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I have heard some things scattered around the interweb that dishearten me. What Satan worked into my heart was the idea that assault marines are not worth their points. Which makes me a sad panda, because I just ordered an army based on them for Christmas. And I think mass linebreaker forces of jump marines is seriously cool. Anyway, this sliver of doubt did make the good point ghat they are, after all, just space marines. And, that because they would be put on the table with the purpose of assault, the points I pay for BS will be a detriment versus a force (orks) whose points are spent primarily on assault virtues - bs2 means more points to spend on ws.
Can anyone dispel this fear? Or is it verified (and the army I just purchased merely for show?)

If you're using the blood angels codex...then yes, horde jump troops can be good. I would suggest mixing in some attack bike squads, I've seen 3 bike squads with 2 mutlimeltas and a heavy bolter work really well.

What you fear as blood angels in CC, is dedicated assault units (assault termies, genestealers) and massed anti-tank fire. Anything S8+ screws your day up really bad. To counter this you need some sort of target for High-S weapons. Attack bikes work well for this, as do dreadnoughts.

Yes, a battle cannon really can put the hurt on the army - but tha's why it's so nice to have the option to DoA deep strike, which is utilized especially against guard, who could blow the entire army off the table first turn. That leaves dedicated cc units. That's why I strived to include the sanguinor in my list, and the only other options after that for me would be to tie them up with vv, or just mass charge after tying up with vv and put enough hurt to make them go away. Or avoiding. Wow. This might end up being a very short thread.


Any mor thoughts on the table? Like, the inefficient point spending?

Horde Armies like orks will be challenging, and mass low ap shots will cause severe casualties. I played my buddies DE with no long range anti-mech, lesson learned. His disintegrator cannons lit my assault squads up.

You just need to tailor your list so that you have a way to deal with anything your opponent throws at you. Now I take Devs with 4 Missile Launchers. 48" range and krak missiles for anti-mech and frags for anti-horde.

You did not make a mistake, Jump Angels are a lot of fun and can win games. If you play horde armies who will drown you in attacks, make them come to you and use BS 4 to your advantage. Shoot them, weaken their numbers, and get the charge.

No problem dude. Go DIY and play blood angel rules. Besides, there's always a demand for JP marines.

Horde orks isnt a big deal if you know how to combine charge them. Stick the bulk of your guys on 1 unit, then hit each other unit with 1 guy if possible. They counter charge and barely get any attacks.

Get 40 assault marines on the charge with furious charge and FNP... Throw them at say 3 units of 30 boyz. They wont get all their attacks. Even worse with unleash rage librarians.

You do like 30+ wounds, you might lose 7 marines in return..e ach unit then suffers another 30 wounds. Game over, thank you no retreat absurdity

What Kirasu said


Because BA can take Melta guns you arn't lacking for Anti-tank options. if you are still worried about assaulting Ork boys(it does take getting used to) you could swap a few melta guns out for Flamers.


Battlecannons and such will get around your FNP, but you can spread out to minimise your damage and Hug cover. if you don't have cover you are probably close enough to assault. if you arn't close enough and don't have cover, you need more terrain.

that or you can DoA in close and Melta gun his tanks.


if i was playing a DoA list i would max out my Assault squads and have at least 3 Jpack Sanguinary Priests. to add some serious CC punch you can add in a squad of Assault Terminators and give them a Sanguinary Priest in TDA. either DS or ride in a LR.

Grey Templar wrote:


if i was playing a DoA list i would max out my Assault squads and have at least 3 Jpack Sanguinary Priests. to add some serious CC punch you can add in a squad of Assault Terminators and give them a Sanguinary Priest in TDA. either DS or ride in a LR.

Or you could just take Mephiston, he's cheaper and works just as well...

prussia59 wrote:I have heard some things scattered around the interweb that dishearten me. What Satan worked into my heart was the idea that assault marines are not worth their points. Which makes me a sad panda, because I just ordered an army based on them for Christmas. And I think mass linebreaker forces of jump marines is seriously cool. Anyway, this sliver of doubt did make the good point ghat they are, after all, just space marines. And, that because they would be put on the table with the purpose of assault, the points I pay for BS will be a detriment versus a force (orks) whose points are spent primarily on assault virtues - bs2 means more points to spend on ws.
Can anyone dispel this fear? Or is it verified (and the army I just purchased merely for show?)

