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Izural wrote:
I've already said 0 points over, but I don't understand the kerfuffle people are still having.

Rules are rules. You don't measure out a Bolter to 25" and go "close enough" do you?

Do you go into a shop, go to buy something for £2, give the shop keeper £1.50, and say "It's close enough to the asking price so shut up"?

I personally, do not deal in "ish's". The limit is not 1500-ish. Bolters are not 24"-ish and the price was not £2-ish.
You are gaining some semblance of advantage whether you recognise it or not, to say otherwise is ignorance.

If I run a list at 1500 points, but go over by 5 pts because I included a 375 pt Imperial Knight, how is that fair to my opponent?

Because you could drop a 5 point upgrade and still be bringing a knight? Meeting or being under the points limit doesn't automatically your list fair. You can still bring a WAAC list that's exactly 1500 points.

Also, yeah, a Bolter can be 25" if you and your opponent agree to it.If he/you don't, then no, it's not.

If your shopkeep says £1.50 is close enough, then that's on him. I'm not advocating these things, but if my store owner said "Oh, that's $41.70? Let's call it $40", okay, whatever.

The point is these few points are for friendly games, not tournies. And I'll always ask my opponent ask about this before hand, same with any other rules discussion/unclear issue I have.

If i set up a game with anyone( friend or stranger) and we set up a limit in points then this is the limit. end of discussion.

Both agree to that limit before writing a list. Always insisting on keeping that limit is a real good way to prevent some kind of onoing point raising. someone already brought that thing: if i allow to be a certain above a point limit. then after a while this 100%+x becomes the new point limit. this is only natural. so why bother with this at all?

Talk with the other player. set up a limit and then both use THIS limit to write a list. thats not unfair or beeing TFG or WAAC its simply to stay to something you agreed.

 _ghost_ wrote:
If i set up a game with anyone( friend or stranger) and we set up a limit in points then this is the limit. end of discussion.

Both agree to that limit before writing a list. Always insisting on keeping that limit is a real good way to prevent some kind of onoing point raising. someone already brought that thing: if i allow to be a certain above a point limit. then after a while this 100%+x becomes the new point limit. this is only natural. so why bother with this at all?

Talk with the other player. set up a limit and then both use THIS limit to write a list. thats not unfair or beeing TFG or WAAC its simply to stay to something you agreed.

And this proves that anyone who plays you should follow the rules, because that is how you wish to play the game. And that's a good thing, you want a game that plays in the default way and nobody should pressure you in any other way.

But this isn't about you, the point being made was that if both sides are okay with it then the strict limit doesn't matter. Reworking the limit as 1503 is not witchcraft, because both sides are down for it. If that doesn't affect you, will you still get upset? If not then we are in agreement, coolio, but if not then you are now making judgement calls in games you are not involved in which puts you squarely in TFG territory

And this puts it down to the point of the whole diskussion: There is no alloable # of free points. not in general.

its not about reworking the limit to 1503 points... It always comes down to: how many points are allowed. and this is a value the two playing people involved have to choose.

 _ghost_ wrote:
And this puts it down to the point of the whole diskussion: There is no alloable # of free points. not in general.

its not about reworking the limit to 1503 points... It always comes down to: how many points are allowed. and this is a value the two playing people involved have to choose.

Could they not choose to allow differing points on the two sides, such as 1850 Eldar vs 2000 Blood Angels?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 _ghost_ wrote:
And this puts it down to the point of the whole diskussion: There is no alloable # of free points. not in general.

its not about reworking the limit to 1503 points... It always comes down to: how many points are allowed. and this is a value the two playing people involved have to choose.

Could they not choose to allow differing points on the two sides, such as 1850 Eldar vs 2000 Blood Angels?

Maybe 1850 Eldar vs 3000 BA. Even the, I'd have Eldar the advantage.

Right, so if the players can agree on unbalanced points limits, what's wrong with the two players agreeing to play 1504 vs 1500?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Right, so if the players can agree on unbalanced points limits, what's wrong with the two players agreeing to play 1504 vs 1500?

Originally I was opposed to this, but now I think it just doesn't matter at all because lists aren't buying the same level efficacy for their points across all the codices.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 _ghost_ wrote:
And this puts it down to the point of the whole diskussion: There is no alloable # of free points. not in general.

its not about reworking the limit to 1503 points... It always comes down to: how many points are allowed. and this is a value the two playing people involved have to choose.

Could they not choose to allow differing points on the two sides, such as 1850 Eldar vs 2000 Blood Angels?

Yes, that is specifically mentioned in the rulebook (Choosing Your Army, Army Selection Methods, 1st paragraph) but it would still be done before you actually build your list.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 _ghost_ wrote:
And this puts it down to the point of the whole diskussion: There is no alloable # of free points. not in general.

its not about reworking the limit to 1503 points... It always comes down to: how many points are allowed. and this is a value the two playing people involved have to choose.

Could they not choose to allow differing points on the two sides, such as 1850 Eldar vs 2000 Blood Angels?

Yes, that is specifically mentioned in the rulebook (Choosing Your Army, Army Selection Methods, 1st paragraph) but it would still be done before you actually build your list.

Okay, if you parse the rules that way, they can throw their list out, ask for 4 more points before building a new one, and then build the same list with an extra meltabomb or whatever. Like literally you're fixating on near irrelevancies.

No, because again once you start building your list the time to agree on the points used for the game has come and gone. Uneven points values doesn't change that simple fact.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 _ghost_ wrote:
And this puts it down to the point of the whole diskussion: There is no alloable # of free points. not in general.

its not about reworking the limit to 1503 points... It always comes down to: how many points are allowed. and this is a value the two playing people involved have to choose.

