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You don't have to look far to see people talking about 4x Melta HG, 'liquefrying' LR. But I have been wondering what might happen if you decided to do something different, and how you (and by 'you' I really mean me) might get it to work...

My thought is to spam Plasma guns on HG instead of Melta guns... It's not a new or original idea by any means, but I'd like to talk about it anyway. I feel Honour Guard are almost perfectly suited to a Plasma spam role. Firstly they can take jump packs, and deep strike with DOA; Yet unlike many other BA jump squads I don't feel any compulsion to assault with them. I would be more than happy to keep my distance and rapid fire with them for the entire game. Secondly their unit comes with a built in Sanguinary Priest which adds an extra layer of FNP protection against weapons that overheat, and also against the insane amount of fire they would most likely draw.

The up side of this is that you get a unit (or two) that can really put some wounds onto MEQs, and even some nasties like TH/SS termies and TWC. The downside is that you loose a pretty key melta unit... Or do you?

When I really think about it, BA can bring a staggering amount of melta in the form of Infernus Pistols and Combi Weapons. Vanguard Vets can bring an Infernus Pistol for every man. 1200 points would bag you 30 vets with 30 Infernus Pistols, and leave enough change for drop pods. Sanguinary Guard can also take an Infernus pistol for every man, and they can potentially be placed in Troop slots. Pretty much all BA IC's (and even sergeants) may take either a Combi-Melta or Infernus Pistol. It would be perfectly possible to build an army in which every single model has an infernus pistol.

And so it seems that there are lots of units that could pick up the slack from an HG squad moved from Melta duty to Plasma. The real question is: How do you ensure you get close enough with your Infernus Pistols to make them count. Even with DoA the 3 inch melt range can make them a bit 'hit or miss' (quite literally).

What do you think of the general idea of Plasma HG? And what would you do to make sure you could deliver your melta units to within 3 inches of their targets consistently?

It all depends on what you want to kill. melta is the default because its so useful in the greatest variety of situations, but if you know beforehand that you want to kill av 12 or less vehicles and meqs, and you either dont have to worry about heavy armor or have good answers to it in other parts of your list, then absolutely. run plasmaguns.

if the rest of the army was meltagun happy sure, I mean theres alot of melta to be had in a BA DOA army so sure share the spotlight with some lovely plasma

Plasma on HG is probably the only place that could be considered for running Plasma. Their main downside is being Rapid Fire weapons, which prevents you from charging, so in a big 10 man Assault Squad they aren't worth it. For HG that plan using DoA to drop in and fry something they are certainly viable, most people stick to melta and/or flamers (you can take a flamer and a meltagun on each HG if you want) as meltas can still burn through heavy infantry fairly well and flamers tend to be more helpful against lighter infantry. If you have enough melta and horde control in your list then Plasma would work fine.

DoA is vital if you want to make use of Infernus Pistols, the reduced scatter means you can place the initial model 4-5" away from your target and unless you get the worst case scatter you should be in range (possibly long range, but better than nothing). With larger units it becomes easier as you have more flexibility when placing the guy with the Pistol. It still has an element of risk but with DoA its a not a terrible one, however meltaguns are almost always going to be a better option for tank hunting. The only way you can guarantee getting within 3" is by taking Dante, he makes taking units with all Infernus Pistols viable, otherwise they are mainly just backup weapons.

Plasma hg

Fnp bubble
+1 awesomesauce
+1 bullet magnet

8 plasma shots with a 24" rapid fire threat bubble
+1 awesomesauce
+1 bullet magnet

Plasma hg is a 5 wound meq squad that costs as much as a 10 man assault squad. The problem with plasma hg is a good opponent knows how deadly it is, knows the squad is half as durable as an assault squad, and will be all over the plasma hg squad like white on rice. That makes plasma hg a powerful but difficult to use squad.

I like the idea. Plasma HG squads are going to inflict some serious damage in that first volley, since you're pretty much guaranteed Rapid Fire. Its the ensuing assault phase in the next players turn that worries me. (Enemy shooting is what it is. Go to ground if you get shot by FNP denying weapons, and hope for the best, and hope you get assaulted.)

To that end, I've been thinking about a squad with Plasma pistols and power weapons, or a 2 and 2 combo of PP/PW and PGs. It won;t have as much firepower in the initial volley, 4/6 shots, instead of 8, which is still potentially good enough to bring down or cripple your average terminator squad. If the survivors charged, you'd strike above or at initiative, depending on armaments, and hoping that the enemies aren't thirsty/near a sang priest. Considering you have power weapons here, you'd probably win, or at least trade kill points...

