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So, I know that there's been a lot of buzz around power blobs recently, but while the topic is hot I thought I'd throw something in that I've been thinking about.

I want to redo by blob list without al'rahem. The special character is good, don't get me wrong, but I want to see what I've been missing by including him in my lists. Plus, I'm going to be in an escalation league soon, which means I'm not going to be able to field him for awhile anyways.

I've got the core of my army down, and it looks like this:

CCS, 3x melta

PCS, 3x melta
PIS, meltagun, power weapon, meltabombs, commissar, power weapon
PIS, meltagun, power weapon, meltabombs
PIS, meltagun, power weapon, meltabombs, commissar, power weapon
PIS, meltagun, power weapon, meltabombs

PCS, 3x melta
PIS, meltagun, power weapon, meltabombs, commissar, power weapon
PIS, meltagun, power weapon, meltabombs
PIS, meltagun, power weapon, meltabombs, commissar, power weapon
PIS, meltagun, power weapon, meltabombs

Which brings me to 980 points.

With all the meltaguns and meltabombs, I'm pretty set against most vehicles, and with all the power weapons I'm obviously pretty covered against power armor, while the sheer quantity of soldiers will make me good enough against hordes for now.

There are a couple of holes in this list though. They are high toughness units, like wraitguard, wraithlord, and tervigons. Also, they are skimmers, most notably nightshield DE raiders and wave serpents. Finally, I feel like there are certain other units like jetbikes and to a lesser extent jump pack marines that have the potential to cause me bother.

The question is, how to I advance to 1500? I've been thinking about lots of ways to handle this skimmer+MC problem, and, in addition to all those new meltaguns I'm bringing, have come up with a few options (generally ranked most to least favorite).

OPTION 1: 3 units of 5 plasma stormies, 2 eviscerator priests, and one PCS being converted from 3x melta to power fist+commissar with power fist

I lose a couple of meltaguns, but I add a couple of eviscerators, which will also help all those meltabombs hit their targets. Meanwhile, being able to appear out of nowhere and nail rear armor with plasma seems like quite a deal, and I've really begun to appreciate the special maneuverability and harassing qualities of the stormtrooper. Also, I gain a little bit of higher-strength close combat power, being a cheaper version of what I was trying to do with ogryn and straken in earlier games.

OPTION 2: 3 basilisks, 2 eviscerator priests, upgrade CCS to plasma+power weapon

Artillery! Basically, this list takes advantage of the low, low price you pay to include basilisks in an army. While it doesn't handle heavier skimmers or monstrous creatures as well, it helps much better against things like jetbikes and assault marines. I mean, there really isn't a lot that a basilisk can't engage with a reasonable degree of success. Also, I get both priests and with the pure amount of extra anti-tank I'm bringing means I get to include more BS4 plasma in perpetual BiD range.

OPTION 3: 3 exterminators, lose one meltagun and add an eviscerator priest

Bringing only horde and AV14 is probably going to be rather challenging for my opponent to deal with. I also get to add at least one priest back into the list, which keeps things choppy. Plus, I'm sure this option will basically pants eldar opponents of both stripes (of which there are a few at my store). The biggest problem I have with this list is that, while being good against skimmers, it doesn't help me very much with anything else, and it puts down the least amount of overall firepower of all of my options.

OPTION 4: 6 Ogryn, lord commissar with carapace, camo cloak, powerfist, 2 eviscerator priests, upgrade CCS to 4x plasma, meltabombs

6 stealthed ogryn are going to be seriously hardcore and I've had more than one chance to use my lord commissar's leadership bubble in the past. The huge pile of S6 attacks on the charge means that almost any vehicle within 12" of where the ogryn start are going to be brutalized while I do have a thin chance of taking out things like monstrous creatures. These guys are thick and rugged and synergize well, but they suffer from the same problem as my infantry of needing to walk all the way over to my opponent in order to engage them. That and as I've played with them more and more, my opponents have been getting slowly more savvy about how to take them down.

OPTION 5: 3 3x missile launcher HWSs, 3 hydras, upgrade CCS to 3x plasma, power weapon

With the equivalent of 9 missile launcher and 18 autocannon shots a turn, this option puts out serious dakka. This is my least favorite option, though, because while there is a lot of firepower, there's also a lot of static stuff just chilling out in my deployment zone. Not only does this not help field position, but without al'rahem, I'm going to have a crowded deployment zone already. Plus, this option slathers on the kill points, which makes me a little uncomfortable.

OPTION 6: 9 lascannon scout sentinels, 1 eviscerator priest, CCS gets an extra meltagun.

Because lols. A 3x lascannon barrage actually stands a pretty reasonable chance of doing something to any armor class per turn of shooting, and if I outflank them, I'm basically guaranteed side armor. BY FAR the biggest liability with this list would be the whole sentinel bombs in my deployment zone thing.

