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So I'm thinking of fielding Al Rahem and since I can't get to my rulebook for the next few days I had a question for yall. Now Al Rahem's platoon must outflank but here is my question.

Do you roll for the whole platoon at once or do you roll per unit in said platoon? I.E. Roll for the PCS, SWS, and IS individually thus causing them to come on different turns and different sides of the board?

Thanks guys

IIRC platoons are rolled collectively for reserves. I dont know if that applies to what edge they come from though.

kenshin620 wrote:IIRC platoons are rolled collectively for reserves. I dont know if that applies to what edge they come from though.

The way that I understand it (and have discussed with other people that field Al'Rahem) is that he is governed by all the rules of Reserves. The way that outflankers come onto the board is a part of the reserves rules, and thus, they are rolled for collectively when rolling "for reserves". Not only does this encompass when they come on, but what board edge they come on as well.

So, in short, they should all come on the same board edge.

Reserves: rolled for collectively page 96 of the guard codex, under Composition.

Table Side: rolled for individually(outflank rules). There is nothing in Al Rahem's rule that supersedes nor changes the basic outflank rules. Also the FAQ says nothing about it.

IMO, KK has the correct answer. The Platoon rule only affects the Reserves roll, nothing is said or even implied as to it affecting the rolls for Outflank sides.

don_mondo wrote:IMO, KK has the correct answer. The Platoon rule only affects the Reserves roll, nothing is said or even implied as to it affecting the rolls for Outflank sides.

True, but where are the rules for rolling Outflank located? Under Reserves. The "reserves" part of the wording in the platoon rule does not simply say, "Reserves, but only for coming in." It simply says "rolled for collectively when rolling for Reserves."

The rules for outflank are under(oddly enough) outflank.

After you have determined which units are available, you then deploy them 1 at a time; when you are rolling for a block of units with 1 roll, you still deploy those units 1 at a time. The outflank rules are very clear and specific(you are aware of the "golden rule" about Specific rules, right?): each unit rolls for arriving edge when it arrives from reserve.

In the event that you held A Platoon command squad and 2 PIS squads in reserve and you held 2 separate unit Scout Sentinels, and a squadron of 2 Vendettas in reserve, and they all became available in the same turn; It is perfectly legal to deploy those units as follows: Roll in in the first PIS squad, Outflank the first sentinel, Outflank the vendettas, roll in the second PIS squad, outflank the second sentinel, roll in the PCS.

You are only Rolling for Platoons collectively, you are not deploying them as such.

Kommissar Kel wrote:The rules for outflank are under(oddly enough) outflank.

Which is under which bold, larger font heading?


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Kommissar Kel wrote:
You are only Rolling for Platoons collectively, you are not deploying them as such.

True, but you make a roll, which is described under the Outflank rule, which is a subset of the Reserve rules. It simply says, "Is rolled for collectively when rolling for Reserves." That says to me, whatever rolls govern Reserves, they are rolled collectively for them. Since there is no other caveat in that statement, they are rolled for collectively in rolls concerning Reserves. Outflanking being a subset of Reserves, it is rolled for collectively, imo.

I don't have enough stake in the argument to actually continue the debate (I don't even play IG), so I'll just agree to disagree here and allow my opponents to collectively bring Al'Rahem on with his platoon.

puma713 wrote: It simply says, "Is rolled for collectively when rolling for Reserves." That says to me, whatever rolls govern Reserves, they are rolled collectively for them.

I don't see how this is so confusing. When it comes to rolling dice with regards to reserves, infantry platoons are treated as a single unit.

If you wanted to nit-pick. You would roll a single die for when the infantry platoon arrived, and then you pick the PCS and roll for which side they come in on, and then your PISs choose to use the same die roll as the PCS, because the single roll applies collectively to all of them.

Think about this for space marines and combat squadding. If a space marine squad wanted to outflank, and it wanted to combat squad, would they be able to split the squad and then roll for which part came in seperately, or which side of the board they came in from seperately?

P96 IG: .. and is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves

P94, BRB: Reserves, subsection Rolling for Reserves: .. the player must roll a dice for each of his units in reserve. Depending on the turn in question, a certain result will mean that the unit has arrived
...
Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks up any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later

P94, BRB: Reserves, subsection Outflank: When an outflanking unit arrives from reserve the controlling player rolls a dice:

So:
1) Roll for all of your reserves. It they are an infantry platoon, they roll as one.
1a) If the unit was outflanked and the roll was successful this turn, immediately roll for outflank before rolling the next unit.