I suppose the problem from then on becomes whether to shoot or assault in subsequent turns. Theoretically, you can maintain 6 shots, but if you mix PGs and PP/PW models, you may be wasting points, since you can either shoot fully and not get to use your PWs, or you can shoot with only pistols, which wastes the PGs. You can go all PP/PW, but you certainly lose the initial "oomph" for the first volley, and you can only have a chance to kill 4 MEQs, (5, if you count the bolt pistol from the Novitiate) but in subsequent turns, you'll do better in CC.

I still feel the best tactic here is to play the quadruple PG squad as a shock unit, be intelligent about where it comes in, and hope for the best. But maybe somebody else can see some other value in using PP/PW HG sqauds that I've missed.

Commander Endova wrote:I like the idea. Plasma HG squads are going to inflict some serious damage in that first volley, since you're pretty much guaranteed Rapid Fire. Its the ensuing assault phase in the next players turn that worries me. (Enemy shooting is what it is. Go to ground if you get shot by FNP denying weapons, and hope for the best, and hope you get assaulted.)

To that end, I've been thinking about a squad with Plasma pistols and power weapons, or a 2 and 2 combo of PP/PW and PGs. It won;t have as much firepower in the initial volley, 4/6 shots, instead of 8, which is still potentially good enough to bring down or cripple your average terminator squad. If the survivors charged, you'd strike above or at initiative, depending on armaments, and hoping that the enemies aren't thirsty/near a sang priest. Considering you have power weapons here, you'd probably win, or at least trade kill points...

I suppose the problem from then on becomes whether to shoot or assault in subsequent turns. Theoretically, you can maintain 6 shots, but if you mix PGs and PP/PW models, you may be wasting points, since you can either shoot fully and not get to use your PWs, or you can shoot with only pistols, which wastes the PGs. You can go all PP/PW, but you certainly lose the initial "oomph" for the first volley, and you can only have a chance to kill 4 MEQs, (5, if you count the bolt pistol from the Novitiate) but in subsequent turns, you'll do better in CC.

I still feel the best tactic here is to play the quadruple PG squad as a shock unit, be intelligent about where it comes in, and hope for the best. But maybe somebody else can see some other value in using PP/PW HG sqauds that I've missed.

Just have the HG work alongside a squad of assault marines. The assault marines can give the HG a cover save, and the HG can give the assault marines FNP/FC. After the volley of 8 plasma gun shots the assault marines can charge into CC and mop up whatever is left.

That being said HG with quad plasma seriously need to die. Their paint scheme should be white with red concentric circles on their shoulder pads and helmets.

I don't think it is a good idea to say that one type of weapon is ideal for a unit because it really depends on the makeup of the rest of your army. You want each unit to be able to accomplish something, so that as a whole your army is able to cover all of it's bases and be as good as possible against whatever your opponent can put across the table from you. For example, I'm running a tough CC geared Honor Guard at this point, which is something that most people on here would tell me not to do because it is a "waste of points" when the reality i that my army needs something that is strong in CC and the Honor Guard was a great way to get that into the list.

I've played HG units in almost every setup you can imagine and the determining factor in their wargear/weapons selection is what the rest of my army does. The 4x PG setup is pretty good against MCs/high toughness models, and still decent against transports.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:It all depends on what you want to kill. melta is the default because its so useful in the greatest variety of situations, but if you know beforehand that you want to kill av 12 or less vehicles and meqs, and you either dont have to worry about heavy armor or have good answers to it in other parts of your list, then absolutely. run plasmaguns.

I don't have an opponent in mind, but I think there is always a good chance of coming up against Space Marines. And since these guys can Deep Strike anywhere and put 8 shots on rear armour. Even heavy stuff like Dreadnoughts, Leman Russ, and Predators would go splat.

I think the biggest problem might be finding a target that is expensive enough for Plasma HG to pay for themselves, in 8 shots.

Powerguy wrote:The only way you can guarantee getting within 3" is by taking Dante, he makes taking units with all Infernus Pistols viable, otherwise they are mainly just backup weapons.

Yes! I've been thinking a lot about Dante... Zero Scatter and Melta Sanguinary Guard as troops, plus adding Hit and Run to his squad just sounds so awesome. The only downside is that he's seriously expensive. Dante + Melta SG/VV + Plasma HG is going to be back-breakingly expensive for anything under 2000 points.

I have been wondering if it might also be possible to make something work with Locator Beacons instead. Scout Bikers are quite cheap and I really like the idea of Cluster Mines making your opponent paranoid about using cover. If you could keep the sergent alive long enough to guide the rest of your army down then they would probably be quite a nice investment.

Commander Endova wrote:To that end, I've been thinking about a squad with Plasma pistols and power weapons, or a 2 and 2 combo of PP/PW and PGs. It won;t have as much firepower in the initial volley, 4/6 shots, instead of 8, which is still potentially good enough to bring down or cripple your average terminator squad. If the survivors charged, you'd strike above or at initiative, depending on armaments.

...

