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Recently, I've seen a slight trend of Land Speeder hating. The purpose of this thread is basically to detail how awesome they really are. In my opinion, Speeders are one of the best units in Codex: Space Marines, and Codex: Space Wolves. They aren't quite as good in a Blood Angels army, simply because they compete with Baal Predators for FA slots, and have their most common usage usurped by Assault Squads, or inconsistant with the rest of the army.

First and foremost, let's talk weapon loadouts. There are, generally, 2 main, and a number of secondary Land Speeder builds.

Heavy Flamer and a Muli-melta: Tactically, I consider this to be the most flexible option available. The Multi-melta does a great job of busting tanks, and the Heavy Flamer clears out hordes. The Speeder, being a fast vehicles, can move 12" and fire 1, which is perfect, considering these weapons have different intended targets. The mobility factor here is awesome. You give your Multi-melta an effect 24" 2d6 range, and your heavy flamer has an effective range between 12" and 19". Perfect for re-positioning to maximize template coverage, or getting into range of that squad hiding in cover.

Additionally, this option is cheap. At 70 points, it will often kill much more than it's own points value though even a single wrecked vehicle. Tactically, this unit becomes even more valuable; 24" flat out move and Multi-meltas on fast vehicles definitely make the board smaller, and your opponent more cautious about using his tanks.

However, the downside is glaring. You have 2 close range weapons on an AV10 vehicle, which, in squadrons, can be wrecked by a single bolter round. There's the added issue of Multi-lasers and Heavy Bolters which are serious threats, and Autocannons, especially on Hydras, which make Speeders cry. To compensate, your Speeder has the ability to gain a 4+ cover save through moving Flat Out, which it will likely be doing on turn 1, and the ability to take squadrons, which ignore shaken/stunned results (a great defense against glancing hits). More on survivability and squadrons will come later.

Overall, I personally believe this is the best way to run Speeders. Whether solo or in a squadron, the HF/MM Speeder will often make back its points plus more. Moreover, its tactical value and versitility give a greater impact than simply making back points costs.

Tyhoon Missile Launcher and Heavy Bolter: A great fire support unit, many players use these to replace Devastators. Being that they can perform nearly an identical function, plus a few bonuses, it's no wonder this is the case. This unit will mainly sit back, taking shots at vehicles with 2 Krak missiles, often moving 12" in the process to get better line of sight. However, when the need arises to engage infantry, it can switch to frag missiles (a defensive weapon), and move 12", firing both its Heavy Bolter and 2 frags. If it chooses to move 6", it can fire both the Heavy Bolter and 2 Krak missiles, a perfect combo for dealing with monstrous creatures (Daemon Princes beware!).

It comes in a bit more expensive than the HF/MM. 20 points, to be precise. But at 90 points per, it's still a suprisingly good value, all things considered. The Space Marine army definitely has a place for units that can cheaply and effectively sit back and shoot, and the Typhoon fulfills this role.

Compared to Devastators, a squadron of 2 puts out an equivalent number of Missile shots, but is 30 points more than a min sized Dev squad with 4x MLs. For those 30 points, you get 2 AV10 vehicles instead of 5 MEQ bodies, but I would argue the Speeders would be more survivable. The Land Speeders gain the advantage of a low target priority, and can't easily be caught in close combat due to their mobility.

Survivability-wise, they're definitely more survivable than the HF/MM, due to the longer range at which they'll be operating from. There are certainly fewer 36" weapons than 12" weapons, and this is made moreso if the player keeps his Tyhoons at the 48" range, sacrificing the Heavy Bolter for security.

Bottom line this this; if you need/want a unit can can put out some great long range fire from a mobile platform, the Land Speeder Tyhoon is for you. If you hate AV10 in your backfield, it's not.

Other Builds: You'll see a few other builds around, such as Assault Cannon with a Heavy Bolter, a single MM or HF, and dual MM, HF, or HB. I, personally, dismiss these options. I can't claim personal experience, so take my opinion for what it is, but the theory just doesn't work for me. With dual weapons, you can only move up to 6" and fire both, which is sure to see your Speeder killed if it gets assaulted. With a single weapon, you lack versatility, and with the Assault Cannon... why not pay the same amount for a Tyhoon? Yes, it is possible to use these other builds effectively, but conventional wisdom goes against you.