Rules say that you must roll for outflank 'as soon as the unit arrives from reserve'. Reserve rules say a unit 'arrives' as soon as you roll higher than the required amount.

Because the Outflank rules are based on 'arriving', they are a subset of the reserve roll. If they said, 'before moving onto the board' that would be something different.

pretre posted the relevant rules, but I disagree with his conclusion.

Roll for reserves, yes, one die roll for the entire platoon. After that however, the IG codex rules have no further affect. You've made your reserve roll. That rule from page 96, IG codex is applied and done and over with. It no longer applies to any of the other steps in bringing the platoon units onto the table.

So now you look at the rules for placing the units and the outflank rules. Both of those now tell us to handle it on a unit by unit basis, one unit at a time. The ONLY thing that the IG rule modifies is the roll for whether or not the platoon arrives this turn. That's it. It doesn't apply to anything else.

Oh, and you don't roll for any of the outflank sides until after you've rolled for all your reserves.................. Again, you even posted the relevant rule
"Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks up any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later "

The real question here is "what does 'roll for reserves' mean?"

If you choose to interpret rolling for reserves as ONLY the die roll to see if a unit can be deployed from reserves, then yes, the outflanking rolls would be seperate.

If you choose to interpret rolling for reserves as ANY die roll you make when determining how a unit is deployed from reserves, then clearly the guard codex rule makes the roll for outflanking collective as well.

Honestly, I fail see why the former is the better interpretation. It seems like little more than fabricating unnecessary nitpicking to manufacture a rules conflict.

Interpreting a roll as a "roll for reserve" as any roll for a rule which appears in the reserves section of the rulebook is the simplest and most straightforward way to understand this.

Ailaros wrote:The real question here is "what does 'roll for reserves' mean?"

If you choose to interpret rolling for reserves as ONLY the die roll to see if a unit can be deployed from reserves, then yes, the outflanking rolls would be seperate.

If you choose to interpret rolling for reserves as ANY die roll you make when determining how a unit is deployed from reserves, then clearly the guard codex rule makes the roll for outflanking collective as well.

Honestly, I fail see why the former is the better interpretation. It seems like little more than fabricating unnecessary nitpicking to manufacture a rules conflict.

Interpreting a roll as a "roll for reserve" as any roll for a rule which appears in the reserves section of the rulebook is the simplest and most straightforward way to understand this.

So it applies to deep strike rolls as well? One scatter for all the units? Yes, I know I can't deep strike my IG any more, but hopefully you understand the point I'm trying to make. The rolls are separate. And the IG codex only says it affects one of them.

Actually, how about this. Does the Astropath +1 affect scatter distance for deepstriking IG? It does by your interpretation that ANY die roll is affected.

don_mondo wrote:
So it applies to deep strike rolls as well? One scatter for all the units? Yes, I know I can't deep strike my IG any more, but hopefully you understand the point I'm trying to make. The rolls are separate. And the IG codex only says it affects one of them.

Actually, how about this. Does the Astropath +1 affect scatter distance for deepstriking IG? It does by your interpretation that ANY die roll is affected.

Nope, check the book. Deep Strike is a different section on the next page.

'P95: Deep Strike. First Para: Roll for arrival of these units as specified in the rules for reserves and then deploy them as follows.'

See the clear difference in language from the other quotes? It tells you to go roll for your reserves (which you do all at once on P94) and then when it is time to deploy to deploy them in X fashion. It even separates itself from the 'rules for reserves'. Note that the outflank quotes do not do that.

And again, Platoons can't deep strike anyways.

So no, deep strike is different.

don_mondo wrote:

So it applies to deep strike rolls as well? One scatter for all the units? Yes, I know I can't deep strike my IG any more, but hopefully you understand the point I'm trying to make. The rolls are separate. And the IG codex only says it affects one of them.

Does the whole army roll collectively? No, just infantry platoons. You're unnecessarily complicating the issue.

Ailaros wrote:
Interpreting a roll as a "roll for reserve" as any roll for a rule which appears in the reserves section of the rulebook is the simplest and most straightforward way to understand this.

I agree. Look at the rulebook. The 'reserve' section is all of page 94, except the part that says 'Mission Special Rules' at the top. It includes:
Preparing Reserves
Rolling for Reserves
Arriving from Reserve
Outflank

Deep Strike (and Night Fighting) are on the next page and separated by typographic changes (font headings, etc).

don_mondo wrote:

Ailaros wrote:The real question here is "what does 'roll for reserves' mean?"

