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Hi again,

Well, in light of what I've learned about the game and the High Elf army, I've grown particularly fond of a few units, characters, and whatnot. I even had a chance to play test some characters in smaller games, and I've really liked how they work, so I've decided to give this a try at a larger list this time.

Lord:
Teclis 475 Points

Heroes:
Mage, 2nd Level, Annulian Crystal, Talisman of Protection: 185
Mage, 2nd Level, Silver Wand: 145
Noble, Great Weapon, BSB, Armor of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix: 168

Core:
50 Spearmen, Sentinel, Musician, Standard Bearer, Magical Standard: War Banner: 495
15 Sea Guard, Sea Master, Musician, Standard Bearer, Shields: 220

Special:
15 Sword Masters, Musician: 231
15 Sword Masters, Musician: 231

Rare:
Repeater Crossbow: 100
Repeater Crossbow: 100
Repeater Crossbow: 100
Great Eagle: 50

Total Points: 2500 (On the nose!)

Magic Lore:
For Teclis, I think that the Lore of Life is hands down the best for him to take. First spell cast would be Throne of Vines, and now he cast every spell available and get to avoid Miscasts on a 2+. I figure that if I attach him to the big unit of Spearmen, and march them up the board, leaving him behind in the ranks, he'll have the cushion on being in a big unit AND I'll be able to get closer to enemy units to cast Hexes and DD/MM spells. Cast Earthblood on my unit, and now I've got at least a 50% chance of a model surviving non-Flaming Str 5 wounds and up. Flesh to Stone is another option, but since Earthblood can only target the caster and his unit, Flesh to Stone would most likely be cast on one of my Sword Master units.

For the other Mages, I thought of two different Lores to take: Shadow or High Magic. Both have their strengths, but I think with High Magic, I get better support spells overall. Shield of Saphery will protect my other units that need buffing, and Curse of Arrow Attraction would allow my Crossbows to wreak havoc on any squad not in CC. Shadow Magic seems great, but the only spell that stands out in my mind is Okkam's Mindrazor. Granted Str 8/9/10 is nothing to sneeze at, especially with a squad of 50 Spearmen, but I think the overall benefits from High Magic benefit a little more. With High Elves, I've come to realize how expensive (point wise) my units are, and even if I have Lore of Life with Teclis, having extra buff spells would only make them more durable. And between the 2 Mages, I'll have 5 of 7 spells available for any Lore (or 6 of 7 spells, if I take High Magic).

Deployment and Positioning Tactics:
Most likely, I'd keep the big block of Spearmen in the middle, and just march my way up on first turn. I'd keep the Sword Masters to the sides, followed by the Mages for buffing support. Teclis would stay in the back rank of the Spearmen, and cast his buff spells where needed. My Repeater Crossbows would hang back, or just move enough to get line of sight to enemy targets, while the Eagle flies far ahead on it's first turn, hopefully distracting my enemy's attention. The Noble would most likely go with the Spearmen, keeping the BSB as close to all units as possible.

So far, that’s all I’ve got. What do you all think? Please be honest!

As a question - how're the RBT's working out for you? As it is, I've been finding them not nearly effective enough to warrant the 100 point price tag. Granted, I haven't tried out 3 of them at once, but that still seems like points that could be better invested. Still, I am curious to know how they're treating you.

Re: Mages - in my experience, you really don't want to bother with more than 2 Mages. Teclis WILL be throwing at least 4 dice for every big spell (also, throwing out dice early for a pre-Throne of Vines Spell like Dwellers can really throw off opponents who are used to seeing first castings of Throne, especially if they have relatively few Dispel Dice). This will usually leave you with only a handful of dice for remaining magic. Consider dropping the Silver Wand Mage. Invest the points in more troops.


I feel like a bit too much of your planning is relying on Magic going off and hoping on the RBTs to provide covering fire for your Swordmasters. I'm not saying the list is bad per se, it just focuses on aspects of the game that I tend to eschew. I'd like to know how this list works out, though - I really want to believe shooting can be effective (enough), just haven't seen it accomplished yet with HE's.

Well, I haven't exactly tried the RBT's in that quantity yet. Perhaps 3 in a list would be excessive, but going with the theory and experience I had with my 2 squads of 20 Archers, I'm guessing that they would do moderate damage. Otherwise, I like them a lot. They whittle down squads pretty effectively, and if the target has less than 3 or 4 ranks, the volley option to shoot 6 Str 4 shots with -2 Armor Saves is pretty good.