I get what you are trying to say, and unfortunately, you are right. The BS on the assault marines is kind of like wasted - especially when vanilla assault marines can't take melta guns (which would be great for making use of the BS4 to shoot the melta, popping transports, and going in for the assault).

prussia59 wrote:I have heard some things scattered around the interweb that dishearten me. What Satan worked into my heart was the idea that assault marines are not worth their points. Which makes me a sad panda, because I just ordered an army based on them for Christmas. And I think mass linebreaker forces of jump marines is seriously cool. Anyway, this sliver of doubt did make the good point ghat they are, after all, just space marines. And, that because they would be put on the table with the purpose of assault, the points I pay for BS will be a detriment versus a force (orks) whose points are spent primarily on assault virtues - bs2 means more points to spend on ws.
Can anyone dispel this fear? Or is it verified (and the army I just purchased merely for show?)

BS4 is not wasted on ba assault marines because they can carry 2 melta guns for popping transports. FC FNP duel melta assault marines are not the perfect unit, but they are as good as a it gets. Any doubt is just the grass looking greener on the other side of the fence.

Regular SM assault marines are overpriced. BA assault marines, especially with stuff like Sanguinary Priests to support them, are FINE.

Go back and re-read some of your older threads. You got a lot of good advice in there.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/329697.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330353.page

Once you get your models, build them and PLAY SOME GAMES. Don't get obsessive and worry about what people on the internet say.

Assault Marines are great for bullying anything that's not designed to be in combat. They only suck against anything that's purpose built to chew up and spit out WS4 T4 3+ in CC. They also tend to get tied up in protracted combats if your charges don't go so well.

Solution: Don't skimp on the real CC beef in the codex. Mephiston/Sanguinor/Sanguard/Deathcompany/Libby Dreads/Vanguard/Assault Termies.

For Emps sake ignore those people who suggest you take an army of mainly crappy combat ICs like JP libbies, priests, and assault marines. Buffing standard assault Marines with priests is a waste of time. default libbies are horrible in combat and not worth the 'cheap' 125 points. Assault marines on their own are not a CC army.

I don't think BS4 is wasted on assault marines at all. In my last game I had a 10 man squad (2x Melta, 1x Infenus pistol, Combat Shield, PF) deep strike on top of a 5 man Terminator squad. There wasn't much else to do with the Meltas so I thought I might throw them into the Terminators and try to kill a couple. Happily all 3 melta shots hit and wounded (Which was better than I was hoping for). But more importantly... I also managed 5 more hits a 3 more wounds out of my bolter shots. My opponent rolled two 1s for his armour saves, and failed all his invulnerable which meant all 5 Terminators were removed as casualties.

Obviously my opponent was very unlucky to fail 2 armour saves against bolt pistols, and slightly unlucky to not make any of his 5+ invulnerables. But the point is: He wouldn't even have had to take those saves if I was not hitting on 3s. Had I been BS2 hitting a 5 or 6 then I imagine things would have gone very differently; I would have been lucky to even manage 1 melta kill and bolt pistol kills would have been out of the question. Next turn I would have been ripped apart by Storm Bolter fire, Heavy Flamered, and probably assaulted too for good measure. I wouldn't have even bothered trying at BS2.

A couple of games before... the same squad charged down some Banshees and reduced them to almost nothing with shooting, before assault took place. Obviously this is a good thing, as being hit at initiative with power weapons is never a welcome prospect. As it happened, the assault marines rolled over them quite easily in Combat.

Obviously they're not going to get the same out of shooting as a 10x Sternguard squad Rapid Firing Combi-Plasma, but the few shots they do get can have a big impact on their effectiveness during the assault phase. Hitting on 3s allow them to weaken targets that would be too tough for them to assault otherwise, making them much more flexible.

I'm growing more and more fond of the Infernus Pistol too. It gives you fairly reliable wound against MEQs, which I've come to appreciate a lot, and doesn't need to cost you an attack. That's before we even get into what it does to rear armour...

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Assault Marines are great for bullying anything that's not designed to be in combat. They only suck against anything that's purpose built to chew up and spit out WS4 T4 3+ in CC. They also tend to get tied up in protracted combats if your charges don't go so well.

Solution: Don't skimp on the real CC beef in the codex. Mephiston/Sanguinor/Sanguard/Deathcompany/Libby Dreads/Vanguard/Assault Termies.

For Emps sake ignore those people who suggest you take an army of mainly crappy combat ICs like JP libbies, priests, and assault marines. Buffing standard assault Marines with priests is a waste of time. default libbies are horrible in combat and not worth the 'cheap' 125 points. Assault marines on their own are not a CC army.

