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Forgive me as this is the first time I've done this. I'm trying to get up to 1500 points with my Ultramarines. I've built this up using the Space Marines Battleforce and Assult on Black Reach. I'm wondering what I'm lacking and what else I may need. Any advice is appreciated.

HQ: Captain Cato Sicarius (1#, 200 pts)
HQ: Space Marine Captain (1#, 115 pts)
Bolter x1; Power Sword x1

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 205 pts)
9 Tactical Squad
Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Flamer x1; Missile Launcher x1
1 Sergeant
Bolt Pistol; Chainsword x1

1 Rhino

Troops: Tactical Squad (10#, 195 pts)
9 Tactical Squad @ 195 pts
Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Meltagun; Plasma Cannon
1 Sergeant
Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon x1

Troops: Tactical Squad (5#, 90 pts)
4 Tactical Squad @ 90 pts
Bolt Pistol x4; Bolter x4
1 Sergeant
Bolt Pistol; Bolter

Fast Attack: Assault Squad (5#, 125 pts)
4 Assault Squad @ 125 pts
Bolt Pistol x4; Chainsword x4
1 Sergeant
Bolt Pistol; Power Fist x1

Troops: Scout Squad (5#, 100 pts)
4 Scout Squad @ 100 pts
Bolt Pistol x4; Combat Blade x4
1 Sergeant
Bolt Pistol; Power Fist x1

Elite: Terminator Squad (5#, 200 pts)
4 Terminator Squad @ 200 pts
Power Fist x4; Storm Bolter x4
1 Sergeant
Power Sword; Storm Bolter

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 105 pts)
1 Dreadnought @ 105 pts
Dreadnought CCW; Multi-Melta; Storm Bolter


There you have it. Thoughts? Comments? One suggestion others had was to pick up a vehicle for the scouts. I'm open to anything at this point and I'm going to have to pick up some bits for the scout sergeant's power fist and the plasma cannon. I don't have a lot of vehicles and I don't have a lot of plasma weapons. I'm not sure if I went too "close combat" or not.

Thanks in advance,
Oriphus

Personally, I don't think that you should have two HQ units in your list at this point level. Frankly, a powersword captain would be best against other MEQ, non cc units. I think that the only time you would take a captain like this is if you want a cheap HQ unit that still gives you the combat tactics.. but if you're going to be doing that, cassius is probably a better bet for 10 points extra, especially if you're planning on using some of your TAC squads as quasi-assault units.

And that leads us to the TAC squads... though it's by now almost dogma, footslogging space marines tend to die. More than that, they tend to die in very frustrating ways. (and now the anecdote) My friend, who I consider a slightly better tactician on the whole than myself, is prejudiced against tanks and droppods... So, in exchage, he bulks up on TAC, sternguard, and terminator squads, and even so usually outnumbers me... Even on days where half of my plasma cannons destroyed themselves on turn 1 (still wincing at the memory) he has failed to beat me with his footsloggers ever.

he has another problem that I see in your list.. A minimal amount of anti-tank..

Also, 5 man TAC squads just aren't that handy... The lack of any special weapon means they pretty much lack any redeeming feature...

Finally, Assault marines are just about the worst Fast attack unit in the codex as of now... the fact that now they can only carry one melta bomb has pretty much sealed their fate... However, they can be used effectively, in certain armies. In this list however, they do not synergize well, as they will, presumably, jump ahead, or act as a screen for your troops. If they jump ahead, they will probably be shot down or countered before making any impact. They could work as a screen/counter assault unit, but again, I think they just end up being a poor use of points..


On a side note, you have plenty of scoring units

If you drop your extra HQ, i'd get some transports... Razorbacks for the units you want to split into assault and fire support squads, and rhinos for the ones that are supposed to be objective holders. Drop pods are another possibility, and would allow you to transport your termies in with the rest of your men.

I'd replace the ML in your flamer squad with a multi-melta... This will keep tanks away (hopefully), also, it'll put hurt on 2+ units in the way that an ML cant (obviously), you could then give your ML to your plasma cannon squad, or upgrade to a Las cannon (this is what i'd do) it gives you some anti-tank punch, and still helps with your 2+ save units.