So what do you think?

Is there anything I'm missing? I'm sure there are other good options out there.

I think I like the 3x Stormie + priests option. You get the plasma, in three different squads (so able to target 3 different units, while forcing the opponent to divide his fire), with all of the tactical flexibility that the stormies bring. From your battle reports, I think the priests seem to be a pretty beefy addition to your blobs, and I think they should be in there.

The basilisks are a solid choice too, but why not work it so you have no armour at all? That way all of your enemy's anti-tank is fairly useless.

Got to go for now, I had more to say but xmas shopping beckons - oh joy!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm gonna miss Rhamael....

Option 5 is best, although I'd say you're better of without vehicles, and using a mix of autocannons and lascannons for popping vehicles. Both of those are better than MLs at that job, and you don't need frag- your piles of guys with FRFSRF lasguns and piles of CC attacks are what kill infantry.

I know its not on the options list but why not throw in 2x Plasma Stormies and 2 Vendettas? You can use the vendettas for PCS/CCS field position if needed, objective contesting, 3x TLLC on AV 12 isnt too bad for 130. I run 2 Vendettas and I honestly believe they are one of the best buys in the whole codex. Also with this option all 4 options can outflank and if you wanted/needed to you could suicide the PCS's or some vets with the scout/turbo move. Plus since you rarely use vehicles nobody in your store would see it coming!

I like option 1 but you start getting into MSU territory with 3x5 stormies. You need the priests and to me the PF isnt that great a buy since its in a small squad and can be killed before its turn. What about 2 units of 5 plasma stormies, 2 hydras, 1 evisicerator priest and 2 plasma guns.

I like option 3 as I feel that in your lists the priests can never be a wrong choice, they add AT/AV and rerolls on big blobs can help take out more guys up front which will mean less over all deaths. Im not sold on spamming exterminators tho...why not 2 exterminators and a LRBT. The battle tank, while it does scatter, has a chance vs av 14, is ap3 for MEQ and can roll beside your troops while advancing and still fire its main gun. Another option is instead of 3 exterminators run 2x exterminators and 2x hydras. Then you keep the same volume of fire and improve your shots vs skimmers.

Option4; I think 6 stealth ogryn with attached Lord Commissar would indeed be a formidable foe. They have worked for you in the past and I like your Lord Commissar character, he makes me laugh. Not as much as Raust who is just the funniest character ever, but still is a good offset to Raust.

Option 6 is funny just because nobody would see it coming. You could do a weak kan type list like that as well. You could drop 3 scouts and put in a manticore as well. This was kinda hit/miss the batreps you had included it in but I think its also a very good buy.

P.S. I shall also miss Rhamael

murdog wrote: From your battle reports, I think the priests seem to be a pretty beefy addition to your blobs, and I think they should be in there.

Yeah, and every time I think about getting rid of priests, I get pictures like this in my mind...





... and then I dismiss such crazy notion from my mind. I think it's the biggest problem I have with the exterminator list.

murdog wrote: The basilisks are a solid choice too, but why not work it so you have no armour at all? That way all of your enemy's anti-tank is fairly useless.

So, the reason why I'd bring vehicles at all is because my opponents can write their lists up before the game. I'm trying to tone down their tailoring a bit. Obviously basilisks and hydras won't be that hard to stop, given their low numbers, which is why I've been so seriously considering exterminators (anti-heavy tank in my local meta is pretty light). I consider having just 3 pieces of AV12 to give me a few cheap, throwaway units that can do some damage and then die (not unlike the stormies).

murdog wrote: I'm gonna miss Rhamael....

Yeah.

The thing is, though, I'm going to be doing escalation soon, and I simply can't afford him under 1000 points anyways. As such, I see this as a time to learn what my army can do without special characters at all.

murdog wrote:I think I like the 3x Stormie + priests option.

It's my favorite option too (in the least of which because I basically already have the models for it already. I'd seriously consider 30 rough riders and 2 priests, but I'm nowhere close to that model-wise). I think my biggest concern is that, along with the exterminator, it's one of my low-power options. Being able to show up anywhere with plasma is pretty boss, but the end result is still just 6 plasma guns.

Mannahnin wrote:Option 5 is best, although I'd say you're better of without vehicles, and using a mix of autocannons and lascannons for popping vehicles.

Ugh, spamming only heavy weapons is the last option I'd consider. Without tanks to draw fire, all of my opponent's S6+ weapons are going straight for them, which means casualties in a hurry. Plus, this would take up a pretty substantial amount of an already very crowded deployment zone, while giving me five more easy-to-claim kill points. All for something that is static (so looses field support from the blob as it charges), and basically will always give my opponent cover.