And maybe it's just me, but it seems like Magic has a very big impact on the game. I think that's why I'm so big on Mages right now, since in contrast to 40K, it is new to me. I just need to stop jumping onto the fan-boat of something new that I haven't seen before.

So with that all being said, let’s just suppose I take away the 1 Mage with the Silver Wand and 1 RBT, effectively freeing up 245 points. That could get me a third squad of Sword Masters, or a squad of Phoenix Guard or White Lions.

What’s your experience working with the latter two? Looking at their stat line, they’re all pretty similar. The Sword Masters get my vote because of the extra attack, but having a 4+ Ward Save or Str 6 attack are pretty good too.

Thanks!

Oh, don't get me wrong - Magic has a HUGE impact. Just that when you're limited to 12 PD per Magic Phase and are tossing 4-5 dice per spell, your Power Dice pool gets empty really quickly.

Re: Swordmasters/PG/WL - they all serve different purposes.

PG are aptly Hero/Mage Bunkers and provide a solid anvil for the most part. They won't be dishing out too much damage, but they're also unlikely to get wiped out easily.

Swordmasters are best as clean-up units. With their high volume of attacks and WS6, they'll likely be inflicting heavy numbers of wounds against most units. Still, with S5, I find them best for taking out low to mid-armored units. You want to be sure they can wipe-out whatever you send them into, however as they don't have any other particular advantage (no Fear, no Ward Save, no Stubborn).

White Lions are ideal for taking out heavy-armor and monsters. Having these guys in a block is nice, and they don't lose attacks from the second rank since they only have 1 apiece anyways. I've recently incorporated a unit of these guys into my own list and have been finding them quite rewarding and capable of dealing with Big monsters that I had issues with in the past.

Overall, I find the efficacy of the units depends a lot on your play-style.

I see what you're saying. So maybe a mix of all 3 would be a good starting point then, since they all cost the same amount of points.

So taking all of that into account, the list would look something like this:

Lord:
Teclis 475 Points

Heroes:
Mage, 2nd Level, Annulian Crystal, Talisman of Protection: 185
Noble, Great Weapon, BSB, Armor of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix: 168

Core:
50 Spearmen, Sentinel, Musician, Standard Bearer, Magical Standard: War Banner: 495
16 Sea Guard, Sea Master, Musician, Standard Bearer, Shields: 233

Special:
15 Sword Masters, Musician: 231
15 Phoenix Guard, Musician: 231
15 White Lions, Musician: 231

Rare:
Repeater Crossbow: 100
Repeater Crossbow: 100
Great Eagle: 50

Total Points: 2499

Just out of curiosity, how would you use the Great Eagle early on? You mentioned something about disrupting enemy units last time, but that would require me having to march to the opposite side at least on first turn before getting a chance for a flank or rear attack.

Also, let’s just say I take out the RBT’s, which squads do you suggest I add more models to?

Looks like a nice combined-arms list, though the numbers on the elite infantry seem a big low, especially for 2500 points. (18-20 would be smallest I would field for at least the PG or WL. 14-15 may be pretty good for Swordmasters). I think once you get a feel for how you like to play, you may want to drop one of the units in favor of adding bodies to the others.


Re: Eagles - personally, I'm VERY aggressive with them. As much as March-blocking has been nerfed in 8th, having an Eagle in the midst of several enemy blocks and all likelihood, at least one of those blocks will fail their Ld Test. At 50 points, they're sacrificial units - if they manage to get some kills in, that's bonus. Mostly they're there to distract your opponent and draw fire-power away from your other units for a turn or 2. As with march-blocking, they can also still be used as Redirectors (although not as effectively as before). If you're facing Warmachines, these guys should be gunning straight to take them out (1 Great Eagle should be able to hold off most warmachine crews for one or two turns - 2 should definitely take out a machine in one turn of combat). Use them aggressively to buy you time to get combat troops in position and really don't worry if they get killed off.

Re: Bolstering of squads - if you use PG as a mage bunker, it's handy to bump these guys up to 20 or so. Using the points to get full command on the PG and White Lions (less necessary on the Swordmasters, imo), you could also get the Banner of Sorcery to ensure a steady magic phase (average of +3-4 PD per Magic Phase).

Awesome. Thanks for the suggestion on the Banner of Sorcery. Now, combined with Teclis, I'm getting an additional 2D3 Power dice to my pool every single Magic Phase. Even if I roll average on all my dice, I'll get around 10-11 Power Dice on each of my turns and about 7 during my opponents turn, and that's without channeling through my Wizards either.