I still feel the best tactic here is to play the quadruple PG squad as a shock unit, be intelligent about where it comes in, and hope for the best. But maybe somebody else can see some other value in using PP/PW HG sqauds that I've missed.

Yeah I fully expect Plasma HG to: Deep Strike, take 8 shots, then get shot to pieces. If they don't pay for themselves in the first volley then they might never. My plan for keeping them alive would probably be to run them alongside Vanguard vets. If you have 10 Vanguard split into 2 Combat Squads, that would instantly allow you to tie up 2 of the most shooty enemy squads in combat. If you dropped them in the right place, your opponent might actually have trouble dealing with them that turn. Of course that does depend somewhat on your Vanguard arriving in time... But with the re-roles for DoA it's probably quite workable.

Another idea would be to put storm shields on the HG... This makes them start to look very expensive, but when you consider a storm shield will 'probably' stop 2 out of 3 shots that would have killed... for 20 points it's actually quite a bargain on a ~50 point model.

I'm actually not certain what I would do if I came up against a Plasma HG squad with Storm Shields. Half of me would want to kill it ASAP, but the other half would make me not want to waste fire on 3++ FNP units... I guess I'd just try really hard to tie it up in assault.

I'm not sure about running plasma pistols... If you were only getting 4 shots, then you'd probably be better just sticking with the 4x melta gun or infernus pistol.

Caffran9 wrote:I don't think it is a good idea to say that one type of weapon is ideal for a unit because it really depends on the makeup of the rest of your army. You want each unit to be able to accomplish something, so that as a whole your army is able to cover all of it's bases and be as good as possible against whatever your opponent can put across the table from you. For example, I'm running a tough CC geared Honor Guard at this point, which is something that most people on here would tell me not to do because it is a "waste of points" when the reality i that my army needs something that is strong in CC and the Honor Guard was a great way to get that into the list.

I've played HG units in almost every setup you can imagine and the determining factor in their wargear/weapons selection is what the rest of my army does. The 4x PG setup is pretty good against MCs/high toughness models, and still decent against transports.

Yeah I agree that HG are one of the best and most versatile BA squads. Perhaps Powerguy phased my point better. It isn't so much that Plasma is perfect for HG... It's more that they are by far the best Squad for running Plasma. For CC you can take your pick with BA, Vanguard and Sanguinary Guard are equally good IMO. There are also lots of good Melta and Flamer options for BA. Melta works well on Assault Squads and Combi weapons because 1 melta Shot can potentially kill 1 vehicle. But 4 Plasma Shots can't usually kill a squad of MEQs. So taking 2 Plasma guns in an assault squad.. Aside from preventing the squad assaulting, just isn't a very satisfying amount of Plasma.

The only squad that really comes close is Stermguard, who in fairness can pod in and deliver 10 plasma shots for quite cheap, then continue with vengeance rounds... They are awesome, but painfully positioned in the precious Elite section of the FoC, and kind of sucky to deep strike if you don't have any other squads able to take pods.

SmackCakes wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:It all depends on what you want to kill. melta is the default because its so useful in the greatest variety of situations, but if you know beforehand that you want to kill av 12 or less vehicles and meqs, and you either dont have to worry about heavy armor or have good answers to it in other parts of your list, then absolutely. run plasmaguns.

I don't have an opponent in mind, but I think there is always a good chance of coming up against Space Marines. And since these guys can Deep Strike anywhere and put 8 shots on rear armour. Even heavy stuff like Dreadnoughts, Leman Russ, and Predators would go splat.

in that case it depends on what the other anti tank capabilities of your army are......?

I think the biggest problem might be finding a target that is expensive enough for Plasma HG to pay for themselves, in 8 shots.

well thats a good point. I could see these guys zapping a blood thirster or something like that on the drop but alot of the kinds of things you need 4 plasma guns to kill will have support nearby that's likely to retaliate and wipe the honor guard. a blood thirster will probably have a unit of blood letters nearby, for instance..... when they hit the honor guard its adios muchachos. deep striking this unit really might not be the way to go.... unless there's something running around by itself and you want to send in a team to assassinate that thing. consider running it with the rest of your army in order to create another 6 inch feel no pain bubble.

This seems weak to me. You've got five guys with FNP that are expensive and not an asault threat. They will get blasted off the table first thing or assaulted up the ying yang.

Though i like the idea there is a big problem with it. That much plasma is certainly going to get alot of attention and they are still only power armor guys with fnp. Any high strenght low ap and you just lost a very expensive unit very quickly. Its a trade off. They have a chance to wreck face but you better hope they do so before being autocannon'd or a vindi shell falls

I used these guys specifically to fight Terminators. Plasma Guns and Power Weapons, they can shoot em up, and when they get charged, they're going to attack first against all those thunder hammers. It works great, but only against low initiative Terminators.

No jump packs, I usually use a Razorback, but they could easily be added on.