Plus, I'd need to buy a whole bunch of heavy weapons teams.

Mannahnin wrote:Both of those are better than MLs at that job, and you don't need frag- your piles of guys with FRFSRF lasguns and piles of CC attacks are what kill infantry.

The reason for missile launchers is because of the target types I'm facing. With only AP4, autocannons have a tough time against monstrous creatures and are nearly worthless against everything else. The only way I'd take them is if they ignore SMF, or come on some sort of durable platform (like hydras or exterminators, respectively). Meanwhile, the lascannon does what the ML does only somewhat better, while costing more. I'd much rather have 3 ML teams than 2 lascannon ones.

Plus, it makes it so my opponent cant' just single out the most offensive units and be done with it all.

I honestly still feel like Option 3, with the durability of the Exterminators (and getting a priest) is your best bet. I see what you mean about Autocannons not being great against much else, but as you so adequately pointed out the rest of your list does pretty well against everything else. And with the exception of AV13-14, Autocannons are never BAD against stuff, they are simply subpar, but the durability and anti-list tailoring they give you seems to outweigh the drawbacks imo.

If not that, then probably option 2 with the Basilisks, though I hate how easy they are to take down. They make great bait however, so you can use that to your advantage I guess.

Yeah.

I guess the really tricky part is that there are a bunch of really ethereal factors here to balance. On the one hand, I want good killing power. However, I also want good field position, anti-list-tailoring, and psychological units.

As much as I really want to like the exterminator, I just can't quite choke down not having two priests. If only I could cut out one of my PCSs...

Yeah, Priests are awesome, really a tough call.

You might be able to incorporate more then one of these ideas, though that kills redundancy.

2xHWS, 2xExterminator, 2xPriest... something of that nature? I forgot how much the HWS cost, I know Exterms are 160 a piece, priests are 65 I believe? I have faith in your ability to make it work, but I am just trying spitball ideas around to give you stuff to think about and to help you come to a decision.

yeah, that's not going to happen. The real benefit of the exterminators is how much AV14 I'm fielding, and so I'm not particularly flush about the idea of bringing only two pieces. I'd have to trade it in for more than just a single priest for that to be worth it.

Part of it is that instead of spending 60 points on a priest, I'm spending 60 points on meltaguns in the blob squads. If I can those, I instantly get another priest. I kind of want to try the meltaguns, though. I just wish there was some way to make this all work out...

Good point, but that basically shuts down Exterminators as an option leaving you back with stormies or basilisks. so... good luck.

You're a crazy crazy man Ailaros. I gotta say though, you got guts. The one single thing I'm concerned about in your initial list is dealing with the Avatar. Only T6, but you're not going to touch him with those Meltas. Low point MC spam is always scary though. Best of luck to you.

To the topic however, my vote is with either option 2 or option 4.

Option 1:
I don't think 1 squad of powerfists is going to be able to do much against an enemy who's thinking his situation all the way through, combined with the fact that it's a 6 man squad wearing t-shirt armor hitting after space marines. If you do get anything with these guys, I'd expect it to be a handful of wounds (but the ones that matter) before the squad gets wiped out. The 3 squads of plasma stormies sound pretty awesome though.

Option 2:
As long as you can keep them safe, Basilisks are pretty ace for taking out about anything you want to from range, which is going to be your major shortcoming in this list. All of the fast skimmers out there are going to dance circles around you unless they get careless or you spread out REALLY far. Additionally, Can Opener Priests are always fun, and the plasma CCS would make the Avatar seem much less threatening.

Option 3:
I think I like this idea the least. I think I'd rather have Demolishers personally, and I think for the amount of infantry you have, you really need more than one priest.

Option 4:
Still keeping the plasma, this is an effective and fun option, and I think it seems to fit in with your playstyle really well, though I'm concerned that you're not going to be able to catch your opponent with the pain before it gets worn down too much.

Option 5:
This brings out a lot of pain, but you have enough mobile stuff that I think a few static pieces wouldn't be too debilitating. The kill-points are more terrifying, but I guess that's something you'll just have to decide for yourself. I do just want to point out that by my count, it's "only" one more kill point than options one or two.

Option 6:
I'm not sure about 3 lascannons, but I'm sure 9 would do something. Those are some fragile walkers though... All I have to say on this is that you'd want to outflank them every time, and if I were counting on ouflanking 3 squads of things, I'd want to make sure that I brought an Astropath.

Anyway, that's my 0.02 USD

daedalus wrote: The one single thing I'm concerned about in your initial list is dealing with the Avatar. Only T6, but you're not going to touch him with those Meltas.

Ah yes, but they're only T3. Time to break out a fresh case of lasgun polish. I've found that power weapons and lasguns alone have the power to deal with lesser MCs. Really it's just the T7+ W5+ and Sv3 MCs that give me a headache. Wraithlord are bad news bears...