To give yourself even more AT power, Your termi squad could use 2 chainfists.. and since heavy flamers in squads like that are rediculously cheap, and help with anti-hord a lot, why not replace a storm bolter on one of your chainfist guys with that? Or, you can upgrade all the way to assault cannon or Cyclone launcher if you want some more long range punch, and if you have the points

I don't see your CC scouts doing much as they are... If you infiltrate them, they will be overun very quickly, as they will be unsupported and your opponent won't have much else to deal with turn one with your current list... I'd relegate them to objective sitters... give them camo cloaks, sniper rifles, and an ML (more AT fire is always good) and you still have a 100 point scoring unit that can, on rare occasion, hurt something.

I'd also replace the assault squad with some bikers, you can give them a melta attack bike, and some meltas, and they will give you more kills from a round of shooting than your assault unit would in a round of assault ( a generalization, but mostly true). They will be slightly more expensive... so it might not work at this point total.. but if you got rid of the 5 man TAC squad, it'd probably work out

hope this helps

Thanks for the feedback. Unfortunately, I'm restricted to what came with the battleforce and Assul on Black Reach at this point. Both sets are very restricted as far as what weapons come with them. It kind of stinks, because I have to work with what I've got. I was hoping that I could buy some additional units and get a nice army going. I picked up Sicarius just because I liked the way the model looked and I liked his fluf in the codex. The missle launcher and flamer in the TAC is what came with the box set, so those guys are painted and done for - I guess I'm using them at this point. The scouts didn't come with sniper rifles. The terminators are the same thing - that's the way they came in the box set. It sounds like I'm hosed because I got into the game on a budget. :(

Not really. The Black Reach box has some basic units with basic gear, but it's still usable. Additionally, you can order individual bits from www.thewarstore.com for whatever extra items you need, like Meltaguns, Cyclone Missile Launchers or Combi-Weapons.

As for your list I would ditch Sicarius and go with a basic Captain. Give him a Relic Blade and Hellfire Shells and stick him with a unit of Sternguard. Most people proxy units of Tactical Marines in for Sternguard or paint/convert them differently to show they are Veterains, so you really don't even need to buy new figures.

Using your list of models as a base, you could run something like this:

Captain (Relic Blade, Hellfire Shells) - 140
Librarian (Terminator Armor, Storm Shield, Gate of Infinity, The Avenger) - 140
5 Sternguard (3x Combi-Melta, 2x Combi-Plasma, Razorback) - 190
5 Terminators (Cyclone Missile Launcher, Chainfist) - 235
Dreadnought (Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer) - 115
10 Tactical Marines (Missile Launcher, Meltagun, Rhino) - 210
10 Tactical Marines (Missile Launcher, Meltagun, Rhino) - 210
5 Scouts (Power Fist, Missile Launcher) - 110
Total 1,350

It's not perfect by any stretch but I tried to use as many of the models you currently own as possible. It converts the 5 man Combat Squad you have into Sternguard with Combi-Weapons.

You would need to buy a Terminator Librarian, 1x Meltaguns, 3x Combi-Meltas, 2x Combi-Plasmas, 1x Scout Missile Launcher, 1x Cyclone Missile Launcher, 1x Chainfist, a Razorback and a Rhino. At www.thewarstore.com that comes to about $142.41. You could significantly reduce the cost of Bitz by purchasing one of each type and casting the extras out of Greenstuff, especially if you already own any of the combi-weapons. That may sound like a lot of money but this hobby is expensive, there are no two ways around that. You'll need to buy models, and if you intend to be competitive at all you will need to buy transports.

You CAN save money on transports by buying all Razorbacks instead of Rhinos, since the Razorback kit comes with a complete Rhino and a Razorback upgrade sprue. Just don't glue the top hatch in place and you can switch between both.

That might not be the kind of advice you are looking for, but it's the truth and I hope it helps regardless.

What about heavy support? I have none. I don't know if I should invest in some sort of vehicle or not. I'm thinking of getting a land speeder storm for my scouts but don't know about heavy support.

Space Marines have a few heavy support options that work. Stay away from Devastators unless you intend to play Space Wolves.

Predators are a good option for Heavy Support. You should almost never upgrade the turret, but they can take Heavy Bolter sponsions to be effective against infantry and light vehicles, or Lascannon sponsions to be effective against heavier vehicles. Avoid the Tri-Lascannon build as it's far too expensive for what it does.