So if I were to take out the RBT's, here's what my Core and Elite choices would look like:

Core:
50 Spearmen, Sentinel, Musician, Standard Bearer, Magical Standard: War Banner: 495
10 Sea Guard, Sea Master, Musician, Standard Bearer, Shields: 155

Special:
15 Sword Masters, Musician: 231
22 Phoenix Guard, Keeper of the Flame, Musician, Standard Bearer, Magical Banner: Banner of Sorcery: 410
20 White Lions, Guardian, Musician, Standard Bearer: 330

I think I actually this list better...

Note that BoS only provides Power Dice during your Magic Phases. This is actually pretty close to my setup for Elite Infantry (I don't run SM, however).

I run 18 PG with full command with BoS and Skeinsliver (+2 to go first can be nice) and 18 WL w/ full command with Banner of Eternal Flame and Ruby Ring of Rhuin on the White Lion Guardian to provide some fire-power from the flanks.

I'm a bit concerned about the Sea Guard. At 10 strong, they're not really going to accomplish much of worth. You could divert points from the big Spear block to bolster the Sea Guard or just drop the Sea Guard in favor for Archers (2 points cheaper so you can get like 12 to fulfill your Core requirements.

Hmm... nice mix you have there. I'm actually curious to see what the rest of your list looks like.

I've been thinking the same thing about the Sea Guard too. Do you think I should just add more to the block of Spearmen, or go with the Archers? If I put in Archers, it would add a little more long range firepower, but I think if I add more to the block of Spearmen, it would just make them that much more resilient.

Your list is much better from the first list. You had far to many mages, 8 levels and 11 spells will just be a waste of some spells. Now you've dropped one level 2 and added the banner of sorcery this problem is pretty much fixed.

I agree with jin on the fact that you're sea guard unit is too small. Either find the points to expand it to 20 or so or drop it in favour of some archers.

I like your special choices, very versatile, so no problems there.

I personally don't like Repeater bolt throwers, i've used them with DE (and they're exactly the same) and they're not very effective and not worth the 100pts. Also the volley option is not worth the 50 odd points increase from regular bolt throwers. Great eagles, however, are a much better choice. If the enemy has war machines, make a beeline for them, the eagle should be able to deal with that big scary war machine. Using them aggresively, as jin said, can be effective, as even with LD tests one will fail at some point. I'd take 2 great eagles, as you can have one war machine hunting and one causing a bit of annoyance.

Thanks EO. I'm glad to hear multiple opinions echoing the same advice (well, at least for now ).

I'm considering putting a 2nd Great Eagle in the squad, just as a good measure to help counter or distract certain units (like you both mentioned: war machines). So far though, I've only played 4 games, all of which against Skaven, and all of which against the same player. What would be, IYHO, the best way to deal with a Doom Wheel? In the games I've played, I've basically charged them ASAP with my Sword Masters. And even though I'm only wounding on 5+, with the shear number of attacks I get and ease of hitting, there's only so many 6+ Armor Saves he can make against me. Thoughts?

Rurouni Benshin wrote:Hmm... nice mix you have there. I'm actually curious to see what the rest of your list looks like.

The All-comers list I run looks like this:

Archmage - lvl4, Forliath's Robe, Talisman of Preservation, Silver Wand (Life)
Lvl2 Mage - Seerstaff (Shadow)
BSB - AoC, Guardian Phoenix, GW

30 Spearelves w/ full command, Warbanner
33 Spearelves w/ muso + Standard (had points leftover)

18 PG w/ full command, Skeinsliver, BoS
18 WL w/ full command, Ruby Ring of Ruin, Banner of Eternal Flame
10 DP w/ full command, Banner of Ellyrion, Ironcurse Icon

2 Great Eagles

Basically, I forgo Shooting for more Combat numbers with Archmage providing buffs and Artillery and the Lvl2 providing support as needed. The AM and BSB bunker up with the PG.

Rurouni Benshin wrote:I'm considering putting a 2nd Great Eagle in the squad, just as a good measure to help counter or distract certain units (like you both mentioned: war machines). So far though, I've only played 4 games, all of which against Skaven, and all of which against the same player. What would be, IYHO, the best way to deal with a Doom Wheel? In the games I've played, I've basically charged them ASAP with my Sword Masters. And even though I'm only wounding on 5+, with the shear number of attacks I get and ease of hitting, there's only so many 6+ Armor Saves he can make against me. Thoughts?