To the topic however, my vote is with either option 2 or option 4.

daedalus wrote:I don't think 1 squad of powerfists is going to be able to do much against an enemy who's thinking his situation all the way through, combined with the fact that it's a 6 man squad wearing t-shirt armor hitting after space marines. If you do get anything with these guys, I'd expect it to be a handful of wounds (but the ones that matter) before the squad gets wiped out. The 3 squads of plasma stormies sound pretty awesome though.

I suppose I could invest the points in something else. I used to run something very similar to this in 4th ed with my SO and it worked rather well. Really, this list is all about the stormies.

daedalus wrote:As long as you can keep them safe, Basilisks are pretty ace for taking out about anything you want to from range, which is going to be your major shortcoming in this list. All of the fast skimmers out there are going to dance circles around you unless they get careless or you spread out REALLY far.

Actually, spreading out really far is easy for me, as I run horde.

Something deep in my brain tells me that this is a terrible idea. 3 pieces of AV12 will be tough to keep safe, artillery doesn't help me with field presence, and earthshaker cannons don't bring anything to my list that power weapons and meltabombs don't already, while not being all that stellar against MCs or skimmers.

... but basilisks ARE pretty ace...

daedalus wrote:I think I like this idea the least. I think I'd rather have Demolishers personally, and I think for the amount of infantry you have, you really need more than one priest.

Demolishers suffer from the same problem of the basilisk, but are much more costly. So costly, in fact, that I'd only be able to bring two, which is a little upsetting to me. The amount of damage done seems negligible for the points expense.

While making coffee at work I did think of a different way to do this. If I got rid of one of the PCS meltaguns and all of the PIS meltabombs I'd be able to get both three exterminators AND two priests. I like the meltabombs, and I like even more that the priest makes them reroll, but I'd rather have rerollable frag grenades than non-rerollable meltabombs most of the time.

That's the problem, really. Meltabombs are so cool, but looking back over the past several games I've found that I haven't gotten to use them very often, and never have they actually been responsible for destroying a vehicle...

daedalus wrote:Still keeping the plasma, this is an effective and fun option, and I think it seems to fit in with your playstyle really well, though I'm concerned that you're not going to be able to catch your opponent with the pain before it gets worn down too much.

Which is the problem, of course. These guys are really tough, and when my opponent doesn't have the tools to take them down appropriately, they TRASH stuff. The problem is that occasionally I'm going to face off against eldar who have no shortage of S6 Ap4 weapons which are REALLY unkind to my ogryn. They'd be getting stealth now, though, so maybe...

daedalus wrote:This brings out a lot of pain, but you have enough mobile stuff that I think a few static pieces wouldn't be too debilitating. The kill-points are more terrifying, but I guess that's something you'll just have to decide for yourself. I do just want to point out that by my count, it's "only" one more kill point than options one or two.

Yeah, I suppose. The problem with HWSs is that they're so easy to get kill points from. So are stormies, but I have much more confidence that a 2x plasma stormie squad will actually earn its keep moreso than a 3x ML HWS.

Basically, I see this as the same as the basilisk option, except the basilisk can move and shoot (most importantly, in from reserves) and at least gets to use its armor a little. It does have less firepower, though...

daedalus wrote:I'm not sure about 3 lascannons, but I'm sure 9 would do something. Those are some fragile walkers though... All I have to say on this is that you'd want to outflank them every time, and if I were counting on ouflanking 3 squads of things, I'd want to make sure that I brought an Astropath.

Basically, this option is turning 3 2x plasma harassment units into 3 3x lascannon harassment units. I'll probably (though not necessarily) be outflanking them, but I don't all that much see the need for an astopath as these guys have, what, a 48" threat range straight off the board? That should be good enough.

i think your last suggestion of dropping the melta bombs and some of the melta guns and getting 3 exterminators and 2 priests is the way to go.

the priests will do more for you than the melta bombs and they force multiply your blobs. the 3 exterminators, while a little underpowered allows you to really shove yours blobs down their throught with greater durability. i think that the small decrease in power is made up for in an increase in your armies ability to take the initiative.

I like this:

CCS with 3 MG's

Lord Commissar with Carapace, PF and Cloak

2 units of 5 Stormies with Plasma

2 Priests with Evicerators

Power Blob #1
PCS with Commissar 2 power fists
2 Squads with flamers, PW Commissars, Sgts with melta bombs and PW's
2 squads with flamers and Sgts with melta bombs and PW's

Power Blob #2
PCS with 3 MG's
2 Squads withMG's, PW Commissars, Sgts with melta bombs and PW's and
2 squads with MG's and Sgts with melta bombs and PW's

2 Exterminators with Hull Lascannons
1 Basilisk

Sure, but that's a 1775 point list, and I'm only looking at 1500 right now. Plus, two exterminators do less damage against the kinds of targets I'm looking for than three exterminators (which also bring an extra piece of AV14).