Vindicators are another option, but never take just one. Always field two or three, as they suffer from "the law of threes", which states "Take three, because one will miss and one will be dead". Imperial Guard are intimately familiar with this law, and Vindicators/Land Speeders should be as well.

Land Raiders are another strong option. At 1,500 or lower a Land Raider can be fielded alone, but above 1,500 points you should consider taking two, or taking things that will attract fire away from your Land Raider. I often take 2-3 Vindicators alongside a Land Raider (dedicated transport for Assault Terminators) for that purpose because they draw a ton of fire. Podding Dreadnoughts with Multi-Meltas and Heavy Flamers can also do the trick, though you need a pair of them to fill that role.

For future purchases I would consider Assault Terminators and a Land Raider, a pair of Vindicators and a pair of Predators, more Tactical Squads and Rhinos to transport them (Do Missile Launcher/Meltagun for equipment, and perhaps buy some magnets to swap out wargear on the Sergeant who will sometimes take a Power Fist), Land Speeders with Multi-Meltas and Heavy Flamers, and Dreadnoughts with Drop Pods to transport them. It might also be wise to buy/convert a model to represent Vulkan He'stan in your force, since he is probably the best special character in the codex. Taken alongside five TH/SS Terminators they will wreck just about anything they smash into.

Is a Razorback worth it for a 5 man tac? Otherwise they're going to be hoofing it accross the field.

Do NOT take a single Land Raider, thanks very much - Dark Eldar armies will literally beat your face in while cackling insanely.

To be frank, a 5-man Tac squad is better left on the shelf, and not used in a game. Having no Special or Heavy weapon just makes them really rather poor - unless you take 4-6 of them ,and give the Sergeants combi-Meltas and put them in Razorbacks with TL Las/Plas...even then, not amazing.

Librarians in Terminator Armour have no excuse to not take that lovely AP1 Heavy power, as they are Relentless...sadly, I forget the name. In addition, Null Zone is a no-brainer as far as psychic powers go...honestly, it should be FIRST choice, not even second.

Dreadnoughts, along with everything else in the army, should never be equipped with Assault Cannon, either. I'm going to go ahead and give him the benefit of the doubt and assume it's a typo.

Like the others, I'd like to strongly dissuade you from taking 2 HQs at below 2000 points without extreme extenuating circumstances.

If you still own the Orks, try and find a friend to buy a second AoBR between you, and sell him your Orks, so you each pay a box-worth, but get a double set each.

This gives you the minimum of 2 Dreadnoughts required to ensure at least one gets out of the Deployment Zone.

Tactical Squads should be fielded as 10 man units without exception, and they should pretty much always have a Rhino. 5 man units cannot take heavy weapons or special weapons, and they are just not that effective. Razorbacks as transports are iffy at best for a 10 man squad since they cannot fit inside unless they Combat Squad and nothing can fire from inside. This can be effective if you intend to gunline your entire force on foot and are just taking the Razorback as extra firepower and a possible getaway transport if the squad has been whittled down to fit inside.

Usually it's better to take "Tactical Bunkers" which is a 10 man squad in a Rhino with a Missile Launcher and Meltagun. They drive up to an objective and the Missile Launcher fires from the top hatch as long as the Rhino stays stationary. If it needs to move try to get in range to use the Meltagun from the top hatch instead. Later in the game they can drive forward and disembark for a decent amount of firepower, but be careful that you don't leave yourself in a position to be assaulted by something nasty like Blood Angels Assault Marines or TH/SS Terminators.

The correct use of Tactical Squads is key to the success of a Space Marine army, but it can be difficult to get the hang of. Once you have your model base, play around with them until you learn exactly how much damage output they have. After a while you get a feel for what they can and cannot do, but even veteran players will sometimes misjudge their capabilities and put them in a bad spot. It just takes practice like anything else.

When Marines are advancing like that, of course, the lesser range of the Multi-Melta is irrelevant, and the superior AP and Melta rule make it superior to it's rival, with them being of equal cost.

I also find Combat Squadding usually a better tactic than not doing so - if taking Missile Launchers I would say this is more apparent, as it allows the MLO half to stay in cover and shoot while the Serg and Spec weapon go forward in the Rhino.

