Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have a 2500 WHFB tourney coming up and I"m trying to decide between these uses of roughly 600 points. I'm set on the rest of the army (which is mostly bloodletters, flamers and some heralds).


Keeper of Secrets, Lvl 2, Spirit Swallower
Lord of Change, Lvl 4, Irisdescent Corona, Master of Sorcery (life), Power Vortex
Keeper of Secrets, Lvl 4, Soul Hunger, Siren Song
Bloodthirster, Dark Insanity, Immortal Fury, Armor of Khorne
40 Horrors, Full Command, icon of sorcery


I like the power of the Greater daemon and I feel like the lists are underpowered when only using the 600 points of heroes. On the other hand, I feel like using those points on horrors (which otherwise would not be on the list) makes the list much more resilient overall.

The other issue is that I feel the two non-level 4 choices are also more resilient but then I lack access to a level 4 mage in the list (Tz heralds are only level 2).

Thoughts?

Personally, I like my Bloodthirster as: Collar of Khorne, Obsidian Armor, Immortal Fury. I don't feel that he needs any more attacks, and most things that can legitimately threatening him in HtH are using magic weapons to do so.

Assuming one of your Heralds is a Herald of Tzeentch w/Loremaster of something useful (I like Life, myself), then the Horrors are almost certainly the most resilient and effective option.

I used Life on the Herald because it is the best lore, for sure... but I found it slightly harder to get his spells off because he only gets +2. I was thinking of trying Shadow because the signature spell is nice, but cheap and you still have a couple of high end spells to throw 5-6 dice at.

Killjoy00 wrote:I used Life on the Herald because it is the best lore, for sure... but I found it slightly harder to get his spells off because he only gets +2. I was thinking of trying Shadow because the signature spell is nice, but cheap and you still have a couple of high end spells to throw 5-6 dice at.

Yes, the level 2 limitation can be a little rough. I find it fairly effective, though, as my opponents quickly learn to fear the 4 direct-damage spells coming out of the Horror block...at +5! After a round of flaming machine-gun spells, they start worrying more about those, and less about the odd Life spell that goes through.

Aside from targets that are almost immune to Fire, you aren't going to be using the Herald as a damage-dealer very often.

Right, but even the support spells in life become relatively pricey. Flesh to stone and Throne of vines aren't no brainers on two dice (28% failure). Earthblood is useless to DoC. That leaves Regrowth, which is going to need 4 dice. So your support spells aren't as good.

Compare to Shadows, where miasma can be cast on one dice and 3 dice for enfeebling foe is going to be roughly as good as 3 dice on flesh to stone.

If I may say my opinion, as a devotee of Tzeentch when it comes to DoC, I don't like life on my Lord of Change. I prefer it on my herald.

My Lord is usually flying to enemy flanks to try to get off those lovely direct damage Tzeentch spells. Then when the enemy get close the 5+ cast horrors get to work.

Instead of MoS, I prefer the scroll. But that is just me. Good luck on your tournament!

I have been heavily contenplating dropping the greater daemon from my lists entirely, its starting to become a huge liability.

With the increased accuracy of war machines and what not, against armies like empire and dwarves they very very rarely make their points back. And with how powerfull magic is now its way more dangerous then 8th edition.

However I do agree on not taking lore of life on the LoC, daemonic lore of tzeencht is so amazing already.

I'm curious as to why Kairos isn't on that list. From what I've seen of him in 8th he is really good. He can cast the Lore of Tzeentch and 8 other spells, with plus two to cast. Through in the 3+ ward makes him safe(r) from cannons, and thunder stomp prevents him from being tied up in weak combats, I don't see a good reason not to run him at 2500+.

arinnoor wrote:I don't see a good reason not to run him at 2500+.

To avoid turning into this guy.

Hey, if there will be Teclis there why not bring your big old two head chicken? Plus Kairos isn't as bad as he once was. From what me and my group have seen from playing him the bird is really powerful, but at the same time eats all the dice he can and if he fails a spell (stops casting) it is really bad for him. As oppossed to my grey seer who if he fails I don't care, his miscast usually do more damage then he does.

