower, it's nice exchange...

And best part is long range... Sure, termies have ml, but if you want to utilize all weapons you have to be close... And if you walk them over board, you won't be close...
So, if going termies, take goi... It is not as dangerous as you'd think when porting 6 models... Problem is with much more models... Second thing is that I'd go with 3 termies rather than two if this path is takken... And all would be shooty, 2 squads with assault cannon porting on sight, and third with ml porting around with goi libby...

OK so the overwhelming opinion is to ditch the termies in favour of just about anything else, been a few PMs in there too.

So the list im thinking those with more game time than I recommend is now more like the one Chinchilla recommends higher in this thread, im thinking keep the pred to back the LR though

Librarian (Null Zone, Avenger) 100

5 Assault Terminators 5 Thunder Hammer Storm Shields 200
Land raider Multimelta 260

Dreadnought Twinlinked Autocannon, Twinlinked Autocannon 125

Dreadnought Twinlinked Autocannon, Twinlinked Autocannon 125

10 Tacticals Combimelta, Meltagun, Missile Launcher 185
Rhino 35

10 Tacticals Combiflamer, Flamer, Plasma Cannon 185
Rhino 35

Land Speeder Heavy Flamer, Multimelta 70

Land Speeder Heavy Flamer, Multimelta 70

Vindicator Dozer Blade 120

Vindicator Dozer Blade 120

Predator Lascannon Sponsons 120

Total 1750

Pls keep the suggestions and thoughts coming - ideal would be to take a force that handles all comers the best. Not just Rhinos and Chimeras but also Tau et al.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit

The Chinchilla list is actually looking better and better

Means I get to throw in my termi lib model which is really one of my favourites

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/151601-Terminator%20Librarian%20with%20Storm%20Shield.html

Losing the pred with lascannons though really hurts, particuarly as im also losing the phobos pattern land raider with its lascannon support.

So let me ask this of the gallery

In Chinchilla's list you get (assuing I get initiative)

4 TL St7 Autocannon shots at target 1
4 TL St7 Autocannon shots at target 2
3x Multimeltas on targets 3-5, not in melta double pen for turn 1
A lascannon each fired at targets 6-7.

Assuming space wolves have meched up, is this enough anti armour to hold them off? I have a deathstar waiting in the crusader however thats no help if I have 3 grey hunter squads, canis and all manner of nasties crawling through my tacticals (who forgot their chainswords on the strike cruiser, again!)

Turning into a bit of a conversation with myself however will put down here for Dakka to comment if there is comments

Have spoken with some IG players who feel the list I have will be outshot / whats to support terms / heavy anti vehicle no problems against blobs / 2 tactical troops the true weak link.

So have modified to try and build in a third tac squad. I have the models for this army however I really resent how weak tacs are in H2H and I really feel im stretching the SM codex away from its strengths here.

So army list then thoughts

Librarian (Avenger, Null Zone) Terminator Armour, Storm Shield 140

10 Assault Terminators 8 Thunder Hammers, 2 Lightning Claws 400

Dreadnought TL Autocannon, TL Autocannon 125

10 Tactical Marines Combiflamer, Locator Beacon, Flamer, Missile Launcher 195
Rhino 35

10 Tactical Marines Combiflamer, Locator Beacon, Flamer, Missile Launcher 195
Rhino 35

10 Tactical Marines Combimelta, Locator Beacon, Meltagun, Lascannon 210
Rhino 35

Land Speeder Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70

Land Speeder Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70

Vindicator Dozer Blade 120

Vindicator Dozer Blade 120

Total 1750


Key element will be immediately apparent - a massive hammer in the form of 10 assault terminators which can combat squad, with 3 possible locator beacons to come down on. Thats 30 marines to kill + their buckets before you can stop these guys coming in safely where I want. Against hordes I can deply the terms in initial deployment and use them as first line of defence.

There is 3 tac squads, 2 that have anti infantry capabilities and 1 with melta. Anti vehicle is a soft spot in this list, im thinking I deploy 3 rhinos, 2 vindis and 2 speeders at start of game, shooty opponent is going to enjoy turns 1 and 2 and im going to dread solid dice on their shooting. Were I taking this list I would hit speeders then rhinos and leave vindis till turn 2.

So the fear is the terms. Assuming i get 2 rhinos to move 12' I can now bring down 5 terms and 5+libby close to their line but they cop a turn of small arms and whatever else the opponent can throw at them.

This tactic right now feels like its a shooting gallery, ie very hard for me to take and hold the initiative and make the opponent scramble.

On the plus against hordes I have the speeders heavy flamers, the combiflamer/flamer squad, avenger libby and the vindis bring monster templates with some resistance to CC in the assault terms.

So on the whole im feeling going another tac squad makes my offensive capabilities as a SM player significantly weaker, even if the theory goes im alleviating one of my critical vulnerabilities (2 or 4 small troops choices).

Thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit

For completeness here is my thoughts when it come to IG however this requires I play Vulkan (reluctant to use named characters) and buy 4 more drop pods (also reluctant)

Vulkan 190

Librarian Avenger, Null Zone 100

6 Assault Terminators 240

Dreadnought Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 115
Drop Pod 1 35

7 Sternguard Powerfist, 3 Combimelta 215
Drop Pod 2 35

10 Tactical Marines Combiflamer, Locator Beacon, Flamer, Missile Launcher 195
Drop Pod 3 35

10 Tactical Marines Combiflamer, Flamer, Missile Launcher 180
Drop Pod 4 35

10 Tactical Marines Combimelta, Locator Beacon, Meltagun, Missile Launcher 200
Drop Pod 5 35

Land Speeder Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70

Land Speeder Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70


Total 1750


Mech Guard
Pod 1 - TL MM
Pod 2 - 3x TL Melta
Pod5 - 2x TL Melta
17 power armoured bodes + Dread on front door, 3 vehicles disabled

Blob
Pod1 - TL Heavy Flamer
Pod 3 - 2x TL Flamer + Vulkan's Hvy Flamer
Pod 4 - 2x TL Flamer + Libby Avenger
20 marines + dread on front door, lots of burnt bodies

All this hate for Tactical Terminators...

I play with 10 of them and love them. They are my Star Performers, shooting thier cyclones and adding thier storm bolters where it counts the most. The ability to move and fire is so valuable. They can even move backwards. The range of strom bolters is not the lame range (12") of bolters, it is a full 24" + walking. Storm bolters are so much more than standard bolters. And cyclones are awsome, combined with storm bolters, or oppurtunity shots on characters or vehicles. Mine fire every turn, unless they are already in close combat. Which doesn't happen very often, one way or the other, with so many powerfists.

Thier powerfists rarely come into play against vehicles, usually they will end up battling hamminators or other biggies. They do fine here too. Although not the equal of most enemy baddies, when you run 10 of these guys, there are usually enough left over to put a huge dent into anything. I don't always win with these guys, but whatever they fought has probably been weakened enough to be polished off by my other units. Using 10 of these guys make them 3x stronger than a playing single 5 man squad.

There is so much melta out there. I see melta, and I chuckle inside. But plasma scares me a little. Still, they have invulnerable saves, and that helps a lot. And they can move and avoid much of the plasma by putting objects/terrain between them, or use cover. Most people don't take tons of plasma anyway, given the heavy mech enviroment.

Team them up with a nearby Librarian with Null Zone and they can do pretty well. I hear that Lysander is really good with them, one of these days I'll have to give that a try.

Lysander could take the odd Lascannon hit for them and he would twin link their bolters. Also with luck the really nasty HQs out there like Warptime DPs etc will try hitting lysander, whose invul works 2/3 times (vs standard term 1/3) and of course he is eternal warrior.

Lysander and Term Libby with 10 terms and 2x CML is awesome, unfortunately its also 800 points in 1 walking unit. Can imagine the horror of a combiplasma captain with command squad wielding 4 plasma guns motoring 12' then rapid firing 10 plasma shots into this squad. Having said that though that unit shooting at anything is pretty scary and like you say 12' for rapid fire means they are likely to take it in hand to hand next turn (assuming terms are not isolated)

Allcomers lists are pretty hard to build..

Well I personally don't like havin all my eggs in same basket, since i find it to risky... Perhaps it's my profesional deformation
anyways, lysander is nice addon, but still I think it's possible to mix at 2000+ pts...

Still, having termies is a risk... I just played one libby porting termies army at 1250pts, and I got to play against stupid farseer... 3d6 psychic test for ds:p

Not to mention termies are bad when assaulted by things such as boyz... 30 boyz will kill probably 10 termies if they charge them, not to mention 5.... So you have to be mobile to survive, and in my eyes it means libby...

Orc charge bonuses are just fantastic, always worth trying to deprive them of that with a charge first. 20 bolter shots to soften them up is not a bad thing, especially if they are twin linked by the Lysander Juggernaught.

Have tried to make a list with term libby and Lysander and find it really guts the points.

Coming to realisation that 5 terms with a CML would be really really nice, I really want them in there, but 5 man tanks walking against say two vindicators or a land raider are hard to justify.

Really getting comfortable with this list, acknowledging that its very tank heavy and against IG and especially Tau im worried.

Librarian (Null Zone, Avenger) 100

5 Assault Terminators 5 Thunder Hammer Storm Shields 200
Land raider Multimelta 260

Dreadnought Twinlinked Autocannon, Twinlinked Autocannon 125

Dreadnought Twinlinked Autocannon, Twinlinked Autocannon 125

10 Tacticals Combimelta, Meltagun, Missile Launcher 185
Rhino 35

10 Tacticals Combiflamer, Flamer, Plasma Cannon 185
Rhino 35

Land Speeder Heavy Flamer, Multimelta 70

Land Speeder Heavy Flamer, Multimelta 70

Vindicator Dozer Blade 120

Vindicator Dozer Blade 120

Predator Lascannon Sponsons 120

Total 1750

Still turning this list over in my head

What I cannot get away from is I need more close combat than the Assault Terminators, I really think they would be massively overtasked if they are it.