As for the exterminator list, I think that's what I'm going to try for this monday, probably. Hopefully I'll be able to test them out in less-ideal circumstances, as if they do as crappy as I suspect they will when there isn't a bunch of AV12 to shoot, that might be the final tally for the stormies.

Although, unlike the real world, my infantry move FASTER than my tanks (I "go go go!" farther than I lumbering behemoth), which means the tanks would be riding in behind the infantry, not the other way around.

Ailaros wrote:
So, the reason why I'd bring vehicles at all is because my opponents can write their lists up before the game. I'm trying to tone down their tailoring a bit.

Ah-hah. Now I see the dilemma. Well, most of your vehicles are modular, so why not do the same thing to them? Bring your stormies, tanks and artillery, and throw in the best unit for the battle at hand, or at least just different ones most times, to keep them on their toes. If you make a hard choice now, by the end of the league they'll know what to expect, and will plan for it accordingly. At the end of the day, your blobs are going to win you the battle - the rest of the units are just support.

I'd keep the meltabombs in there, you don't want to be tarpitted by a walker. Even with the priest, if he misses and the walker kills him, what then? Also, if the melta misses, or does nothing, you've got a backup plan.

I guess the basilisk option would be second for me, as since you no longer have rhameal and wouldn't have the stormies, at least you'd still have a way to get at hidden units.

Well, it all depends on how cheaty I want to be. If I wanted, I could probably get my opponent to show me his list first and then create something specifically designed to counter it. Or, less cheaty, I could have a list designed to face off of each different type of army.

Personally, I'd rather just have one list that I can just beat people with regardless of what they bring (and I've actually done a reasonable job at this, so far). I know the "perfect list" is fuitless, but I think it's possible to get close enough based on local meta.

I do see what you're talking about, though. Perhaps I could have a couple of lists that are all equally take-all-comers, but deliver the hurt in a bunch of different non-army-specific ways so that people wouldn't get too used to what I was bringing.

Ya, that's what I'm saying. I'm in the same camp as you, I'd rather bring an all-comers list every time. A few units that you could swap in and out just to keep them guessing would allow you to keep the same core, while being a little unpredictable. I can't see you showing up with a mechvet list all of a sudden, for instance, but if you had basilisks last week and exterminators this week kind of thing, that may be beneficial. 'Deliver the hurt in a bunch of non-army-specific ways' is exactly what I mean.

On the other hand, imo, having an idea of what support units would work best against particular armies or opponents isn't really that cheaty, if it's common knowledge that lists are built at the table. If you're playing a small number of players all the time, than it starts to get into arms race territory to some extent (ie. whoever has the most $ can field the most appropriate units for a particular opponent). But if there's a reasonable number of players in your group, it shouldn't be that big of a deal. I'm just thinking: they're going to do it to you, might as well keep your options open. You like to experiment with units anyways, it seems. Do you know the army you'll be facing, or even just your opponent, ahead of time? Or not till you get there?

The store has about 6 regulars, including myself, with another 4-6 semi-regulars. I don't know against who I'm going to be facing until the game itself. Usually it's a mix of people with set lists (even if they change, like mine), people who bring two lists and then choose which one before the game starts, and people who always cook up a fresh list before the game begins, about in equal number.

I'm currently at that second stage of list building where I've got the core style of the list down, but I haven't yet really settled in for sure on the range of things I think are best, which has meant a lot of experimentation. I'm starting to run out of things to experiment with though, which is why I'm kind of trying to consolidate things down a bit (hence this thread).

Basilisks.

I want to, I really do.

Like whenever I think of dropping the priests, I get the image of crazy dudes running around with 10-foot long chainsaw swords ("doorknockers" as a co-worker once called them) cutting a tank in half with pure insanity, I think of basilisks and my brain jumps to...









... and I'm like, I'd be crazy NOT to include 3 (or 9...)

I like the huge percieved threat, and the ability to hit hidden targets, and to still be plenty viable against vehicles while also being able to smear what just got out.

... but it's no good against skimmers or MCs. With the 3x hydras, I'm taking only 3 flimsey pieces of AV12 that will easily get blown up, but at least they'll kill something before they go down.

I don't have quite that same feeling with regards to the basilisk. Am I wrong?

I don't think adding just 3 bassies would be enough. All their anti tank (especially in the case of set lists, they will have some anti tank to boot) go right into the bassies and they're gone on your turn 2-3 or at least not shooting the entire game.