Elessar wrote:Do NOT take a single Land Raider, thanks very much - Dark Eldar armies will literally beat your face in while cackling insanely.

That depends on how many Dark Eldar players there are in his meta. Assuming he doesn't want to go out and buy a pair of Land Raider, taking additional high priority targets is a valid way to spread out the fire away from the Land Raider. Additionaly a Godhammers Lascannons outrange Dark Lances by 12", meaning he will get the first shot even if they come screaming up into his face on turn 1.

I agree that solo Land Raiders are not a great idea if it can be avoided, but at 1,000-1,250 it's possible if done right. At 1,500+ they need something to draw fire away be it another Land Raider, 2-3 Vindicators or podding Dreadnoughts.

Elessar wrote:To be frank, a 5-man Tac squad is better left on the shelf, and not used in a game. Having no Special or Heavy weapon just makes them really rather poor - unless you take 4-6 of them ,and give the Sergeants combi-Meltas and put them in Razorbacks with TL Las/Plas...even then, not amazing.

100% agree

Elessar wrote:Librarians in Terminator Armour have no excuse to not take that lovely AP1 Heavy power, as they are Relentless...sadly, I forget the name. In addition, Null Zone is a no-brainer as far as psychic powers go...honestly, it should be FIRST choice, not even second.

Nooooooo that power is suicide against Eldar or Tyranids. Fail your psychic test (which you do on average against Runes of Warding or Shadows in the Warp) and the S10 AP1 blast lands on your head. If you are fielding Terminators with your Librarian you could potentially gib 2/3 of the unit with a bad roll, including your Librarian if he fails his Invulnerable Save. I prefer The Avenger because it's much less likely to kill your own guys, and it punches Powered Armor. I agree about Null Zone though. It should always be your first choice.

Elessar wrote:Dreadnoughts, along with everything else in the army, should never be equipped with Assault Cannon, either. I'm going to go ahead and give him the benefit of the doubt and assume it's a typo.

Actually I was thinking about the Black Reach Dreadnought which I thought only came with an Assault Cannon, but looking back I see the OP has a Multi-Melta on it, which is perfectly acceptable. My bad.

Elessar wrote:Like the others, I'd like to strongly dissuade you from taking 2 HQs at below 2000 points without extreme extenuating circumstances.

*nod nod*

Elessar wrote:If you still own the Orks, try and find a friend to buy a second AoBR between you, and sell him your Orks, so you each pay a box-worth, but get a double set each.

This is actually a great idea. A friend of mine did this and came away with a nice addition to the models he already owned. The Black Reach box actually comes with a nice selection of figures even if they have limited gear, so if you can find someone to go half in with it's well worth it. You can also sell that Captian to another Marine player since you already have one and likely won't ever field a pair.

Elessar wrote:When Marines are advancing like that, of course, the lesser range of the Multi-Melta is irrelevant, and the superior AP and Melta rule make it superior to it's rival, with them being of equal cost.

I prefer the Missile Launcher since the idea is usually to hold my home objective until they are needed elsewhere, which means the range is better to have, but I could certainly see taking a Multi-Melta on one of them if that's your taste, especially if fielding Vulkan in place of a normal Captain. The re-roll to hit on an advancing Tactical Squad is pretty nice.

Elessar wrote:I also find Combat Squadding usually a better tactic than not doing so - if taking Missile Launchers I would say this is more apparent, as it allows the MLO half to stay in cover and shoot while the Serg and Spec weapon go forward in the Rhino.

Be very careful when combat squadding. It can be useful in objective missions, though it does leave half your Bolters in the back with the Missile Launcher making them a lot less useful, but more importantly each combat squad is a Kill Point if the mission uses them. NEVER do combat squads in missions that use Kill Points, and only do them in objective missions if you are sure your opponent won't be able to drop into your backfield and assault your tiny ML units.

Mostly (as you said) we agree...but I'm confused about your 'getting the first shot' comment RE Raiders.

If DE go first, which happens more often than not, if they choose one of two SCs, then they are capable of deploying more than close enough to shoot you first.

Even sideways on the board edge, you are no more than 8" from the middle on a 6x4...they are 12" from the middle themselves, probably also sideways. They can get within 6" and assault a LR on T1, should they choose, unless Reserved. (12" move, 3" turn, 2" disembark and 1" base size, followed by 6" charge of course with the option of Run, as they have Fleet.)

