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Hi all

I am about to meet an ork waaaagh for the first time
Things i should definetly know??
and some help with the army list is also welcome.. (will post one in the armylist section)
things I thought that are important:

kill the war boss (snpers? lascannon?)
DON'T go voluntarly in close combat
leave devestator squads at home
bring much much firepower to the table (i guess?)
rihno transports for all squads
bring a land raider yes/no?


and some tactic tips are welcome

If you have the chance, charge them, don't let them charge you. It deprives them of their +1 Strength, and their Attack bonus.

And yes, firepower is nice, as is a Thunderfire Cannon!

heavey bolter and assault cannon is walso welcome i suppose??

Joske De Veteraan wrote:heavey bolter and assault cannon is walso welcome i suppose??

I'd definitely go for those... or maybe a plasma cannon and missile launchers might be good too for template kills... and there is also the Vindicator with its nice big template.

Joske De Veteraan wrote:heavey bolter and assault cannon is walso welcome i suppose??

No, heavy bolters and assault cannons suck against orks. While in theory they are good against hordes, they are in fact terrible. One you factor in misses, failed to wound, and cover, you are lucky to even get a single 6 point model dead from each gun. Considering how many points you paid for the honor of killing such a low number of really bad models you will be quickly overwhelmed by said models... Then quantity has a quality of its own.

Take template weapons. MLs and Flame throwers. Devastators with 4x ML are a great value, as are HF/MM speeders (MM to take out battle wagons cheaply). Bolter fire is also effective, but only as a mop up weapon. Reduce each squad to below 11 models, and force morale tests on them (tank shock reduced squads).

Plasma cannons are over kill (too expensive for how much better they are), though vindicators can be good, but they are almost over kill as well. Don't take thunderfire cannons, they follow the artillery rules, and lootas will kill it turn 1 (assuming ork player knows targeting priority). Assault terminators with TH/SS are useful if you face against nob squads because it ignores armor, instant kills, and can take the PK punishment (well, you are going to get hurt... but termies are cheaper than nobs). If you take assault termies take a crusader or redeemer, they both have their pluses. Crusader you can stand off a bit more, but redeemer is more effective for when it gets stuck in.

So basically a list that can handle AV 14 (battle wagons) and that can put a large number of wounds on T4 models (all orks) and can instant death T4 models in CC.

I have found that single 5-man tactical squad in rhino can kill 20 boyz quite easily... With flamer and combi-flamer driving in rhino towards them and flaming the hell out of them, and then after rhino drops dead disembark, flame/pistols and assault... Does wonders...
But problem is that there are much more units... Not much you can do... Dakka dakka dakka

Vindicators, HF on landspeeders and so on... Plus lots of orks die due to explosion on killing vehicles... You just have to pray it will do

Speaking as an Ork player... I don't like flame templates.

I can tell you from experience dont let them charge you.

If it isn't KP, a thing I like to do is if I see a horde coming that will assault me before I can assault them, hop in a Rhino.

It makes them waste their assault on the rhino, my marines get out and flame the crap out of the orks, then charge.

I took out 23 out of 30 boyz by doing this.

However, in Kill point games, I would not suggest just giving up the point from killing those rhinos.

notabot187 wrote:

Joske De Veteraan wrote:heavey bolter and assault cannon is walso welcome i suppose??

No, heavy bolters and assault cannons suck against orks. While in theory they are good against hordes, they are in fact terrible. One you factor in misses, failed to wound, and cover, you are lucky to even get a single 6 point model dead from each gun. Considering how many points you paid for the honor of killing such a low number of really bad models you will be quickly overwhelmed by said models... Then quantity has a quality of its own.

Take template weapons. MLs and Flame throwers. Devastators with 4x ML are a great value, as are HF/MM speeders (MM to take out battle wagons cheaply). Bolter fire is also effective, but only as a mop up weapon. Reduce each squad to below 11 models, and force morale tests on them (tank shock reduced squads).

Plasma cannons are over kill (too expensive for how much better they are), though vindicators can be good, but they are almost over kill as well. Don't take thunderfire cannons, they follow the artillery rules, and lootas will kill it turn 1 (assuming ork player knows targeting priority). Assault terminators with TH/SS are useful if you face against nob squads because it ignores armor, instant kills, and can take the PK punishment (well, you are going to get hurt... but termies are cheaper than nobs). If you take assault termies take a crusader or redeemer, they both have their pluses. Crusader you can stand off a bit more, but redeemer is more effective for when it gets stuck in.

So basically a list that can handle AV 14 (battle wagons) and that can put a large number of wounds on T4 models (all orks) and can instant death T4 models in CC.