The ogryns fit the theme of your army. I recently got an ogryn in a deal from a friend at the flgs and I'm thinkin' of pickin up an ogryn every paycheck now til I get a ful unit for a power blob army. They may be expensive as sin but if you are going assaulty, they are your best bet when hidden in a blob for cover then bursting out to blast apart a group of tanks or lowS units.

Having only bassies at 1500 seems to me like any anti tank (low fire rate guns at least) will just blow right through them if your opponent plays right, at least shaking them into nothingness and then you basically got a 1000 points army.

If you really wanna encorporate tanks into your 1500 point army, I'd say just 3 LRs but not exterminators. Something like Demolishers or something with a rear AV11 to back up the assaulting element of your army so your entire army can go forth.

Another argument for something like 3 demolishers with lascannons (then priests to fill in points, they dont need eviscerators but the rerolls gotta help) is that you only got 2 units taking out 2 tanks....once they get there and at that point you have to choose between the tank and the unit. MSU armies will also be the best answer to the blobs so having those S10 ap2 large blasts might really help.

What do you think of demolishers w/lascannons, basically taking them instead of exterminators

Rofl when I got to the third picture. Deep sadness as well. Anyhoo.

I think you are wrong. What happens to a MC when it gets hit by a Basilisk? Or a skimmer? Cover saves are failed. The hydra is just a bs3 autocannon (I'd rather have the twin-link or reroll cover 3xAC HWS for the same price, more resiliant with cover+officer support, and 3xAC) which requires los, which the enemy can hide his superfast trannies and big baddies from before he flies where he wants them (or at least milk cover against the hydras). No hiding from 'ol Poppa Boom.

I don't even know why you'd need 3. For 1500 or less two pies is plenty. I run 1 bassy 1 lrbt at that points lvl. It's your infantry that are going to win the game. If you went with 2 and didn't upgrade the CCS you could get a naked russ; the battlecannon is like the earthshakers' little brother - can still kill anything in the game, from very far away. Deliver the hurt indeed. 3 pies, still get ur priests, and you get some AV14 out there.

I know you'll just say 'but they'll just target my single AV14 unit', but with the range allowing you to take full advantage of the terrain and AV14 it's not that simple. (Especially when Ailaros Power Blobs are coming at you). One thing i like about having a russ is that I'll have LOS blocking terrain for the bassy every game, if thats what I want. When the enemy gets within 36", you often have to option of moving the bassy or the russ to get a direct shot with the earthshaker.

Imo the only reason the hydra option even compares is because you'd get 3x ML HWS with it, 3x pie is better than 3x hydras. 3x hydras plus 9 ML's is probably equal dakka, but it's a bit of a different bag. Now that I think about it, it's probably your best package for cutting down skimmers and MC's, but you've already identified the chief weaknesses (deployment zone and killpoints), and have it as your least-favorite option.

You've got 3 good options - 3x pie, 3x stormies, or 3x hydra 3xMLHWS. I like them all, they each have their advantages and disadvantages. Vehicles can be useful to have, but easily taken out. Stormies are the lowest firepower option, but probably the most certain to bring down a specific target. Hydra/ML package will work because it puts out so much dakka, but it's sorta sloppy, and most easily neutralized (by hiding from it (though you'll have ALOT of crossfire) or killing it (it has to sit in LoS)). 3x pie is best for a balanced approach. It has the firepower to kill anything, and can be hidden or put out of range. The only thing is, it's probably least effective against MC's (BiD/FomT ML's) and skimmers (hydras). Exactly what you want to kill!

I think this brings me back to the stormies - surgically remove the offending units. The infantry will hold the line 'till they arrive. Besides, Daxos has enough regulars to keep disciplined, and the cannons may disturb his tea at the very least. A handful of efficient, disciplined and well-equipped killers that he never sees yet often make him look good would likely please him most.

Man, what a pain it is to be a Guard commander with so many choices about how to slaughter the enemy, eh?!?!

Hmm, you make much sense.

murdog wrote:I don't even know why you'd need 3.

because...

murdog wrote:No hiding from 'ol Poppa Boom, bitch!

(emphasis mine)

I hadn't thought about the AV14+2 bassies option. In this case, I could take an exterminator and worry somewhat less about the basilisks chief problem, which, as you say...

murdog wrote:The only thing is, it's probably least effective against MC'sand skimmers. Exactly what you want to kill!

This is the problem. I guess not AS big of a problem, perhaps, as I was thinking.

Something is just unsettling about taking 2 basilisks and a real tank as compared to taking 3 tanks or 3 bassies. It just feels like I'm missing redundancy. I do like the LOS blocking thing, though, but I don't like the idea of parking russes in the backfield (because that's what artillery (or in this case hydras) are for.