Our local lizard player has fun with Kairos using that silly disipline or whatever to get rid of 6s, O&G guy did it to with his spells. The bird isn't unbeatable, but he is really good. Way more so then a LoC who will be similar points.

No special characters at this tournament.

Ah that is a good reason. I would suggest not running a greater unless you think you can do it. The are all fragile to cannons, provided enough of them, and some spells can devastate them. However, you can get through most of those if correct placement and some average dice rolls. IMO, I'd go with the Horrors, as Lore of Tzeentch is awesome.

I know the Keeper my friend used to run is quite different then the ones you put up. Is the one with torment blade, the other ability the forces a LD test to attack, song, and Lvl2/4 not good anymore?

Great Unclean One, level 4, slime trail.
5+ ward and 10 wounds is REALLY good. He'll bunker all game long, and if you do have that level 2 with lore of life, healing away.

Lore of Nurgle is outstanding.

You ever see what happens when 50 skaven slaves get hit with a plague wind? The only problem with this spell is how many nurgling bases you'll need to paint up.
IMO, it's the single best chaos spell for taking out hordes; it kills as many as dwellers, is much easier to cast, and creates nurgles too.

-Matt

Sadly, I don't have any nurgle models either sadly. I have everything for the other gods, but not nurgle.

I'm now torn b/w the level 4 Slaanesh GD and the horrors.

Killjoy00 wrote:Sadly, I don't have any nurgle models either sadly. I have everything for the other gods, but not nurgle.

I'm now torn b/w the level 4 Slaanesh GD and the horrors.

That one's easy. Take the horrors. It's a lot more survivable, and you get plenty of chop in with bloodletters. Also, 5 wide 8 deep horrors will do a great job at breaking steadfast for your other units.

If you haven't tried it before, give the Standard of Change a try. Once in combat, horrors aren't casting much (just gift of chaos). Having another spell to help get them out of combat can make the difference. 3D6 S3 hits is decent.

-Matt

I had much luck w/my 'thirster in the 'ard boyz. He was equipped w/flamming weapon, fury, and obsidian armor. I only lost him once in 9 games of the 'ard boyz (the one game I lost).

Khorne53 wrote:I had much luck w/my 'thirster in the 'ard boyz. He was equipped w/flamming weapon, fury, and obsidian armor. I only lost him once in 9 games of the 'ard boyz (the one game I lost).

Was that a 7th or 8th edition 'ard boyz?
In bigger games, I tend to run a WS10 2+ ward vs flaming, -1 to be hit character, just to deal with large flying monsters.

Common magic items really have toned down bloodthirsters.

-Matt

It was 8th. I did run into the 2+ ward v flamming. That was a pain, but it doesn't help against Thunderstomp. Same w/the -1 to hit.

I could live w/the 2+ v flamming b/c I needed an answer for the the HPA's and Hydras.

A simple horse however does help against stomping

I am not running a lord in any of my daemon lists either at this time, I don't feel as if they are viable at all at least at 2.5k. I think maybe a 3k, I may bring out fateweaver for ard boyz, or a level 4 GUO.

arinnoor wrote:I'm curious as to why Kairos isn't on that list. From what I've seen of him in 8th he is really good. He can cast the Lore of Tzeentch and 8 other spells, with plus two to cast. Through in the 3+ ward makes him safe(r) from cannons, and thunder stomp prevents him from being tied up in weak combats, I don't see a good reason not to run him at 2500+.

Looks like i am a little late on this... but the reason people wouldn't take him (from what I have read) is that he dies from Pit of Shades, Purple sun, and dwellers below (a little bit) Mostly the first 2 take him out and the first two are very common. Though it is versatile... I guess... if you like dying...

And final transmutation (baout as much as dwellers), as well as some lucky cannonball that goes trough his ward.