Which is why I have been trying so hard to work the tactical terminators into this list. Yes I lose the extra bodies when I pay the equal of 10 devs with 4 MLs and get 5 terms with a CML but they get 4x PFs in there as well as their awesome protection.

Per above I cannot work these beasts into the list and justify what I lose to keep them.

So next option was drop the LR, add in Lysander and give the Libby TDA. This works after a sense in that Lysander can take out vehicles very well as well as being hard as nails and able to single handedly go toe to hoof with just about any beastie in 40k. In this thinking the libby drops his assault power (avenger) for gate infinity and my lads teleport (hopefully successfully) into a hail of small arms. Idea being next turn there should be enough left to launch at least one successful assault. However im not comfortable given they get shot then easily tarpitted, if not run away from. I really want the speed and force projection of a LR.

So factoring in all these thoughts this is what I got. As much as I despair about SMs forgetting their chainswords, meaning their crap in CC, the SGT is just fine. Assuming they are effective small arms (they are), good objective grabbers (they are), adding in a fist makes them so much more effective at holding their own in fisticuffs. With luck a full squad might even win the odd fight. So that needs 50 points to kit both out with fists.

The raider goes back into the list. My view of a SM list is its primarily shooty. Maybe not Tau shooty but it can take down most lists with shooting with the final blow to the shattered remenants delivered by Thunderhammer and now fist. To that end without the raider I would take TLLC and ML on the second dread. I have now dropped the AV12 dread for the raiders two TLLC and taken a MM. So with the pred I now have two medium armour spears, as well get protecting my terms and launching them into assault at my timing.

So I lose the second dread but get a third speeder. I view these guys as terribly effective weapons platforms but, using Sanct's term, a glass hammer. I anticipate all will die in just about every battle I face, which means I need to be careful deploying these guys in KP missions. So if I had a better alternative I would probably take it. Having said that against horde, those three highly mobile heavy flamers are just brutal.

So thats the thinking, here is the list:

Librarian (Null Zone, Avenger) 100

5 Assault Terminators 5 Thunder Hammer Storm Shields 200
Land Raider Multimelta 260

Dreadnought Twinlinked Autocannon, Twinlinked Autocannon 125

10 Tacticals Combimelta, Powerfist, Meltagun, Plasma Cannon 215
Rhino 35

10 Tacticals Combiflamer, Powerfist, Flamer, Plasma Cannon 210
Rhino 35

Land Speeder Heavy Flamer, Multimelta 70

Land Speeder Heavy Flamer, Multimelta 70

Land Speeder Heavy Flamer, Multimelta 70

Vindicator Dozer Blade 120

Vindicator Dozer Blade 120

Predator Lascannon Sponsons 120

Total 1750

This list looks good, alot of threats to keep the opponents gun busy, and some of the best SM have to offer

Only thing I don't like is to have single vehicle that is good against something...

Here I was thinking about predator... I think I'd rather go with second rifleman dread, as he is excellent against AV 12 or less... Yes, predator has better firepower (but 2 lascannons and autocannon is not much better than 2 TL autocannons), but it lacks mobility (and here I mean that if it moves 6'', you get to fire 1 shot... And vehicle that doesn't move is risky one), while you can move your dread 12'' and be just fine... But bottom line is, if you have 2 same vehicles, it is doesn't allow opponent to choose what to shoot down...

next, plasma cannons... I just don't like them... rather take ML, as it will be much better against vehicles and not too bad against infantry... And as you will have problems with hordes (vindies are great, but they can't do enough damage against them) I'd take combi-flamer and flamer in second squad too (you have 4 MM already)...

That should give you 15pts and I'd use them for extra armour on land raider... You don't want him stuck on same position due to crew stunned...

Hey Chinchilla

Its good advice. I tossed around the idea of a second rifleman dread but decided against it as he was the part I was most willing to sacrifice to put fists on my tactical SGTs. Left over points gives me a third speeder, which as I mentioned above im not thrilled with, however I really need that CC effectiveness in there, the hammers cannot hold everything in check alone.

The pred works with the LR. Its Phobos pattern with the two twinlinked Godhammer Lascannons as well as a turret MM, so those two vehicles are there to hit light and medium armour. The only time in planning on driving that LR 12' early in the game is against a gunline, otherwise the enemy can walk/drive through hell for a turn or two then cop 5 hammernators to their biggest threat. I also want two vindis for redundancy so thats my heavy support slots gone.

Plasma cannons im not wedded to. THinking there is I have S4 small arms and lots of them. I want those small arms effecting the battle so the tactical squads should really be shooting at infantry. Also they make terminators / oblits think twice. I took a PC to the last tourney I went to in July and it was brilliant.

Second combiflamer, again im not wedded to the melta here. Thinking behind going melta tactical is against horde my speeders are going to run amock, and I have the avenger via Libby. Melta on speeders will get hammered by vehicle heavy armies, so think the melta will come in useful in that tac squad.