While I do agree with you on the templates, I totally disagree with you on the heavy bolter being bad. I play against a SM player that uses a dev squad with 4 heavy bolters, and I can tell you from having it happen ALOT, that heavy bolters can kick Orks asses. Now taking 1 or 2 I can see your point, but if you take a bunch of heavy bolters, youll be dropping Orks like no bodies business.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yea, dont let them get the charge, even if you charge with just tacticals you will be taking a serious advantage away from the Ork players

Speaking as a mech ork player land raider spam is always a pain since orks struggle with AV14 and can only really kill it up close so if you keep your LRs moving they become a right pain in the ass to deal with needing a warboss with klaw or deffrolla ram to crack em open.

Taking HB spam units is an a heavy cost for space marine players. Takes up a slot, and isn't cheap. HB dev squad costs vanilla marines 150 points, which is the same as a ML squad. Why take an inferior weapon when you can have the duel purpose ML? And the small blast is often better than the HB against big blobs or bunched up infantry.

The only HB that you see in most competitive lists these days is on predators and land speeder typhoons, the reason is they cost too much compared to what you could be taking. The base cost of any marine unit is usually pretty high, so why take a sub par gun?

But I love the sight of a heavy bolter

so templates are good (would never found that out on my own..)
5 termies w HF an TH/SS + chaplain in terminator armour..

LR: wich one?? w Flamstromcannons (templates) or hurricanes.. (lots and lots of firepower.. they beatthe gak out of the necron player last time..)

But wich unit's from orks are definetly worth killing like bosses or the heavyer infantry "nobs" i guess?? and their vehicles as well?? definetly shoot the trukks i suppose..

I like crusader... Redeemer is too poor imo, as you can move 12'' and fire only 1 flamer, and ystill can fire only flamers on 6'' and rarely on same target.... Crusader gives nice anti-infantry and with MM on it it can pop a tank or two... Just love him...

As for targets, well it depends... It is actually simple... You have this order of killing:

1. Very dangerous and very fragile
2. Very dangerous and tough
3. Not so dangerous and fragile
4. Not so dangerous and tough

It sound s simple, but that is whole logic against every army...

If he has Thraka and transports then the whole army will have a 28 inch assault range on T2.

IF he is running a MEQ ork army, then the first thing you want to try to drop is the Big Meks battlewagon (if he is using it)
If you do this he is deprived of a 4+ cover save on most of his vehicles.

What's Thraka??

are there special tactics i can use against orks?? like the hammer and anvil tactic that is if it's doen properly really effective on T'au and Necrons..

I work a lot with terminator squads in regular games but they are not cheap andI thought i need to try make a mass of units like orks.. that not really outnumber me with 3:1

they arn't verry good at tankhunting i suppose? so a rihno rush for the objectives is a good idea?

Crusader with MM ok he's on the list..

Joske De Veteraan wrote:What's Thraka??

are there special tactics i can use against orks?? like the hammer and anvil tactic that is if it's doen properly really effective on T'au and Necrons..

I work a lot with terminator squads in regular games but they are not cheap andI thought i need to try make a mass of units like orks.. that not really outnumber me with 3:1

they arn't verry good at tankhunting i suppose? so a rihno rush for the objectives is a good idea?

Crusader with MM ok he's on the list..

Thrakka is the main special character of orks, not only is he one of the only 200+ point special characters who is worth it, he is an absolute beast in CC and gives his army an automatic 6" fleet movement during his WAAAARGH (and he goes to 2++ during that full game turn).

What works against orks usually is a refused flank, since there is usually too many to deal with all at once. Orks are normally too numerous to use hammer and anvil, as they can actually swamp most anvils, and most hammers can't deal with the volume they will need.

Orks only have problems with heavy armor, light armor is no problem due to lootas (15 point d3 shot autocannons that can be taken in units of 15...)

i see..

Orks have big problems against mobile forces too... SM unfortunately isn't mobile enough... Also, those armies that can be reserved are also good...

What you want to do is fight orks part by part.... You don't want entire ork army rushing towards you... That is why if you manage to make him spread his forces, you will usually win...

As a fairly experienced and seasoned Space Marine player, here's my advice on playing against Orks.

1. Stay away from CC: Avoid them charging you for as long as possible, and if you have to go into CC, take the initiative and charge them instead.

2. Template and Blast weapons are your best friends: Flamers of any sort are the most effective against them. ML's are your best Heavy Weapon choice, followed closely by Heavy Bolters. Leave your Melta weapons at home. Most Ork Vehicles have weak armor and are open topped, so the chances of popping Ork vehicles are pretty good. Plasma weapons are decent if you're going up against MegaNobz, otherwise, like others have said, are overpriced/kill.