Survivabiltiy: Ah, the big issue with Land Speeders. AV10. Yes, it's weak. Yes, bolter fire can kill it. Yes, a Multi-laser has a really good shot at killing it. Yes, a Krak missile has a 2/3 chance of penetrating. But look on the bright side... they're not open topped!

For me, this comes down to how you use your Speeder. In my last game, a Land Speeder of mine died without killing a thing. It died from a 5 man unit of Sniper Scouts firing their bolt pistols at it and immobilizing it while it had a Flat Out save. This was unlikely, but it happened. The game before that, it popped a Land Raider, dumping the Assault Terminators inside out, and leaving them 2 turns away from charging me.

The point of this narative is to illustrate what can happen to your Land Speeder. But to counter it, you have the huge potential impact.

Yes, an AV10 vehicle within 12" of your opponent will not last long. It's not a matter of if, but of when, they will die. If extreme survivability is a requirement for you when you build your lists, then just stop reading now, because Speeders are not tough to kill.

WE ALL KNOW SPEEDERS ARE EASY TO KILL. That's not the issue in question here. The really debate is if a Speeder can be useful, despite this. My answer is a firm yes. Your opponent cannot kill you if he's dead, with is what a Heavy Flamer does to IG squads. Killing a Leman Russ is something that affects the rest of the game, and can completely shift things. Speeders can, and do, cause serious damge in most cases.

Given their ability to deepstrike or move 12" and fire, Land Speeders bring great mobility and flexibility to delivering heavy weapons, and for that reason alone, I find their potential to exceed their faility. Like always, YMMV.

Vs. Attack Bikes: My final point on Land Speeders is their use compared to Attack Bikes. Their uses can and do overlap, and they compete for the same Force Org slot. My points on this will leave some of you wanting, and some of you calling me a moron. This is because I don't take a stance. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

Attack Bikes has 2 potential roles. Either anti-tank, if you give them Multi-meltas, or anti-infantry, if you keep their Heavy Bolters. They cannot have both, like a Land Speeder, and they cannot have a Typhoon ML. For this reason, an Attack Bike will never achieve the versatility, nor the flexibility of a Land Speeder. They cannot deep strike, and their Turbo Boosters is extremely different than moving Flat Out. They are cheaper in points, but have very different capabilities.

About the only thing they both have in common is sharing Fast Attack slots, and being heavy weapon delivery platforms. Thus, while we can't directly compare them on a point-for-point basis, we can argue which is the better use of a FA slot, and which one should be in an army list. Without an army list to work with though, it is extremely difficult to do this. Attack Bikes generally fill holes in a list, while Land Speeders tend to define the list.

I'll leave the Speeder vs. Bike discussion up to y'all!

Conclusions: I hope you read this wall of text long enough to get to this point. What have we learned/reviewed today class? Well, let's recap.

There are 2 primary builds for a Speeder: HF/MM, and Typhoon with a Heavy Bolter.

HF/MM is versitile, deadly, and extremely mobile. It can move 12" and deliver a killer weapon, and Flat Out to get cover saves on its way to its target.

Typhoon puts out great firepower from great range. Move 12" and fire 2 Kraks, or 2 frags and a Heavy Bolter. Or move 6 and fire 2 kraks and a Heavy Bolter. Works great for anti-armor, MC, or infantry. It does all this from long range, somewhat mitigating the poor armor. Essentially takes the place of a Devastator Squad.

Other builds exists, but are not nearly as effective or optimal.

Yes, Speeders die easily, but they can put out a great amount of firepower before they go down.

Between them and Attack Bikes, it's hard to draw direct comparisions. Too different.

Discuss!

So, would you squad them up or run them individually? Whats you opinion on this, I didn't see it in the post but maybe I missed it. I like speeders and I am thinking about making them into squads so I can run more then one since I like them so much. I know it probably lowers there survivability even more then what it already is.

wont get any disagreement from me. speeders are a good deal harder to kill than gossip around the campfire would have it.

I used to use the MM/HF speeder build but many times its more of a sucicide unit which many times ddin't make their points back due to my luck of rolling snake eyes. I play blood angels and I use 2 Typhoon speeders, each in their own squad to aviod the squadron rule. They fill in the lack of long range str8 an all infantry fast jump army has, and they can keep up and use their HB if need be.