Ummm no.

Cheap 125 point libbies have a much needed shield of s, and unleash rage buffs an entire unit. They are a force multiplier not a cc monster.

Priests are also a force multiplier. FnP and FC on 20 assault marines makes them a serious threat against any unit.

The sanguinor is a force multiplier that works best when combined with priests and libbies. 20 assault marines could then put out 70 S5 I5 attacks, 35 of which can have rerolls to hit thanks to a libby, +8 powerfist attacks at S9 from the sargs...and that's just the 2 assault marine squads.

schadenfreude wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Assault Marines are great for bullying anything that's not designed to be in combat. They only suck against anything that's purpose built to chew up and spit out WS4 T4 3+ in CC. They also tend to get tied up in protracted combats if your charges don't go so well.

Solution: Don't skimp on the real CC beef in the codex. Mephiston/Sanguinor/Sanguard/Deathcompany/Libby Dreads/Vanguard/Assault Termies.

For Emps sake ignore those people who suggest you take an army of mainly crappy combat ICs like JP libbies, priests, and assault marines. Buffing standard assault Marines with priests is a waste of time. default libbies are horrible in combat and not worth the 'cheap' 125 points. Assault marines on their own are not a CC army.

Ummm no.

Cheap 125 point libbies have a much needed shield of s, and unleash rage buffs an entire unit. They are a force multiplier not a cc monster.

Priests are also a force multiplier. FnP and FC on 20 assault marines makes them a serious threat against any unit.

The sanguinor is a force multiplier that works best when combined with priests and libbies. 20 assault marines could then put out 70 S5 I5 attacks, 35 of which can have rerolls to hit thanks to a libby, +8 powerfist attacks at S9 from the sargs...and that's just the 2 assault marine squads.

Yes

schadenfreude wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Assault Marines are great for bullying anything that's not designed to be in combat. They only suck against anything that's purpose built to chew up and spit out WS4 T4 3+ in CC. They also tend to get tied up in protracted combats if your charges don't go so well.

Solution: Don't skimp on the real CC beef in the codex. Mephiston/Sanguinor/Sanguard/Deathcompany/Libby Dreads/Vanguard/Assault Termies.

For Emps sake ignore those people who suggest you take an army of mainly crappy combat ICs like JP libbies, priests, and assault marines. Buffing standard assault Marines with priests is a waste of time. default libbies are horrible in combat and not worth the 'cheap' 125 points. Assault marines on their own are not a CC army.

Ummm no.

Cheap 125 point libbies have a much needed shield of s, and unleash rage buffs an entire unit. They are a force multiplier not a cc monster.

Priests are also a force multiplier. FnP and FC on 20 assault marines makes them a serious threat against any unit.

The sanguinor is a force multiplier that works best when combined with priests and libbies. 20 assault marines could then put out 70 S5 I5 attacks, 35 of which can have rerolls to hit thanks to a libby, +8 powerfist attacks at S9 from the sargs...and that's just the 2 assault marine squads.

Nah. Libbies with shield are good in a parking lot list. They're not 'much needed' or necessary for Assault Marines. Cover is abundant in this edition and isn't used in combat, don't waste your HQ choice on a 5+ cover save bubble in an assault Marine list.

The Sang is good. Not just because he is a force multiplier, but because he's a tough customer in his own right. You don't need to give mere Assault marines rerolls to hit for 125 points, For 125 points you can buy another 24 Assault Marine attacks outright. Or something better.

If you take the Sang, don't take another meh HQ. points aren't unlimited yeah?

Priests are fun, just don't overdo them.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Assault Marines are great for bullying anything that's not designed to be in combat. They only suck against anything that's purpose built to chew up and spit out WS4 T4 3+ in CC. They also tend to get tied up in protracted combats if your charges don't go so well.

Solution: Don't skimp on the real CC beef in the codex. Mephiston/Sanguinor/Sanguard/Deathcompany/Libby Dreads/Vanguard/Assault Termies.

For Emps sake ignore those people who suggest you take an army of mainly crappy combat ICs like JP libbies, priests, and assault marines. Buffing standard assault Marines with priests is a waste of time. default libbies are horrible in combat and not worth the 'cheap' 125 points. Assault marines on their own are not a CC army.

Ummm no.

Cheap 125 point libbies have a much needed shield of s, and unleash rage buffs an entire unit. They are a force multiplier not a cc monster.

