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Sorry I just need to spill some bile. I've just suffered another Teclis induced defeat, and I propose a new rule for that HE dr. Manhattan.

I call it "the Brain Tumour"

Whenever Teclis rolls 3 of a kind the opponant, namely MEEE!! may dicide the target for the magic in question be it friend or foe.

Should he roll 4 of a kind his head would explode, causing 2d6 s5 hits in the unit he is in, Teclis would be gone, expired, stopped breathing, kicked the bucket... you get the point.

It's only fair that you should sweat a little when playing with nukes!!

Ahm... I'm gonna go and scream into a pillow now.

IT'S NOT A TUMOR!

TBH of all the special characters in the game, while powerfull, teclis isnt the one im most scared of....

that would go to pretty much any daemon special character...
Kairos, Kugath, Masque, Skulltaker are all much scarrier imo.

True, must admid that I hardly ever play against daemons though.
As I said, just a bit of bile. But for a Beastmen army he's difficult to counter. I had an ok plan but hadn't accounted for the banner that makes a unit imune to magic, so I ended up K.O'ing my own shaman.

What lore was Teclis taking?

I know most people use life on him, which makes that immune to magic banner horrible...

Its not immune to enemy spells, its immune to ALL magic, including his own.

Lore of shadow, my minotaurs got their Initiativ lowered to 1 combined with pit of shades and gone they where, it got a few bestigors as well.
My bulk of gors had charged his horde of spearmen, teclis then got Okkam's mindrazor of on the speamen, and no more gors.
On turn 3 what was left of my army was easy picking, all in all it was a crushing defeat.

Just point a cannon at his face.

Nah my new rule is more fun. Besides beastmen have no cannon, but yeah go cannon!!!
I actually had a game since this one, where a Ghorgon snacked on him, it made me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Nagashek, that just made my day xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Why not just ban named characters from your games?

Well Teclis has been banned, at least for now. But to ban all named charecters, is a bit much I think. It's often great fun to create your army around a charecter, if less efficient.

I'm yet to play. What's the problem with Teclis? Generally over-powered or something else? (Besides the tumor)

@Snapsepaven: some special characters-mostly Lord-level casters-are, like Teclis, horrifically unbalanced and make the game a one-sided gambit. Other characters-most of the Hero-level combat characters, like Bugman-are worse than their counterparts.
I think a Hard Comp judgement like "you can't play Teclis" is going to make some people feel singled-out (justly, perhaps, but still not a good thing to feel). Plus, it's a bit of a slippery slope from there. If Teclis is banned, what about Grey Seers with Power Scrolls? Or Life Slann with Rumination and the Hand? Etc. I think it would be safer, easier, and more logical to just ban special characters in your casual games, like Malleus suggested. That's what we did 'round here. It works.

@Squash: It's been a while, but I believe he gets 1 dispel scroll/turn and treats any double on a casting attempt as IF, but only rolls on the Miscast table with a double 6. Snapsepaven aptly described him as "Dr. Manhattan". Though perhaps "Dr. Ulthuan" might be more fitting.

Does teclis srsly only get to roll for miscasts on double 6? How ridiculous is that... thats simply OP imo... can anyone explain to me how he really works? or I might just check his rules...

@Squash: It's been a while, but I believe he gets 1 dispel scroll/turn and treats any double on a casting attempt as IF, but only rolls on the Miscast table with a double 6. Snapsepaven aptly described him as "Dr. Manhattan". Though perhaps "Dr. Ulthuan" might be more fitting.

Not quite his rules. The only part of this that bothers me is that you have banned him from games (well, all special characters but he seems to have been a catalyst) and you do not know his rules.

He does not get 1 dispel scroll per turn. He has 1 dispel scroll per game. That scroll, when used, forces both players to roll a die. Should Teclis' roll be higher, the opposing wizard loses the spell he was attempting to cast.

He treats any double on a casting attempt as IF, BUT he must meet the casting value of the spell in order to cast as well. If you roll double 2's, and the spell requires an 11 to cast, he has failed to cast.

Teclis also ignores the effects of the first miscast he makes each turn.

He adds D3 dice to your power pool each turn as well. Combining this with the Banner of Sorcery results in an average of 11 casting dice per phase.

Now, as for the whole issue of him being "horrifically imbalancing" that I would disagree with. Many players miss the part where Teclis must meet the casting value of the spell in order to cast with IF on doubles. That always results in him being far more powerful than he actually is.

Is he powerful? No doubt. Remember though, he is a 400 point wizard that has no armour save, no ward save and a T of 2. He damn well better be a powerful caster if he is that weak in physical combat.