I made a thread about land speeders vs attack bikes, and it was really hard to distinguish which was the better since they both have their pros and cons.

A couple guys at my LGS call me "the speeder guy" because of how much I love my speeders. Typhoons and HF/MM speeders, oh how I love thee.

1 or 2 speeders is a suicide unit. half a dozen is a hammer. it would be a suicide unit if they had anything left to shoot you with

armor 10 doesnt matter if all their best stuff is dead.

The problem I see with speeders is that they get shot down as a first target by the ungodly amount of anti-lowAV weapons out there and with AV10, they are decimated by weapons that have been taken to take down ~AV12.

This makes me think that they are really a liability. Most of the time I see them using the MM anyways, so having the HFlamer usually pretty unused.

With that in mind (and that is just from what I have seen, mind you) that the MM is the only weapon used, making the almost better choice MM attack bikes. Also the fact of having 2 wounds (iirc), added with some melta bikes for more bodies, you got a pretty survivable unit that is delivering the same weapon that the Speeder was trying to do but got shot down by the common Missle Launcher, Autocannon, Hive Guard, Bright Lance, Hydra, etc.

Yes, there are a bunch of things that can equally take down the marines on bikes (anything with a worthwile ap) but the only thing out there that will ignore that flat out bike cover save (which is an amazing 3+ remember) is the hydra, where you are getting your armor (which is the same) anyways.

Bikes cost more, this is obvious. But the guarantee of them getting there in about the same time, is a good pay off, especially when the weapons are meant to go after the heavy armored stuff that will (in most cases) wreck. your. face. Heavy armored vehicles usually got some nasty weapons to take out some heavy amounts of marines.

My opinion: Bikes, more models and more guns for more points make for a near guarantee of a kill on some pretty crucial units.

Nenya97 wrote:The problem I see with speeders is that they get shot down as a first target by the ungodly amount of anti-lowAV weapons out there and with AV10, they are decimated by weapons that have been taken to take down ~AV12.

you have to hold them in reserve and deep strike them if you dont have the first turn.... otherwise yeah like you say they get shot down without doing anything.

This makes me think that they are really a liability. Most of the time I see them using the MM anyways, so having the HFlamer usually pretty unused.

the multi melta is usually the primary but there are times you dont want a multi melta. 10 points for a heavy flamer isnt alot to pay to improve the units flexibility.... then it can engage any target at all.

With that in mind (and that is just from what I have seen, mind you) that the MM is the only weapon used, making the almost better choice MM attack bikes. Also the fact of having 2 wounds (iirc), added with some melta bikes for more bodies, you got a pretty survivable unit that is delivering the same weapon that the Speeder was trying to do but got shot down by the common Missle Launcher, Autocannon, Hive Guard, Bright Lance, Hydra, etc.

the land speeder is more maneuverable, more flexible, and more resilient than the attack bike. land speeders can fly over terrain that gets in the way of attack bikes. and they can deep strike. they carry a second weapon and so can engage a wider range of targets. and the same weapons that force a land speeder to roll on the vehicle damage table inflict instant death on bikes. also they cannot be caught in assault the way attack bikes can. for 20 extra points its a pretty solid upgrade.

Yes, there are a bunch of things that can equally take down the marines on bikes (anything with a worthwile ap) but the only thing out there that will ignore that flat out bike cover save (which is an amazing 3+ remember) is the hydra, where you are getting your armor (which is the same) anyways.

Bikes cost more, this is obvious. But the guarantee of them getting there in about the same time, is a good pay off, especially when the weapons are meant to go after the heavy armored stuff that will (in most cases) wreck. your. face. Heavy armored vehicles usually got some nasty weapons to take out some heavy amounts of marines.

what if they dont have any heavy vehicles? or what do you do once youve killed them all?

Maneuverability is an issue that is something you mentioned, the bikes are still able to move quite a ways to make up for it and if you deploy right, they are going to still be effective.

In the thought of getting second turn, what happens is that the bikes can easy get a 4+ cover at the least and still deliver their payloads against advancing highAV units like short ranged firepower coupled with highAV, land raiders, and even able to pop the transports with guys that might be advancing to wreck their face when they get out, giving you a chance to shoot them.

I don't want to get into it too much but there are ways to compensate for the lackings of bikes compared to Landspeeders. Their inability to deepstrike right into their lines is a nice thing but by turn 2, the table can start to get cluttered and very hard to deep strike very close and an expecting opponent can plan for this.