3. Bring Lots of Armor: Rhinos and Razorbacks will help protect your Infantry, and allow you to shoot them from a distance until they get close enough for your Flamers. Land Raiders are great as well, since they have no regular Shooting Weapon that's higher than Str 8. I personally like Redeemers over Crusaders, and there's one simple reason why. If your Land Raider isn't moving it's maximum distance each turn, then you're not earning the points on it fast enough. I know this contradicts the "gunline theory" of fighting an Ork army, but if your Terminators (or whatever passengers you're carrying) are sitting in a Land Raider for more than 1 turn without seeing some sort of combat, then you're wasting points. And if you're that worried about your Land Raider only getting to shoot once on the first turn, then rest assured that from the second turn on, you're likely to get to shoot at least 2, if not all of your weapons. More often than not, if you move your max distance on Turn 1, you're likely to be close enough so that you won't have to move more than 6" to get within Template Range of your enemy. Plus, your Terminators should be in the middle of CC by then.

4. Best Elite Choices: Assault Terminators and Sternguard Veterans are your best choices to bring. Both LC and TH/SS Terminators work well, depending on your opponent's list. I find LC Terminators with a Chaplain to be a little more effective, allowing you to reroll failed To Hit rolls (on a charge) and rerolling to wound (all the time). Even against MegaNobz, 56% of your attacks will wound them, so odds are your Terminators will get their points worth. Granted, TH/SS are more effective against MegaNobz, but the LC's will wipe out most other Ork squads more efficiently. Sternguard Veterans with Combi-Flamers are A-MAZING. If the target is in cover, shoot them with Dragonfire Rounds to ignore it. If not, then Hellfire Rounds are your best choice. Can't tell you how many times these guys have decimated an Ork army.

5. Best Heavy Support Choice: Contrary to what some people say, I actually like Devastator Squads. Heavy Bolters and ML's are the cheapest weapon choices you can take, and are great at Anti-Infantry. I would bring 2, if you have the points and models for them, and fill one out with ML's and the other HB's. Now you've got one squad that can take out a Wagon, and another that can take out the Orks after the Wagon's been destroyed. Thunderfire Cannons, while not my favorite choice of unit, is also a decent choice, provided you have the cover with LOS for most of the board. Otherwise, I would suggest against using it. Vindicators are okay. They're best for going after MegaNobz or Nob Bikers. I would stay away from Predators, and the reason being that if they even suffer so much as a Glancing Hit, you're likely to lose out on all the weapons they can fire for at least a turn.

Most important I'd say is #1. Stick to the strategy of shooting and moving away for as long as possible, and when things get too close, bring the fight to him. Do your best to deny him the charge, and hopefully you'll pull out of the game with a win.

Good luck!

One unit that is surprisingly good against orks is scouts. They can take a 2+ to wound small blast heavy bolter. Paying 85-100 points for a unit that keeps the deff koptas from scout moving too close is very handy (since they have to end their movement 12 away, careful placement can channel them to where you want them).

Simple tips have a lot of template weapons for the green tide orks. I'm a ork player and i really hate template wepons they hurt a lot And don't let him get the charge when we orks get the charge we hurt

DON'T custom tailor a list. This is not only hindering you becomming a better player but also a move. Not to mention orks could be mech, green tide, kan wall or biker. What's the points limit & I'll help you make a list that can handle most anything. Other than that your strategy will depend largely upon how the orks are run.

Billythekid256 wrote:Simple tips have a lot of template weapons for the green tide orks. I'm a ork player and i really hate template wepons they hurt a lot And don't let him get the charge when we orks get the charge we hurt

Also as a speed freek player myself-Its pretty simple. Use blasts, avoid close combat, charge only when close combat is inevitable.

Use a lot of template weapons if you can, try a vindicator, Thunderfire Cannon, or Whirlwind. Those will be very useful against mobs of Boyz and Grots.
Try to keep your marines on the verge of Rapid Fire range, fire as many shots as possible before someone is in assault range, and then assault him if possible.
Try to deny your opponent the charge(keep in mind most Ork weapons are assault weapons), Choppa boys get 4 attacks on the charge with strength 4, Nobz get more attacks and are stronger.
If he has a Deff Dread, assault it with a Dreadnaught (if you have one) the higher initiative strength 10 attacks will (most likely) do some serious damage to it before he has a chance to strike(especially if you were able to melta him before assaulting).

its something about 1750 pts but don't forget i have no preds or vindis all else i do have.. exept for calgar but that doesn't matter i suppose..

i palace a heavy flamer in my termie squad.. but i preffer the normal terminators because they have assault 2 weapons + power fist.. imo they do a lot more damage than TH/SS termies..

notabot187 wrote:Taking HB spam units is an a heavy cost for space marine players. Takes up a slot, and isn't cheap. HB dev squad costs vanilla marines 150 points, which is the same as a ML squad. Why take an inferior weapon when you can have the duel purpose ML? And the small blast is often better than the HB against big blobs or bunched up infantry.