Priests are also a force multiplier. FnP and FC on 20 assault marines makes them a serious threat against any unit.

The sanguinor is a force multiplier that works best when combined with priests and libbies. 20 assault marines could then put out 70 S5 I5 attacks, 35 of which can have rerolls to hit thanks to a libby, +8 powerfist attacks at S9 from the sargs...and that's just the 2 assault marine squads.

Nah. Libbies with shield are good in a parking lot list. They're not 'much needed' or necessary for Assault Marines. Cover is abundant in this edition and isn't used in combat, don't waste your HQ choice on a 5+ cover save bubble in an assault Marine list.

The Sang is good. Not just because he is a force multiplier, but because he's a tough customer in his own right. You don't need to give mere Assault marines rerolls to hit for 125 points, For 125 points you can buy another 24 Assault Marine attacks outright. Or something better.

If you take the Sang, don't take another meh HQ. points aren't unlimited yeah?

Priests are fun, just don't overdo them.

1/6 assault marines die if they jump into cover, and another 1/6 will die if they jump out of cover. Shield is very much needed in an all infantry jump list.

The librarian also gives himself and other IC a reroll to hit, so if he's with a power weapon priest that's 8 power weapon attacks (half of which are at WS5) at S5 I5 that he is buffing along with the assault marines. Unleash rage also works on the unit's power fist which is very useful when attempting to tear down up a walker or wraithguard in CC, something the blessed sergeant is very good at while in the sang's range (5 attacks at S9 hitting on 3's with rerolls to hit) My favorite way to use a librarian is to put him with assault marines until it's time to charge, then detach the librarian and priest to join a sg/hug unit with a +1 attack banner while in range of the sanguinor so that both "crappy IC" are up to 6 attacks at S5 with rerolls to hit + the unit they are with has a lot of power weapons.

If you take the sang you can still spare 125 spare points for the libby. It's all fun and games until you go up against a duel lash list with all infantry and no psychic hood. Eldar and Tyranids are also beastly when attempting to fight them without a psychic hood. 400 points on HQ may seem excessive, but you don't need to spend any points on HS which more than balances out to expensive HQ.

@Prussia59: Here ya go. Enjoy http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=216161

A couple things:

1,000pts or below run 1 Sang Priest
1,000-1,500pts I would run 2 Sang Priests
1,500+ I would do 3

Remember Sang Priests 1-3 only need to take up 1 slot in the FoC

Mephiston can't DoA in even though he has the wings special rules.

Don't run anything on the field. Itll give your opponent something to fire at on your T1 when your waiting for reserves and Deepstrike. It will just get torn up by your entire opponents shooting.

BS4 is not wasted. Every 5 RAS you take you SHOULD be taking a Melta with how armor heavy 5e is. Your Sgt. should be taking a Flamer/Hand Flamer (forgot which one he can take) or a Power Fist. I normally have all my 10 man RAS take 2x Meltas + 1 Sgt PF except 1. I leave one to take Flamer/Flamer/Hand Flamer to scorch up infantry.

Deepstriking Honour Guard with 3-4 Meltas is a great way to take out high AV targets. Remember you only scatter 1d6 so Melta Range is much more achievable.

You should convert 5-10 of your RAS to Vanguard Veterans. They can assault on the charge, can take storm shields to bog down units while you recover from Deepstriking rules of being unable to assault the turn of, can take power weapons/fists, and have some crazy cool stuff you can do with combat squadding a group of 10.

Check out my link up top for more about deepstriking.

Good luck, you'll have fun with it, trust me

Assault Marines are arguably better than ever.
Horde, fast-moving, potentially FNP or FC Space Marines are nasty.
Sanguinor can also add a shed-load of attacks to such an army.

Seriously, the internet says lots of things. The Blood Angels have one of the best all-infantry armies out there and you really shouldn't worry yourself.

If your worried about dedicated CC units, you should try the underrated Sanguinary Guards. For an all jump infantry list, they are very good IMO. They can keep up with the rest of the list, making use of thier speed since they lack invl. save. If you keep them in the FnP bubble of a priest, they hit at initiative 5, str 5, 3 attacks, re-roll one. All powerweapons. I always put in a fist and a banner, for an extra attack.

They get through most things, even horde armies since you tend to slice through them and the fearless wounds add up.

Of course there are other dedicated CC units you can pick, but comparing them to say, VV? Sanguard outperfom throughout the game. Also jump infantry for BA are great since they are fast and have the option to have FnP which makes them very resiliant.