Putting something on the board and making your opponent think about wth to do about it can be a lot easier than trying to avoid DS attack, which is much easier.

The skimmer ability is nice but with a long flat out move and the inability to fire when doing so, the two units make it close enough (especially with MM's) in the same amount of time to their targets.

The upside of the bikers is their durability in a world of "all comers" lists having to be focused on taking down opposing transports and only a couple of units going towards heavy tanks. Only those heavy tank hunters have the real weapons to take down the bikers in one go (like meltas or fists etc) and if they are going towards your bikes, it lets your own heavies keep living and killing (LR Vindies etc).

Speeders are fragile and risky to use. Makes them a huge liability for a little less points. I do not think that is worth it when a much more reliable unit can do the same job a lot more reliably.

I guess I did forget to add in the bit about squadrons.

The way I see it, squadrons of 3 tend to fall victim to the problem of only being able to target one unit. I like either solo, or squadrons of 2.

Solo does get you around the immobilized=dead rule, but if you move flat out in the previous turn, an immobilize will be a wrecked anyways. Then you get a turn without a cover save to do your damage. At least for MM/HF Speeders, 1 turn is often all it takes to make your points. Anything more is just a bonus.

For Typhoons, going with 2 in a unit gives you immunity from stunned results, which is great for keeping those backfield fire support Speeders firing.

Glaces are actually a concern in general with Speeders, what with their ability to be glanced by strength 4. Ignoring that stunned result is, I find, a big deal. Sure, you say, it's only 1/6 results. But so is an immobilize. And the immobilize is somewhat mitigated by 2 factors. (1) If you flat out, immobilize is a wreck anyways. (2) An immobilize might as well be a wreck on a MM/HF speeder, because it's going down shortly, and its weapons are probably no longer in range.

So, on a MM/HF speeder, you ignore 1 of the 6 results, and 1 of the other 6 results becomes worse. However, due to the 2 mitigating conditions mentioned earlier, an immobilize is already nearly as bad as a wreck, and it might even already be a wreck from flat out. Therefore, the ignoring 1 result comes out on top, especially when it helps a heavy weapon keep firing.

As a side note: single Speeders give up kill points easier too.

Squadrons =

On the subject of Speeders vs. Attack Bikes

I'd rather this thread not devolve into a pure "speeders vs. bikes" thread, because there are plenty of those. But here's how I see it.

Yes, there is overlap. They can both do either mobile Multi-melta or mobile anti-infantry. But Speeders can carry weapons that can do either, whereas a bike MUST choose (don't say T/L Boltguns on MM bikes. Just don't).

The Typhoon is completely unique to Speeders, so this discussion really comes down to MM/HF or MM Bike. On that subject, here's basically what it comes down to. Get T4(5), 2W, 3+ Armor Bike, or AV10. Which one is more survivable? Well, it depends. Both die horribly to melta, but a Speeder actually shrugs off krak missiles a fair bit of the time (undesirable damage result, 1 to pen, etc), while a Bike is far more vulnerable to small arms. The Bike can get stuck in close combat, but it's much more resiliant to Heavy Bolters and Multi-lasers than the Speeder.

Apples to oranges, as I said in the OP. Pick your flavor, and work from there. But I'll repeat here what I said in the OP.

Bikes are more geared towards filling holes in your list. Speeders tend to define your list. If you're taking 1 Speeder, you're probably going to take more than 1 unit. MM Attack Bikes are rarely seen in multiple units. They're often the go-to unit for "hey, I need more mobile melta," whereas Speeders tend to get the "I'm running Vulkan, so I should probably throw in 2 units of 2x MM/HF Speeders."

I understand you do not want this to come down to bikes vs speeders but do not discount them so lightly because they do what the speeders do primarily (tank hunt) with more reliability. It is something you have to take into account when deciding the uses/roles of speeders not as just a versatile unit that can be considered sub par compared to its counterpart. Versatility is a nice thing but when you are faced with a spam, you want a couple of ways of reliably knocking it out and since most armies today are so geared at anti-mech, it makes the speeders a poor choice because people are sacrificing the ap of weapons for volume of mostly below S8 shots. Even Eldar are realizing to keep up with the amount of stuff on the board, they have to sacrifice lances here and there to put bodies out to fight.