If you choose to interpret rolling for reserves as ONLY the die roll to see if a unit can be deployed from reserves, then yes, the outflanking rolls would be seperate.

If you choose to interpret rolling for reserves as ANY die roll you make when determining how a unit is deployed from reserves, then clearly the guard codex rule makes the roll for outflanking collective as well.

Honestly, I fail see why the former is the better interpretation. It seems like little more than fabricating unnecessary nitpicking to manufacture a rules conflict.

Interpreting a roll as a "roll for reserve" as any roll for a rule which appears in the reserves section of the rulebook is the simplest and most straightforward way to understand this.

So it applies to deep strike rolls as well? One scatter for all the units? Yes, I know I can't deep strike my IG any more, but hopefully you understand the point I'm trying to make. The rolls are separate. And the IG codex only says it affects one of them.

Actually, how about this. Does the Astropath +1 affect scatter distance for deepstriking IG? It does by your interpretation that ANY die roll is affected.

To further your point, then an Astropath would allow a player to add+1 to their Outflank roll as well. Thereby increasing the chances they get to pick which side they come on. Not to mention that model allows them to re-roll their Outflank roll as well.

So basically, I do not see it working that way. Roll for the platoon to arrive from reserve as 1 unit per IG rules. Then each unit in said platoon rolls seperate for Outflank purposes.

But hey, if my opponent really wants to allow me to re roll which side I come from and add +1 to said rolls I wont stop them.

Marius Xerxes wrote:
To further your point, then an Astropath would allow a player to add+1 to their Outflank roll as well. Thereby increasing the chances they get to pick which side they come on. Not to mention that model allows them to re-roll their Outflank roll as well.

You know, I'll buy that one. I do not think that is RAI, but neither do I think having a platoon arrive scattered between two board edges is.

No, Ailaros is saying that anything that affects Reserves rolls affects ALL rolls associated with that unit's arrival.

"If you choose to interpret rolling for reserves as ANY die roll you make when determining how a unit is deployed from reserves"

A deep striking unit (say my Storm Troopers) is arriving from reserves via deep strike and I have an Astropath. By Ailaros' interpretation, the +1 applies to any and all rolls made when determining how a unit is deployed from reserves. His interpretation, not mine. I'm merely pointing out the (IMO) silliness of such a blanket statement.

My opinion. The Astropath (and the IG Platoon rule) apply only to the roll to see if they show up on that particular turn or not. All other rolls are separate rolls and are not affected unless specifically mentioned, ie the Astropath's ability to allow you to reroll which side you bring them in on.

don_mondo wrote:No, Ailaros is saying that anything that affects Reserves rolls affects ALL rolls associated with that unit's arrival.

"If you choose to interpret rolling for reserves as ANY die roll you make when determining how a unit is deployed from reserves"

A deep striking unit (say my Storm Troopers) is arriving from reserves via deep strike and I have an Astropath. By Ailaros' interpretation, the +1 applies to any and all rolls made when determining how a unit is deployed from reserves. His interpretation, not mine. I'm merely pointing out the (IMO) silliness of such a blanket statement.

My opinion. The Astropath (and the IG Platoon rule) apply only to the roll to see if they show up on that particular turn or not. All other rolls are separate rolls and are not affected unless specifically mentioned, ie the Astropath's ability to allow you to reroll which side you bring them in on.

Right, my response was clarifying his point as you were taking it too literally.

'Rolling for Reserves' IE Rolls you make that are part of the reserve phase. I.e. Pg 94. Go look at the book, the differences between the Reserve and Deep Strike section are quite clear. Outflank is in the Reserve section.

don_mondo wrote:My opinion. The Astropath (and the IG Platoon rule) apply only to the roll to see if they show up on that particular turn or not. All other rolls are separate rolls and are not affected unless specifically mentioned, ie the Astropath's ability to allow you to reroll which side you bring them in on.

I agree with you.

Otherwise Tyranid players would start saying that with this line of thinking they could take an Hive Tyrant, The Swarmlord and a Lictor/Deathleaper and add up to +3 to their roll to see what edge they come from when they Outflank. People really think that is how its supposed to work? 2+ to come from any board edge of their choice?

Not that how people play is an indication of what is right 100% of the time, but I have never ever had a player try and say that's how the rule works.

Whatever. You're obviously not getting the point.