Hmm... perhaps 2 bassies and a squad of 2 hydras? That does actually start getting me towards some degree of AV12 spam...

murdog wrote:Besides, Daxos has enough regulars to keep disciplined, and the cannons may disturb his tea at the very least. A handful of efficient, disciplined and well-equipped killers that he never sees yet often make him look good would likely please him most.

Heh, I'm not... quite ready to let my commanding officer dictate what I put in my army... yet...

There was a dangerous amount of that with the ogryn, though...

murdog wrote:Man, what a pain it is to be a Guard commander with so many choices about how to slaughter the enemy, eh?!?!

A pain I suffer dearly from. I'm up to 2 bottles of vicodin a day.

... maybe that's not for that, though...

Nenya97 wrote:I don't think adding just 3 bassies would be enough.

There, a man after my own cut! my 1850 upgrade needs to be 4 power blobs and SIX BASSIES!

ARTILLERY!

Nenya97 wrote: All their anti tank (especially in the case of set lists, they will have some anti tank to boot) go right into the bassies and they're gone on your turn 2-3 or at least not shooting the entire game.

Yeah. The thing is, though, these are going to be sort of throwaway units. The only exception to this is the 3x exterminator combo (and to a lesser extent, the ogryn), who are there precisely because I want them to end the game on the field.

I mean, those stormies won't be surviving after they drop either. I'm only expecting ONE turn of use out of them, so 3 turns with the basilisks would be a real blessing.

Nenya97 wrote:The ogryns fit the theme of your army. I recently got an ogryn in a deal from a friend at the flgs and I'm thinkin' of pickin up an ogryn every paycheck now til I get a full unit for a power blob army. They may be expensive as sin but if you are going assaulty, they are your best bet when hidden in a blob for cover then bursting out to blast apart a group of tanks or lowS units.

Actually, I've been using my ogryn for awhile now. They're only expensive as sin if you don't have a lot of free time

Usually, I've been running them the other way around - they go in front of my blobs to give them cover. They are fluffy, very much granted, and when they work, they work very well. The problem is that they're more seriously counterable. In those situations, they work as throwaway units, except they don't do ANY damage before they die, unlike stormies or bassies. I LOVE how they help with field presence, and they do synergize well, but I'm a little concerned about their safety.

Perhaps it's more necessary that I take them now that I won't be outflanking. Unless I can see some slightly more compelling reason, I think they are going to be very temporarily shelved. I say temporarily because they're too cool to leave shelved for very long. Plus, I like how the lord commissar narrates in my battle reports. "N'I'AIN'T GOT TIME FOR NO BELLY ACHIN' AND PANSY-ASS THIS-AND-THAT'N'! I SAID GET IN THERE AND THUG 'EM UP! IFFA PLEESE!!"

Nenya97 wrote:If you really wanna encorporate tanks into your 1500 point army, I'd say just 3 LRs but not exterminators. Something like Demolishers or something with a rear AV11 to back up the assaulting element of your army so your entire army can go forth.

What do you think of demolishers w/lascannons, basically taking them instead of exterminators

I really like demolishers. They're my favorite russ.

The problem is the rest of my list. Demolishers are good against terminators and AV14. With my power blobs I already curb-stomp termies, and with all of the meltaguns and eviscerators, I need more short-ranged anti-AV14 like I need a hole in the head. I played with 3 of them in a recent tournament, and immediately regretted it. They basically did nothing except open up a couple of rhinos before everything else charged in. Meanwhile exterminators also give me my AV14, but are also better against targets that I'd like help with.

Plus, they're expensive. 30 points apiece more expensive. I simply can't afford them at this level.

I think the exterminator instead of the lrbt in the 2 bassy+AV14 option would work just as well (I didn't realize that was the other cheap one, it's throwaway like the russ and more geared toward your target), but I'm not sold on 3x exterminators in any list, tbh. That seems like alot of points for 6 AC's, even twinlinked on av14.

The 2x Bassy+2x Hydra option is a good compromise here. You get 4 vehicles (but no AV14) - two dedicated and two general - plus you still get the priests.

I still think you should mix it up a bit from game to game - the odd game with the stormies and no vehicles would really mess with them, as long as you don't bring only infantry every time. A little sneaky I guess. Also, You said it was escalation: how is the escalation going to go?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:I don't like the idea of parking russes in the backfield (because that's what artillery (or in this case hydras) are for.

But when the BC range is 72", is that not something to park in the backfield? And hydras and exterminators fill the same roll, so why not park extermies too?

So, I just had another idea about this.

What If the first 300 of the 520 I have to spend are sunk into a pair of russes? I'm nearly finished my first exterminator conversion and it looks pretty boss. I'm not the most comfortable in the world with two pieces of AV14, but it makes more sense than my previous 1 exterminator, 2 bassies idea, I think.