Then why not have a list where you can have both? 2x2 HF/MM Speeders and a unit of MM attack bikes?

You end up getting the versatile units as well as the more reliable source of punch while spending roughly 440 points on FA and having your bases reliably covered while still offering versatility in more cases than not. And, they both are beneifiting if you are using vulkan.

The problem with your logic on missles is that speeders still take as much damage from krak missles as the bikes do...

1's on the pen/wound = nothing for either

2's on the pen/wound =
-bikes w/ flat out cover: 66% no damage
-bikes in open = one dead, more to come

-Speeders w/ flat out: .5 to all chances of damage
--Glances...
--50% Not shooting next turn (effectively dead for turn)
--13% Not shooting OR moving next turn (effectively dead for turn)
--13% Weapon Dead (chosen most effective, your current target/most dangerous is now out of reach)
--13% Dead from flat out or squadran

3's to pen/wound =
Bikes: Same damage chances

Speeders with flat out: .5 to all chances
---Penetrating...
---50% Dead from flat out or squadran
---Most all damage is bad for short range weapons (basing off 12" melta-want)

Either way, if either of them get hit, even on a 2+ to pen/wound they are still out of commission, the bikes turbo boost gives them a bit more of a resiliency to this effect. It gives them the boost for a little more points by fielding them in units for 10 points more for 3 models than for 2 that die from missle fire. This example becomes even more horriffying for the speeder, in comparison, when you talk about S9/10 weapons because they are still affecting the bikes the same and the speeder harsher. While on the flipside of going to lower S values, you now have marine armor saves and only dealing 1 wound. Yes, the speeder gets hit less hard as well but retaining its only .5 cover save and with lower S usually comes more shots, and a .5 cover is not enough to keep up.

Also, non-meq armies are not even using krak missles to take down lowAV, they are using higher AP weapons with more volume so your marines still get those armor saves and the same negation of any effect on top of having multiple wounds before being knocked out.

How can you say that bikes hunt tanks "more effectively"?

Both are BS4 multi-meltas, and both can move 12" and fire. I suppose the Speeder is 10 points more, which could account for your statement, but that's getting a Heavy Flamer on top of it, so the tank hunting aspect is really the same.

Besides which, no one takes Bike or Speeder Squadrons to counter mech spam. If you're relying on your 120 point bike unit to take out 55 point transports, you're playing a losing game. Melta is there to take out the heavy armor (Land Raiders, Leman Russes, Battlewagons, Predators), and perform area denial. If you're sending your attack bikes after Chimeras or Rhinos, that's an entirely separate discussion.

Maybe I just don't fully understand your point about facing spam. Do we mean Razorback or Chimera spam? If so, fast attack melta in general is far from optimal, and you really want long range anti-tank instead.

In my opinion, the Attack Bike just fills far too much of a niche roll in a Space Marine army. All they can do, cost effectively, is kill heavy armor.

You should have other units who can deal with a Land Raider (redundancy), but you put the Attacks Bikes in there to specifically hunt AV14 (specialization). This problem with this is when your opponent doesn't bring a Land Raider or any other AV14/13 to the table. A unit of Attack Bikes can, at best, only hunt transports or Monstrous Creatures now. They'll never make their points back.

On the other hand, at 10 points per model more, you have a unit that can do EVERYTHING the Attack Bikes can do, plus clear out infantry. Have you ever laid down a Heavy Flamers on an IG squad, hitting 3/4 of the squad with the template? Toast. Genestealers? Come again. Scouts in cover? Goodbye.

Versatility is my way of saying that one unit can do everyone that another can, plus more. When you have that, does survivability against a Krak Missile even matter anymore?

shealyr wrote:How can you say that bikes hunt tanks "more effectively"?

that didnt compute with me either. I thought for a moment he was talking about running squadrons but since you can run speeders in squadrons too....

Versatility is my way of saying that one unit can do everyone that another can, plus more. When you have that, does survivability against a Krak Missile even matter anymore?

the speeder is more survivable isnt it...... the bike has a better cover save but the speeder rolls on the damage table. it doesnt suffer instant death.

What about LSS?

Reliably as in more durability and 3 shots for 150 pts as opposed to 2 shots for 140 ots added to the armor save and survivability against anything <S8.