Could they not choose to allow differing points on the two sides, such as 1850 Eldar vs 2000 Blood Angels?

Yes, that is specifically mentioned in the rulebook (Choosing Your Army, Army Selection Methods, 1st paragraph) but it would still be done before you actually build your list.

Okay, if you parse the rules that way, they can throw their list out, ask for 4 more points before building a new one, and then build the same list with an extra meltabomb or whatever. Like literally you're fixating on near irrelevancies.

Nope, if you go over your points limit, you are literally Hitler.

 Ghaz wrote:
No, because again once you start building your list the time to agree on the points used for the game has come and gone. Uneven points values doesn't change that simple fact.

Wait so you're saying that all the lists I build before a game is agreed upon between me and my opponent are invalid because they were built before the time to agree on the points used for the game?

Do you guys just not have several lists written out for various point values?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Do you guys just not have several lists written out for various point values?

No, I organically produce them as I need them.

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Do you guys just not have several lists written out for various point values?

No, I organically produce them as I need them.

Same thing here. The only lists I have saved in battlescribe are lists I am buying models to complete, like my 2500 black Templar list that I'm almost finished building.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Nope, if you go over your points limit, you are literally Hitler.

And Godwin's Law has been reached. Outstanding.

autumnlotus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Do you guys just not have several lists written out for various point values?

No, I organically produce them as I need them.

Same thing here. The only lists I have saved in battlescribe are lists I am buying models to complete, like my 2500 black Templar list that I'm almost finished building.

Any particular reason you don't have lists prepared in advance? Do you write them before or after you know which army you're playing against?

I write them before I know the opponent, once I know the point level. Usually making the list on the spot is the only enjoyment I get out of a match. So why deny myself that by having canned lists?

Generally we work out the point amount, and we tell the other what army we are bringing. Not so much "eldar bike spam, daemon flying circus" but more "space marines w/ inquisition". That way we both have a general idea of what would be helpful and what would be pointless to bring. We discourage netlisting or an army of one unit, such as an all Lemun Russ army, but sometimes we let it slide when the game seems to be looking fun to play.

autumnlotus wrote:
Generally we work out the point amount, and we tell the other what army we are bringing. Not so much "eldar bike spam, daemon flying circus" but more "space marines w/ inquisition". That way we both have a general idea of what would be helpful and what would be pointless to bring. We discourage netlisting or an army of one unit, such as an all Lemun Russ army, but sometimes we let it slide when the game seems to be looking fun to play.

I don't get to know the army name at all. I have to prepare for both IKs and hordes every match. This is one reason I greatly envy the scatterlaser.

autumnlotus wrote:
Generally we work out the point amount, and we tell the other what army we are bringing. Not so much "eldar bike spam, daemon flying circus" but more "space marines w/ inquisition". That way we both have a general idea of what would be helpful and what would be pointless to bring. We discourage netlisting or an army of one unit, such as an all Lemun Russ army, but sometimes we let it slide when the game seems to be looking fun to play.

so you get to tailor your lists too ?

Well that is a local group issue, at least in my eyes. I dont enjoy watching my plague zombie Hordes be mailed to death with no way to harm the enemies IK, so some fairness should be enforced so there's at least some fun to be had in a game

autumnlotus wrote:
Well that is a local group issue, at least in my eyes. I dont enjoy watching my plague zombie Hordes be mailed to death with no way to harm the enemies IK, so some fairness should be enforced so there's at least some fun to be had in a game

Fairness? This is a GW game. IK suck anyway.Just get some meltagun CSM and they go bye bye real fast.

Eh that is true, but we do our best to have as much fairness as possible. If I hear I'm fighting IK in a low point game I'm more likely to add the multimeltas to me Crusaders, but that's mostly because that sort of army has only one answer to it

autumnlotus wrote:
Eh that is true, but we do our best to have as much fairness as possible. If I hear I'm fighting IK in a low point game I'm more likely to add the multimeltas to me Crusaders, but that's mostly because that sort of army has only one answer to it

IKs die all the time to S6/7 against their side armor. They suck for their points.

I say 'Try to stay under the limit, 2-3 points is okay, but please remove a melta bomb or something similar'

I only play hardcore die hard wh40k fans. Full painted army min 5 colors per model with highlights, shades and full based. WYSIWYG 100% or the model can be proxied but blown up with a cherrybomb after game. Ritual blood oath taken to agree to follow the rules or forfeit our souls. If a dice hits the floor? no re-roll that dice is GONE, I don't mean don't count the dice roll I mean tossed into a blender and melted. Can't bring your own dice, to easy to cheat with, only NASA approved gravity dice that are perfectly balanced and vacuumed sealed to prevent weight added to a die from oils and grease from our fingers. No measuring tapes, to inaccurate, we only allow laser guided measuring tools accurate to the micron. All terrain boards are randomly generated by high tech computers(gw brand of course) using only gw approved terrain that is bolted into place to prevent any 'accidents' bumping into the terrain. A sniper is on duty at all times to take out any cheater/police who start to investigate the premise. Everyone who enters is forced to subject to a mind wipe and blood check to see if suitable for the spider overlords. But we aren't as bad as we sound, every Tuesday there is free pizza and and optional gun-point brain wash.

 Matthew wrote:
I say 'Try to stay under the limit, 2-3 points is okay, but please remove a melta bomb or something similar'

Unless you're doing pure Imperial Knights, EVERY army has a way to cut 5-10 points to hit the mark.

Points are there for a reason but as GW decided it's cool to give freebies worth several hundred points why bother?

"You got free Razorbacks? That's cool, I have an extra unit of necron warriors."