Doom Wheels I've found to be not as terrifying as I'd originally thought. Basically, you want to get High S attacks on that thing, so White Lions love getting in combat with them, as more likely than not, those S6 attacks will do it in. Swordmasters have 50% more attacks against them, but damage them 33% less times and still allow that 6+ Save. In any event, even a heavy block of spearelves should be able to hold one long enough for a more killy unit to come in.

nothing will ever stop two doomwheels

the repeaters, a few people have tried them at the store, not many people end up keeping them. why not have a lord ride the eagle and save points for other rares? there has to be something else to spend the points on.

also, shadow warriors are pretty good if you can find or convert the models.

Skavenknight wrote:nothing will ever stop two doomwheels

My White Lions would like to disagree.

why not have a lord ride the eagle and save points for other rares? there has to be something else to spend the points on.

Not sure to whom this is directed, but Teclis can't be given any extra equipment/mounts and mounting an Archmage on an Eagle is asking to have a dead Archmage really quickly.

Don't mind Skavenknight, Jin. He's just a little butt hurt that his Doom Wheels have had their asses handed to them by Tyrion twice, and that his Skaven have yet to win a game against High Elves.

At any rate, I'm glad that the list seems to be improving in the eyes of you "pro's". Hopefully it'll translate just as well on the table top. I'm going to post a thread on either the Tactics or General Discussion section later today about the usefulness of certain units (or lack there of). Your input there would be much appreciated as well.

Eventually, I plan to make a 3500 list where I can field both Teclis and Tyrion together. It’ll be awhile before I can likely get all the pieces assembled with the right units, but I expect it to be a fun game.

Thats why i play two so if one dies i take revenge with the other

but seriously, why not attempt shadow warriors? alith is pretty good but so are the regular shadow warriors. and if you ever play 4000 points a star dragon is just idiot proof. my chaos dragon managed to eat more lords than the glue it took to hold it together and a star dragon is even better.

also, any unit smaller than 20 in games over 2000 points is going to fly off the table. even WOC couldn't stay on very long and they have much more endurance than elves. plus you are able to really maximize on having large units. why not take advantage of the fact spearmen can fight in (4?) ranks and make a block 10 wide, 4 deep and drop the sea guard.

dont worry about saves on units. only thing that any army should care about losing is lords, heroes, and other big models (dragons, warmachines, ogres, giants, etc.)

I'd probably drop a mage - the 145 pt one, and invest in making the spears bigger

SM limited to 15? if not, I'd make it about a 25-30 man squad. they've heavy armour? 5+ save isn'g gonna last against a 15-man knightly squad with a paladin - a costly comparison, but it's fair in every way possible - who has a 2x threat radius?

really, cavalry are a must. if you have nothing to poke your oponents rump, you're kinda unable draw off potential chargees.

Warhammer, in my ideal, is a game of mobility - you're not gonna be able to rely on relatively naked SM whom really lack any kind of protection.

my 2 cents. I'm probably wrong.

Looking at the list again, and considering I have Teclis, I may be able to drop the other Mage and still play the list effectively. My main reason for having him would be for High Magic, since Teclis will likely use Life Magic most of the time, but if my opponent sees Teclis, he'll probably save all his Dispel dice on the other Mage anyway.

And no, Sm aren't limited to 15. I just had that group at 15 since it was all I could afford at the time. I'm actually now considering dropping the entire group just to add to my other groups of White Lions and Phoenix Guards.

As for Cavalry, I could invest points from the SM into Dragon Princes. I do have a Great Eagle for "poking in the rump", as you'd say, but I guess Cavalry would be more effective overall.

(BTW, "surprise butt sex" = very bad Sorry, couldn't resist saying)

New list to come soon!

I wouldn't exactly say cavalry is necessary. Is it nice? Certainly. But given the fact that you're dropping 30 points a head for cavalry (not even going to consider Silver Helms as a viable option), forgoing cavalry isn't a 'must have'.

So long as you have enough line-disrupting units, I think decent lists can be made without cavalry.

I'm going to make a list for 2250 next time, since that is the popular amount for most tournaments around my area. It'll be as competitive as possible, so I expect all of you folks to hack it to pieces before I am able to get it as fine tuned as possible.

Thanks again!

@Jin

I haven't played a game as High Elves before because my models are still being painted (almost done!). However, my list looks a lot like yours. I play lizardmen and skaven as well so I understand the value of elite infantry.
My biggest fear is that my troops will be annihilated before they can reach the enemy. Has that happened to you? What's your strategy for getting your troops into combat?