Having to roll on the damage table is effectively being dead like I pointed out earlier, the only situation that is favorable for shooting next turn is immobolized, but you have a relatively short ranged weapon, effectively killing the speeder just as badly or literally killing them in the case of a squadran.

It seems to me that the fragility, especially in the case of squadrans, of speeders is too risky and deep striking is not reliable enough because of problems that can happen on an easily cluttered board. Coupled with the increase in saves for the bikers, more shots, and the ability to effectively get to where they need to go just as quickly, makes the contest for a FA slot a little one sided to me.

Now, I haven't played marines that much but I am interested in seeing how this works out because I am working on starting blood angels.

HF/MM Speeders are amazing normally, godlike if you have Vulkan.
LS Typhoons are ridiculous, though. Amazing fire support.

One thing that people overlook frequently with regards to squadrons of HF/MM speeders is that you can often get away with assigning non-destroying hits to a single model in the squadron. So if you take a weapon destroyed and a shaken from different units, you can put it on one model. This type of allocation can actually make it hard to completely neutralize a squadron, taking a disproportionate amount of firepower.

When you say that a shaken result effectively kills the unit for a turn, this is not true. Its much closer to pinning the unit than killing it, but the model can still move. One of the greatest problems with the MM bikes is that they can be tied up in CC. Generally if you are close enough to get the 2d6 shot off, you are close enough to be assaulted. By contrast, CC is not nearly as effective in dealing with speeders as you need 6s to hit, and you can't hold the speeder in combat.

The added flexibility of having the HF can't be underestimated as well. Sometimes there just isn't a good target for your MM, and that's when the MM bike would find itself without a good target, but the speeder is still a huge threat with its HF.

I use a squadron of 2 HF/MM speeders as a suicide/distraction unit, and a typhoon @ 1500 points. Over 1500, I add in another typhoon. Keep in mind this is a mechanized list though, so the strategy of the speeders is thematic. In other lists, either biker or foot lists, likely the bikes would fit better.

I like Land Speeders. They give Bolters something to shoot at.

Seriously, I think you need to examine the vulnerability of Land Speeders in greater depth.

Remember that multiple Weapon Destroyed and Immobilized results convert to Destroyed (Wrecked) results eventually.

A regular Land Speed can absorb two such damage results, leaving it weaponless and immobilized, before there's a 2/6 Destroyed result for glancing it. In a squadron a Land Speeder with its Weapon Destroyed will convert all such results to Immobilized results, and be Destroyed (Wrecked).

Tornadoes and Typhoons can absorb three such damage results. Same implications for squadrons apply.

Consider that a Bolter with one shot hits, wounds, and fails the save of an Attack Bike on an average of 0.07. A Land Speed will suffer Weapon Destroyed or Immobilized on an average of 0.04.

But that's not the end of the story: Land Speeders can also be Stunned and Shaken, be made impotent before they are destroyed. To neutralize a Land Speeder you just have to Stun it, or cause a Weapon Destroyed result. That's an average of 0.09. You have to destroy the Attack Bike. In a squadron, you have a 0.09 of neutralizing a Land Speeder with a Bolter shot, and a 0.02 of destroying it.

A squad of Space Marines can have 10 Bolter shots, giving them a 1/6 chance of killing a Land Speeder in a squadron. That's if they don't have a Plasma Gun, Melta Gun, or Missile Launcher in the squad.

Because when it comes to weapons that can penetrate a Land Speeder, such as a Heavy Bolter, life gets worse.

Land Speeder vs Heavy Bolter (BS4)
Stunned: 0.24
Shaken: 0.12
Weapon Destroyed: 0.12
Immobilized: 0.12
Destroyed (Wrecked & Explodes): 0.12

Land Speeder Squadron vs Heavy Bolter (BS4)
Stunned: 0.36
Weapon Destroyed: 0.12
Destroyed (Wrecked & Explodes): 0.24

Land Speeder Squadron vs Krak Missile (BS4)
Stunned: (0.12)(4/6)+(0.45)(2/6) = 0.23
Weapon Destroyed: (0.12)(1/6)+(0.45)(1/6) = 0.10
Destroyed (Wrecked & Explodes): (0.12)(1/6)+(0.45)(3/6) = 0.25

The thing that people often overlook when concerning vehicle squadrons is that you assign penetrating and glancing hits to vehicles BEFORE you roll for damage, really negating the certain avoidance of entire vehicle destruction.