Yeah youre pretty much right there, but Dark Eldar really need the first turn or they tend to lose their raiders quickly. I had a game at 1k against a buddy playing Dark Eldar where he deployed in cover after I got the first turn and I still blew up one of his Raiders (His Wytches inside lost enough to force morale and ran off the board), Immobilized another, and Immobilized a Ravager before he even got to move them where they would have LoS. It was pretty bad, and that was just with a little above average shooting from Long Fangs. Unless they go first they end up sitting ducks if they deploy, or if any opponent seizes the initiative.

Regardless, you are right that they will likely get to shoot on turn 1.

So should I pick up another tactical squad and a rhino for my army? Then I'd have 3 tactical squads in 3 rhinos. Is that overkill for a 1,500 point army?

No not really. This is a 1,500 point force I have used to excellent success:

Vulkan - 190
5 Assault Terminators (TH/SS) - 200
10 Tactical Marines (Missile Launcher, Meltagun, Rhino) - 210
10 Tactical Marines (Missile Launcher, Meltagun, Rhino) - 210
10 Tactical Marines (Missile Launcher, Meltagun, Rhino) - 210
Land Raider - 250
Vindicator - 115
Vindicator - 115
Total 1,500

You could replace the third Tactical Squad with a trio of MMHF Land Speeders of course, or a pair and some additional Wargear, but I like having the three Tactical Bunkers.

If you're going 3 tac squads then 3 rhinos are required.

Looking back at the original list of models you have and tryung to come up with a list requiring you to spend another couple hundred quid:

I would go for 2 rhinos for the 2 tac squads at present
For the 5 man squad you could get a razorback - don't glue the weapon on and you can always go back to a rhino if you need to!
Look to get a heavy weapon for your terminators - flamer, assualt cannon or missile launcher (which doesn't even require a change of arms)
If going 5 scouts - either go snipers (which is difficult to modify) are get a land speeder storm.
Maybe a drop pod for the dreadnought?

Not a full list, but this makes the units you already have more efficient for less cost then going out and buying a landraider, vindicator etc.

Ok I've made a few changes and have freed up some points - what do you guys think I can use?

This puts me at 1225 thus far:

HQ: Space Marine Captain (1#, 115 pts)
1 Space Marine Captain @ 115 pts
Bolter x1; Power Sword x1

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 205 pts)
9 Tactical Squad @ 205 pts
Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Flamer; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant
Bolt Pistol; Chainsword x1;
1 Rhino

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 225 pts)
9 Tactical Squad @ 225 pts
Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Meltagun; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant
Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon x1
1 Rhino

Fast Attack: Assault Squad (5#, 130 pts)
4 Assault Squad @ 130 pts
Jump Pack;Bolt Pistol x4; Chainsword x4
1 Sergeant
Jump Pack; Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Power Fist x1

Troops: Scout Squad (5#, 95 pts)
4 Scout Squad @ 95 pts
Bolt Pistol x4; Combat Blade x4
1 Sergeant
Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon x1

Elite: Terminator Squad (5#, 200 pts)
4 Terminator Squad @ 200 pts
Power Fist x4; Storm Bolter x4
1 Sergeant
Power Sword; Storm Bolter

Elite: Dreadnought (1#, 105 pts)
1 Dreadnought @ 105 pts
Dreadnought CCW; Multi-Melta; Storm Bolter

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 85 pts)
1 Predator @ 85 pts
Autocannon; Heavy Bolter (each side)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Storm (1#, 65 pts)
1 Land Speeder Storm @ 65 pts
Cerberus Launcher; Multi-Melta

Since I have the scouts, I went CCW with them and will pick up a LSS.

How does that look? I'm starting to get frustrated because I just can't seem to find what people agree is a good "mix". Everyone seems to have very different opinions.

Ideas as to what to add? I'm thinking a drop pod for dread and sternguard with razorback. That way my poor dread doesn't get left behind. Usually he gets picked off while marching accross the field and he doesn't even get into the action, which really frustrates me. I'm trying to get a nice 1500 army here. Granted I'm new to 40k and I'm not going to be entering any tournaments soon, but I'd at least like to be competitive and not throw my money out the window due to lack of knowing the game well.

Thanks you everyone for your advice and help!