I was thinking of them in a DOA army rather than mech.


Mech is another story, they would be much more survivable in a mech list. The HG's razorback could just hide behind friendly rhinos filled with assault troops to protect them against shooting and assaults. In the meantime before they shoot the razorback would give a fnp bubble.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:This seems weak to me. You've got five guys with FNP that are expensive and not an asault threat. They will get blasted off the table first thing or assaulted up the ying yang.

Well it's not like they are the only BA unit that can get FNP, and HG probably aren't going to pose an assault threat to things like TWC anyway. Your army is always going to need some shooty elements I think I makes a lot more sense to kit out Honour Guard towards filling that role than to try and work something like devs into a jump list.

You can spam melt a and flamers in assault squads. Just seems like a waste of a perfectly good unit to me.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:You can spam melt a and flamers in assault squads. Just seems like a waste of a perfectly good unit to me.

But you can't spam plasma, well shouldn't because 2 plasma in a 10 man assault squad is a terrible idea. If ba wants plasma it has to be on something besides assault squads.

So HG can spam the plasma. That in and of itself doesn't mean it's a good choice. It's still a pricy unit that will most likely get off one round of shooting. Versus all mech they could easily bounce. Just seems like a waste of points to me.

Plasma isn't great against mech, but the rest of the army is probably loaded with it.

8 plasma shots will put a lot of hurt on MEQ.

CC won't be much of an issue. The HG will probably be surrounded by friendly assault squads. After they shoot a squad the assault marines are likely to charge. End result should be friendly assault marines between the HG and enemy CC units.

What is a huge issue is the Sanguinary Novalite. Sanguinary priests are extremely difficult to kill by shooting because as soon as the squad takes a good number of casualties the priest will often detach and join a fresh squad. Unlike the priest the Novalite can't leave his squad, and the opponent knowing that will likely blow the HG to hell in the shooting phase until the novalite is deaded.

Even without adding 60 points of plasma that MEQ players will fear an HG is a bullet magnet. Adding plasma that can mow down MEQ will turn them into a double bullet magnet.

ON the other hand, the novalite is much harder to kill in close combat as he can not singled out like a priest.

Well if you surround the HG with the assault squads you're opponent going get cover saves. Just seems kind of futile to me... Meh.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Well if you surround the HG with the assault squads you're opponent going get cover saves. Just seems kind of futile to me... Meh.

Assault squads can create a clear lane of fire, assault into whatever got plasma'd, and consolidate. Its a very easy trick to pull off given a 12" move.

Then next turn the hg will eat krak because their formation is out of place and they lost their cover save. If the other side has krak or S8 pie they are going to feed it to hg every time they can.

The general consensus is plasma is not that great in 5ed due to the abundance of cover saves.

4 plasma guns rapid firing into side armor 10/11 (8 shots at str7 against terrible AV) is bad? Autocannons are great and rapid firing Plasma Guns are the exact same as an Autocannon when they're in range. The short range blows but it isn't hard to set up thanks to DoA.

They definitely aren't bad against Mech.

Come on. Are you seriously saying one squad of Marines with no INV save is worth pun king out one pred ?

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Come on. Are you seriously saying one squad of Marines with no INV save is worth pun king out one pred ?

Haha obviously not, and in a situation where they land alone they'd kill something and then die. However, when they're landing with 75% of the army, they have support and target saturation, as well as protection from assaults for a turn. You don't just plop them down and go "well ok then," you use the other units to help them (units support each other, just like how you play any army ever). When an Honor Guard lands with 2 Assault Squads and 2 Vanguard units (Heroic Intervention) they suddenly feel a lot more safe. Your opponent has 30+ models in front of him to deal with, and all of it aside from the Honor Guard hits hard in CC. There is FNP everywhere. You've saturated the table with resilient targets and you're forcing your opponent to make a tough choice. Clearly in a vacuum they're not that cool, but they won't ever be in a vacuum because there will always be a lot more going on in a game.

I'm not saying they're the be all, end all layout for Honor Guard, because there isn't one. It depends entirely on what the rest of the army has and is doing. There can be a place for them in some armies where they are very effective though.

If you are shielding they are worthless since you're giving up hte cover save.

Plas spam honor guard is great at either tagging terminators who's ride blew up or just chewed up a unit, or cleaning up a squad of MEQ that's taken casualties.

I think, like everything in the marine army, they are a great use of the weapons, but have to have opportunity(good tactics) and a good general(good stratigey).

I run 1 now and love it, and am debating a 2nd, but maybe with mixed weapons or all melta.

It's not like every game is vs Meq & term pretty much always have shields now.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:If you are shielding they are worthless since you're giving up hte cover save.

What?

You can cover them with assaults, by having a lot of other units on the table, or by screening them. You don't have to shoot with them every single turn, sometimes positioning is more beneficial than shooting because it sets up your later turns.