Think about it this way in terms of the HFlamer, a decent player will most notably realize this is a threat and react for it. Yes, the speed of it can really surprise someone and maybe hit an entire IG unit that came out of a transport. These are too situational to really be effective, which is a problem I've had with flamers entirely. Land Speeders are just as mono-dimensional as the bikes for 10 points left for a 2 speeder unit as opposed to a 3 man attack bike unit.

CC is not an option for most armies against speeders, if you are running down speeders, you have gotten desperate to protect something. It is an answer for bikes because, yes, you can bog them down in combat but the speed of bikes can just as easily avoid this kind of confrontation, or at least halt it until after it has delivered its payload

If you want to look at point efficiency as well, two MM on attack bikes is 40 pts less than the 2 speeders. That is quite a lot and a lil more than half of the cost of that second speeder.

The HFlamer is a weapon that is used when your opponent is forced out of a transport, only a fool would line up vulnerable units such as IG, stealers, Eldar, DEldar, etc (orks would do it though cuz they just there to kill stuff and have fun )

Shaken results still play a role in how little of a cost to your opponent it can be to fire a couple s6-7 shots to stop these guys from shooting where the attack bikes force either a large piece of anti-tank weapons to get down in 1-2 volleys with a superior cover save. You have to devote more to killing bikes, making them in comparison, more able to get to their target by turn 2 or waste a multiple amount of points on your opponents' side to take them out entirely because if they do not, they still get melta'd.

If there really is not a target for a MM against someone, they have probably already lost or you are not thinking of the hardest hitting targets in their army can still be hindered by those shots. Battlewagons, artillery, manticores, vinidis, preds, destroyers, prisms, ravagers, LRs and so on... I find it hard to really not have a target for these guys' MM. I forgot to mention MCs which can flood a field for the nids and make an easy amount of points back.

Versatility in the form of just having two weapons ends up just kind of being a waste because your opponent is going to strategize against these guns especially against their weakness.

Speeders are cool. I didn't even know people hated on them. I'd say multi-melta and heavy flamer is the best combination, but assault cannons have their uses.

I sincerely wish chaos had something like them. Our FA slots are notorious for being the worst ever.

A typhoon speeder should never be taking bolter shots, so you should leave that out of consideration. The typhoon is fast enough and longer range such that if it is taking shots, that is because the rest of the typhoon's army is gone and the game is essentially over as the enemy occupies all of the board.

^Nurglitch you have confused Shaken with Stunned in your post.

Your numbers seem off.

Heavy bolter averages against a speeder squadron

Shaken (3*4/6) * (1/6 * 4/6) + (1/6 * 2/6) = 12/6 * 4/36 + 2/36 = 12/6 * 6/36 = 1/3 = 0.33
Weapon Destroyed: (3*4/6) * (1/6 * 1/6) + (1/6 * 1/6) = 12/6 * 2/36 = 4/36 = 0.11
Destroyed (Wrecked & Explodes): (3*4/6) * (1/6 * 1/6) + (1/6 * 3/6) = 12/6 * 4/36 = 0.22

Cover of course cuts that in half.

If you don't get your kill with the first shot, subsequent kills eliminate the damage result as you can kill off the damaged speeder. That's the allocation I'm referring to, you can have a units damage negated if you don't kill it in the first try, simply because I can allocate the next unit's shooting onto the already damaged model.

10 bolter shots give you a 40/6 * 1/6 * 1/6 average wrecks (40/216 = 0.185) which is slightly above 1/6.

Now lets do the same squad of 10 bolters shooting at a MM biker.

40/6 * 2/6 * 2/6 = 160/216 = 0.74. The 10 bolter shots will kill the MM biker faster.

So what does this all demonstrate? That a bunch of bolters will kill bikers faster than landspeeders (average 3 turns on bikers and over 5 turn on a speeder).

Speeders should have an 'armoured version' like sentinels. AV11 would negate the possibility of lucky bolter shots.

Agreed, I'd love to see the Tempest (IA variant) speeder in the standard codex - with a plastic model of course!

Dracos:

You are correct, I did mix up Shaken with Stunned. Oopsy.

Speaking of numbers being off, it looks like I made some errors in arithmetic (which'll teach me not to show my work).