Marius Xerxes wrote:
I agree with you.

Otherwise Tyranid players would start saying that with this line of thinking they could take an Hive Tyrant, The Swarmlord and a Lictor/Deathleaper and add up to +3 to their roll to see what edge they come from when they Outflank. People really think that is how its supposed to work? 2+ to come from any board edge of their choice?

Not that how people play is an indication of what is right 100% of the time, but I have never ever had a player try and say that's how the rule works.

No, we don't think that that is 'How it is supposed to work' i.e. RAI.

Just as we don't think that a platoon is supposed to be split between edges. But 'how it is supposed to work' is not what we are debating. We are debating RAW.


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don_mondo wrote:Whatever. You're obviously not getting the point.

Seriously. Did you get out your book and look?

I'm talking about typeface and sections.

Ignore the rest and just look at that.

Is Deep Strike a subsection of Reserves or of Mission Special Rules?


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Amusingly enough, INAT covers the reserves question but not the outflank question.


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By the way, this is obviously not new to Dakka:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/305529.page
Group decided that it was one roll. (Not that they were right or wrong, but context.)

pretre wrote:Just as we don't think that a platoon is supposed to be split between edges. But 'how it is supposed to work' is not what we are debating. We are debating RAW.

I know what is being debated. I spend a good deal of time debating rules.

I am simply saying I do not see it as RAW.

RAW to me Outflank is a manor in which you put your models on the board once arriving from Reserves is satisfied.

EDIT: If the issues is hot enough, I might be able to have it brought up in the next INAT session.

Ooh, thanks for pointing out that I also get a +1 to determine which side I outflank from when taking an astropath. Good catch.

I think that the problem here is that there IS no RAW. RAW is when there is a clearly defined rule that runs counter to common sense (for example, hitting ICs in a squad with a blast weapon and not needing to assign a wound to the IC).

What we have here is an unclearly written rule. What we're talking about here is what GW intended when it said "roll for reserves". This is a linguistic argument, not a rules argument.

If we're going to read into what GW intended to mean when it used the words it used, then we're in the RAI world. I can't think of a single argument RAI for why Al'Rahem should get split up, while I can think of several for why they should stay together.

Really, we're down to two options - RAW states that they come in together, or there is no RAW, and any claims that there is one is an attempt to fabricate a discrepancy where none exists, and the RAI states they come in together.

Because seriously, the master of maneuvers is going to send his troops to attack the right flank while he takes a "super secret shortcut" to the right flank which just ends up with him getting lost?

Ailaros wrote: the RAI states they come in together.

My RAI says that when you encircle someone, you come from mutiple sides at once.

So no, RAI is no more clear in them coming on together or not.

Devils advocate, of course.

Only the author of the codex can state what is and is not RAI. And even there, it can be changed by other members of the studio later on. Seriously, it's happened. Author of the Ork codex told me that Deffrollas could NOT be used to Ram. Year or two later, we get an FAQ saying otherwise. So what's the RAI on taht one? So how about we quit trying to argue the RAI?

Got another item to add, based on the opinion that reserves modifers affect outflank rolls. Autarchs. Think about it, now you're arguing that Eldar with 2 Autarchs pretty much get to choose their outflank side.

I'll stick to my opinion that the only roll affected by the IG Platoon rule is the one that determines whether or not the Platoon shows up, and has no affect on where they show up. And yes, I am primarily an IG player..............

don_mondo wrote:Got another item to add, based on the opinion that reserves modifers affect outflank rolls. Autarchs. Think about it, now you're arguing that Eldar with 2 Autarchs pretty much get to choose their outflank side.

Expanding on this: the Astropath and Autarch(or 2) would increase Deepstrike scatter by 1(or 2); and the officer of the fleet would suddenly decrease deepstrike scatter rolls by 1.

All reserve rolls means all rolls to see if reserved units are available; not all rolls concerning reserves.

This is again why we think that RAI is that outflank is just for the platoon and RAW is unclear/silly.

Not going to keep arguing the point. :(

@Marius

I'd generally play it as they all come in together on a single roll. Which is slightly disadventageous for me since hitting both sides at once with specialized units is way better. I'd play it this way because I generally play the rule as the least beneficial to me when I don't know the answer people will take.

Could you bring it up for the INAT? As I am attending Adepticon and would like a ruling one way or the other.

Oh, and I'll happily take the each "unit" rolls seperately for side. Make Al Rahem almost a must take in some cases