The only HB that you see in most competitive lists these days is on predators and land speeder typhoons, the reason is they cost too much compared to what you could be taking. The base cost of any marine unit is usually pretty high, so why take a sub par gun?

Why even take an inferior unit like dev squads.

Take 2 dakka preds. For 170pts you can get 4 hb's AND 2 ac's in a vehicle.

HQ:
Librarian - Gate of Infinity, Null Zone 100
Librarian - Null Zone, Force Dome 100

Elites:
Dreadnought 125
TL Autocannon
TL Autocannon

Dreadnought 125
TL Autocannon
TL Autocannon

Assault Terminators 200
2 LC
3 TH/SS
Land Raider Crusader 285
Multi Melta
Extra Armor
Storm Bolter

Troops
10 man tac squad 250
Melta
Missile Launcher
Las/Plas Razorback

10 man tac squad 250
Melta
Missile Launcher
Las/Plas Razorback

Fast Attack
Land Speeder 70
Multi Melta
Heavy Flamer

Land Speeder 70
Multi Melta
Heavy Flamer

Land Speeder 70
Multi Melta
Heavy Flamer

Heavy Support

Thunder Fire Cannon 100

I'm a little questionable on the librarians as I don't use them much myself. Beside that I see this as a list that can handle most anything the orks, or any other army can throw at it. Tactically flexibile, can handle a multitude of threats & has NOT been custom tailored to fight any one army in particular. I know people dislike the TFC but anytime I've fired it it made back its' points. Or if my opponent knows what it does they focus so much shooting at it turn 1 the rest of my army is relatively unharmed.

Having 2 Librarians is a little excessive, and if you do decide to use 2, avoid taking the same powers more than once. The only power I'd consider taking twice is Avenger (The Template shooting attack power). Gate of Infinity could be useful to get out of CC when you're too hampered. Force Dome, while useful in some situations, probably isn't as useful against Orks, since they don't have many Str 8 (or higher) weapons, or many weapon that's are AP 3 or better. I would suggest taking one Librarian, in Terminator Armor with a Storm Shield, and an Epistolary. As for Psychic Powers, take Avenger, and either Gate of Infinity or Might of the Ancients. With GoI, you can escape CC if you need to, and with MotA, you can compete better in CC if you want to.

For the Dreadnoughts, I'd keep one CC and replace the Storm Bolter with a Heavy Flamer instead. In my experience, Dreadnoughts are quite capable of holding their own in CC against Orks. With a CC Power Weapon, they're sure to kill a couple of Orks in CC, and the Heavy Flamer makes for the perfect Pre-Assault Shooting weapon. Unless he's got a Power Klaw, that's one squad of Orks that's going to be tied up for awhile.

On the Land Raider, I'd scratch the Storm Bolter. You can invest 10 points into something better. You probably won't need Extra Armor either. Orks, on average, can't Penetrate Armor 14, and even then have trouble Glancing it, so you can likely get away without EA because of it.

On the Tactical Squads, I'd take a Flamer over the Meltagun, and give the Sgt at least a Power Weapon. Change the weapon on the Razorback to the TL Heavy Flamer instead, and you'll be golden.

As for the Land Speeders, I'm pretty sure you mean the normal Land Speeder, and not the Land Speeder Storm. Both are very different with different capabilities. LSS is meant for carrying Scouts around. Otherwise, the weapon loadout is pretty good.

On Heavy Support, the TFC is an okay choice. I personally prefer the Whirlwind. Both would suffice though.

Rurouni Benshin wrote:3. Bring Lots of Armor: Rhinos and Razorbacks will help protect your Infantry, and allow you to shoot them from a distance until they get close enough for your Flamers. Land Raiders are great as well, since they have no regular Shooting Weapon that's higher than Str 8. I personally like Redeemers over Crusaders, and there's one simple reason why. If your Land Raider isn't moving it's maximum distance each turn, then you're not earning the points on it fast enough. I know this contradicts the "gunline theory" of fighting an Ork army, but if your Terminators (or whatever passengers you're carrying) are sitting in a Land Raider for more than 1 turn without seeing some sort of combat, then you're wasting points. And if you're that worried about your Land Raider only getting to shoot once on the first turn, then rest assured that from the second turn on, you're likely to get to shoot at least 2, if not all of your weapons. More often than not, if you move your max distance on Turn 1, you're likely to be close enough so that you won't have to move more than 6" to get within Template Range of your enemy. Plus, your Terminators should be in the middle of CC by then.

Do not do this! In theory, hordes do bad againest vechicales. But, I can assure you, every Nob WILL have a power Klaw. He will put his Nob Squad in a Trukk, and your beloved Preds, Vindi, Rhinos, and maybe a LR will be all gone by turn 3! One exception to his is a Razor with Twin Linked Assualt Cannon! Cuts down the boyz before they get to it!