Oriphus

ruminator wrote:If you're going 3 tac squads then 3 rhinos are required.

Looking back at the original list of models you have and tryung to come up with a list requiring you to spend another couple hundred quid:

I would go for 2 rhinos for the 2 tac squads at present
For the 5 man squad you could get a razorback - don't glue the weapon on and you can always go back to a rhino if you need to!
Look to get a heavy weapon for your terminators - flamer, assualt cannon or missile launcher (which doesn't even require a change of arms)
If going 5 scouts - either go snipers (which is difficult to modify) are get a land speeder storm.
Maybe a drop pod for the dreadnought?

Not a full list, but this makes the units you already have more efficient for less cost then going out and buying a landraider, vindicator etc.

I'm thinking of dropping that 5 man squad and going sternguard and razorback. That way I at least get some good weapons?

OK, so I took some time to go over this list and consider what you have and what you are looking at purchasing and I came up with this:

Librarian (Terminator Armor, Storm Shield, Gate of Infinity, The Avenger) - 140
7 Termiantors (Cyclone Launcher, 2x Chainfist) - 320
Dreadnought (Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer) - 115
Dreadnought (Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer) - 115
Tactical Squad (Missile Launcher, Flamer, Power Weapon, Meltabombs, Rhino) - 225
Tactical Squad (Missile Launcher, Meltagun, Rhino) - 210
Land Speeder (Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer) - 70
Land Speeder (Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer) - 70
Predator (Autocannon, Sponsion Heavy Bolters) - 85
Total 1,350

In red are the items that are adjusted and may need to be purchased. If you are fielding Terminators, it would be best to lead them with a Commander that can actually benefit them. In this case the Librarian can gate them around the board wherever they are needed and with Relentless they can all fire their weapons after the transport. You would need to acquire another unit of Terminators to get to 7 as well as the Librarian, but they should come with enough bitz to make the above configuration.

The second Dreadnought is a good idea since single Dreadnoughts tend to get focused on before they leave the deployment zone. A pair has a better chance of surviving and requires more of your opponents attention to deal with.

In this case I dropped the scouts for a pair of Land Speeder Tornadoes with Multi-Meltas and Heavy Flamers. They will be a lot more effective since Close Combat scouts are really not that great. They are mostly used as fast objective snatchers, but the problem is their fragility. They can be quite useful as compulsory troop choices in a Pedro Kantor list using Sternguard as the primary infantry in the force, but in all honesty including them in the battle force is just a way for GW to sell the figures they otherwise would not sell. Scouts need Sniper Rifles and a Missile Launcher to be effective, otherwise they are just taking up space that would be better spent on other units. I went with the pair of speeders because singles suffer from the same issue as Dreadnoughts and they really need to be taken in multiples to avoid death before they do anything useful.

So that's my recommendation, and I don't know what all that entails as far as purchases for you at this point, but it might be something to work toward.

Hope that helps.

Might as well play the Blood Angels codex. Unless you are building a list around a special character, its just a btter dex

camcam_HALO wrote:Might as well play the Blood Angels codex. Unless you are building a list around a special character, its just a btter dex

No, it's not a better Codex, it's a DIFFERENT Codex. I would say it's better at lists centered around Assault Marines or Razorspam/AV13 spam, but the Vanilla Marines Codex is just as good, albeit at different things. The special characters in the Vanilla Codex are excellent and do offer some nice tactical advantages, but they are by no means required in order to field a competitive list. Blanket statements like that won't tend to get you a lot of respect on these forums unless you can back them up with facts.

I can't think of anything I missed when i switched to the BA dex. More troop options and things like devs are even cheaper.

I think the only reason to play Codex: Space marines is to build around a special character.

YOU can't think of anything YOU miss, but that's likely because of YOUR style of play. That by no means make the vanilla codex worse than the Blood Angels codex. In reality I think the two are relatively well balanced at two differing styles of play.

How can you argue Codex: Space Marines to be better? You aren't giving reasons, you are just picking at my opinion

This thread has taken a turn for the worse!

Oriphus, you're right. Aldarionn, we shall just have to agree to disagree.

PM sent, lets not continue this here.

I'd say it is rather unfortunate that most of the starter boxes do not contain vehicles. Mech is really strong in 5th edition, but I would recommend going all or none.