The Heavy Bolter rolls to hit with 3 dice, hitting on 3+ (4/6), glancing on 5 and penetrating on 6, meaning that you have:

[(number of shots)(BS)][(likelihood of damage result)(likelihood of glancing)+(likelihood of damage result)(likelihood of glancing)]

So for Shaken we would see:

Shaken
[(3)(4/6)][(1/6)(4/6)+(1/6)(2/6)] =
(12/6)(4/36+2/36) =
(12/6)(6/36) =
0.33... =
0.33

The Weapon Destroyed and Destroyed results follow proportionately.

At a rate of 0.66 Damage results per Heavy Bolter, that's like rolling 1D6 and on a 3+ a damage result and favourable. That's popping Termagants with Bolters.

As I mentioned, Bikers can only be killed faster if you disregard the additive effects of Weapon Destroyed and Immobliized.

A squadron of Land Speeders with a Weapon Destroyed will convert more than the Immobilized results to Destroyed, because if you run out of Weapon Destroyed results, they convert to Immobilized, and hence to Destroyed (Wrecked). Being able to allocate a unit's shooting to a damaged model simply increases its likelihood of being destroyed, rather than saving over models.

So let's not just talk about what should happen because not all games are composed entirely of optimal situations and tactics. A Typhoon should never be in Bolter range, but frequently will be. This must be accounted.

I guess when considering the vulnerabilities of bikers, I assumed for 3 of them, which may have been misleading sorry.

With that train of though, I was going on the idea that they retain their potency against small arms fire while still being able to shoot if the unfortunate events of a death occur.

With the equivalent for the speeder being an inability to deliver it's payload, just give the opponent another chance to get them later. Also, in the even that they take a weapon or immobilize them, they either die or become ineffective. HFlamer doesn't do a lot to marines in this case, making the obvious choice the MM and making it useless.

It is easy to dedicate a small amount of points to stopping the delivery of a speeder and getting to move on to other things. This, is the problem I have with speeders is that small arms fire can stop their delivery while the bikes keep moving, against S8+ weapons, they both falter but the SM retain a 3++ before delivery.

I think from this we can take the following conclusion:

Landspeeders take more shots to kill, but less to neutralize for a least a turn.

Bikers will overall die faster but will be able to contribute their offensive output more frequently until they die.

Dracos:

Exactly, and being able to deliver firepower earlier in the game is better. Once a Land Speeder is neutralized, firepower can be more efficiently distributed to meeting and neutralizing/destroying other threats. I think too many people manage to neutralize them and then try to kill them, rather than moving onto more immediate problems. Attack Bikes are going to require more firepower to be destroyed than Land Speeders are going to require to be neutralized.

One caveat is that neutralizing for a turn (shaken) will mean that over the course of a game, you will still have to dedicate more firepower to continually neutralizing them. I guess its a good likelyhood that you will have more firepower in the subsequent turns as a result of neutralizing them.

Another thing about squads of bikers vs squadrons of landspeeders is that getting a kill of a speeder doesn't force a leadership test like it does bikers, and landspeeders are immune to pinning. Landspeeders also are much harder to neutralize in CC than bikers.

Also bikers can't negate prior shooting through allocation. Landspeeders can. If 2 different units get shaken results, you can put them both on the same speeder. In order to put down a squad of speeders, you have to force allocation to each model by a single unit. Normally this requires a disproportionately large amount of firepower.

So its not quite as clear cut as "Landspeeders are neutralized more easily".

edit: I guess the point here is that squadrons force a diminishing return of firepower when shooting at the landspeeders for each unit targeting them , Bikers don't benefit from this.

I use typhoon missile launchers just for the reason that those pesky bolters are out of range. That and getting side armor shots off on AV 10-12 with S8 weaponry is amazing.

I wouldn't say it's a good likelihood, but it's more likely that the less firepower used to neutralize the Land Speeders the more will be available to destroy them later.

Speaking of Bikers being pinned or failing morale checks, at Ld9 you have a 1/6 chance of failing either test. They'll only be pinned by specific pinning weapons, and falling back doesn't impair shooting (too much thanks to Relentless), and as Space Marines they have And They Shall Know No Fear.

Also, Nenya97 pointed out that glancing and penetrating hits are allocated before roll for damage. If your squadron of two Land Speeders takes two glancing hits, each Land Speeder is going to at least be Shaken. See p.64 of the Rulebook for details.