Of course, this still leaves me with 120 points, which becomes 2 priests.

Or is this just the silliest idea?

priests are the bomb, great in power weapon combined squads. curious, what made you ditch straken? furious charge seriously makes all the difference (not to mention counter charge). getting in on I4 is incredibly important IMO. with strength 4 you're basically a space marine with a power sword. add a priest and that's just plain wrong. 30 is a good number for combining. once you take some losses you end up with an awesome looking squad with 4 power swords (16 attacks on charge) 3 meltaguns and a priest (if you take him). It just messes stuff up. played about 10 games with it so far/straken combo, yet to fail.

I think the biggest problem with your list as it stands at 1000 points is that it can only take on 7 targets, 3 of which are only getting hit my 3x melta so they will probly be tanks and if they dont have tanks, you are screwed.

I think putting in some missile launcher HWS would be a real good investment now that I am thinking about it

The point of my suggestion is that against my own 1500 point lists that I am toying with, I have real good target saturation for my opponent and youd really have to choose carefully on what you are going to kill cuz those meltagun pcs/ccs are going to be gone in a jiffy to some concentrated fire.

This is why some missile HWS or just adding something like 3 hydras on top of a couple of those HWS might give you a little bit of an edge. Also, those HWS can be a decently cheap bubble wrap for the hydras or manticore?!?

EDIT: might have to steal this list from ya for my own 1500 escalation league to surprise the local guys from my last couple weeks of tanks tanks tanks.

So, I should have noted this before. Taking 2 exterminators and two priests gives me 100 points left to play with.

If I'm willing to make some serious sacrifices from one of my PCSs, I could afford a basilisk or a unit of stormies at this points cost.

For no sacrifice, I could include a pair of lascannon sentinels, or either Marbo or a third priest and some plasma upgrades for my CCS.

What do you think?

optimus-prime-time wrote:Curious, what made you ditch straken?

Lots of little things.

Firstly, the biggest problem was Al'Rahem. Al'Rahem's stuff was almost never in range of the buffs, which really meant I was only ever buffing a couple of squads at the most. Secondly, I needed the astropath to survive until he arrived, which meant I needed to play conservatively with him for the first couple of turns. This meant not only that the rest of my army risked getting out of buff range, but Straken himself would only ever make it into close combat way at the end of the game after it no longer mattered (on account of having a 2 turn late start).

Then there was the buffs itself. Countercharge doesn't work with righteous fury, so it's barely worth it for my power blobs. Furious charge was nice, but it only lasted for a single turn. Power blobs win fights by turn after brutal turn of attrition, and the roughly extra space marine or two straken would give in casualties didn't seem to be all that hugely worth it. He'd be much better if he were buffing something stronger, that I'd only expect to be in close combat for a round or two. Because a single power blob was only likely to get 1 or 2 charges at the most, due to taking so long to finish any one combat, even in perfect situations, this buff wasn't used that much.

As such, I found that taking Straken meant spending 90 points for a space marine sergeant with a power fist. Hardly seemed worth it.

Nenya97 wrote:I think the biggest problem with your list as it stands at 1000 points is that it can only take on 7 targets, 3 of which are only getting hit my 3x melta so they will probly be tanks and if they dont have tanks, you are screwed.

Firstly, you clearly haven't seen an Ailarian multi-charge:




Secondly, yes, I can only engage 7 units at a time, but I destroy everything I engage. Hardly seems like a bad thing to me, especially when I'm not all that likely to see more than 10-15 different units at this points level (and, as mentioned, I can multi-charge).

Nenya97 wrote:I think putting in some missile launcher HWS would be a real good investment now that I am thinking about it

Well, that's one of my options. The problem is that this option is really fragile, and clutters up my DZ. That was much less of a problem with Al'Rahem, but without...

Nenya97 wrote:The point of my suggestion is that against my own 1500 point lists that I am toying with, I have real good target saturation for my opponent and youd really have to choose carefully on what you are going to kill cuz those meltagun pcs/ccs are going to be gone in a jiffy to some concentrated fire.

Interestingly, I very rarely lose my PCSs. You'd think that carrying around 3 meltaguns would make them a bigger target, but people always seem to be so preoccupied with 80 meltagun-meltabomb-power weapon-eviscerator dudes charging them that my PCSs wind up taking little fire. Which is unfortunate, given how little damage they appear to do.

Plus, a PCS is no less durable than a HWS would be.

I posted this in your batrep, but I guess this is a more appropriate place for the question:

Have you ever thought to use Creed to allow another powerblob to outflank, giving you two giant pincers on each side of the board to close in on the enemy? Just curious. The thought of two powerblobs storming each side and crashing on the enemy in the center sounds almost too good to pass up.