I think the big change in 8th as opposed to 7th is the limited number of dispel scrolls and power of spells. In 7th everyone had a scroll caddy, and the magic wasn't so powerful. That meant a powerful casting lord did not have as big an impact on the game as they can in 8th. Now with the limited scrolls, combined with the much more powerful spells, means that lord level wizards can have a huge impact on the game. Note, they can potentially have an impact on the game. They are by no means the only powerful builds out there though.

Do I see this as a bad thing? Not entirely. Certain armies (especially High Elves) rely on a powerful casting phase to compensate for many things the army lacks.

I am not a fan of banning special characters of any kind. In a tournament setting, maybe I could understand it (depending on the type of tournament, like fluffy ones, or themed tourneys), but in friendlies, no banning. Have fun with your lists, learn how to beat those power builds and enjoy the game.

8th brought alot of competitiveness to many armies. Lords and Heroes can be played with less of an impact on the game than in 7th. Obviously casters can potentially impact the game more, as I stated previously, but in 7th it was all about big monsters and big heroes/lords riding those monsters to smash entire armies by themselves. Does not banning special characters mean that a High Elf player with Teclis will be deadly? Yes it does. Funny thing is that a High Elf army can be just as devastating with a level 4 using the Book of Hoeth. He will miss out on the extra D3 per phase, but you still end up with a very poweful magic phase.

Clearly I am biased in this regard as High Elves are one of the armies I play. At the same time however, I know his weaknesses and there are ways to stop him. I understand why he gets alot of hate, but there are others, as Warpsolution suggested, that can be just as deadly. Slann with Rumination, Grey Seer with power scroll etc. When you compare him to the other ones out there, Teclis is actually one of the easier wizards to kill.

Lehnsherr wrote:
He treats any double on a casting attempt as IF, BUT he must meet the casting value of the spell in order to cast as well. If you roll double 2's, and the spell requires an 11 to cast, he has failed to cast.

No, he doesn't, and that is why he is so bad. Pg 33, main rule book "A spell cast with irresistible force automatically succeeds, even if the casting total is not enough to reach the spell's casting value...." The only time he might not auto cast on doubles is if he gets snake-eyes when rolling 2 dice, and even that is open to interpretation.

Also, as far as power level, yes, a gray seer with a power scroll can be nasty, IF he doesn't fry himself and the rest of the army with miscast, and also, it is only for one turn, not the whole game.

No, he doesn't, and that is why he is so bad. Pg 33, main rule book "A spell cast with irresistible force automatically succeeds, even if the casting total is not enough to reach the spell's casting value...."

Actually he does...

High Elf Codex... "In addition, any spell cast by Teclis will be cast with Irresistible Force on any successful casting roll which includes a double"

The casting roll MUST be successful. This is exactly why people say stuff like "and thats why he is so bad" because 99% of the time they are playing him wrong.

Okay. Lehnsherr. Whoa, there. I have nothing against Teclis, and he is not the reason me and everyone I play with have all agreed unanimously to avoid special characters. We've been doing it since we started this hobby. So let's not jump to (any more) conclusions.

Thanks for putting up his actual rules, though. That was useful.

Here's a puzzler for everyone, though:

BRB: "...a spell cast with irresistible force automatically succeeds..."
HE Codex: "...will be cast with Irresistible Force on any successful casting roll..."

I'm not trying to be all semantic and RaW, and maybe this deserves it's own thread, but is there a clear-cut answer to this issue?

So, a general reply to the last few posts:

Teclis is, of course, a bigger threat than a Grey Seer with a Power Scroll. Blah blah blah. My point wasn't that they're equal, but that they're both powerful. If you ban one specific item from someone's list, who's judgement do you use to say what else is or isn't fair? Some might say Hell Pit Abominations and Hydras are too good. Or that we should ban any unit of Sword Masters larger than 15 guys. Etc.

My ultimate point: you're taking it upon yourselves to change the way the game is played on a micro-level. You're essentially saying "GW doesn't know as much as we do", and you might be right. But where does it end, then? Why not extend the game-length to 10 turns, and swap all the d6's for d8's? It's a game. It has rules. If you're going to change the lists like that, you're one step closer to just making your own game.

So, that all seems a little odd after I suggested to get rid of all special characters, I'm sure. And it is.
I'm afraid I misspoke. We didn't "ban" anything, we just all don't use them.

A brief two-fold argument: it's a lot easier to see how the basic Lord and Hero choices are balanced from book to book than to compare special characters. That's the first part. The big part for us, though, is that special characters (Teclis being an excellent example) tend to make the game very one-sided.

Game 1: Teclis nukes your army, and you don't stand a ghost of a chance. You're tabled on turn 3 or whatever. Not fun.

Game 2: You rush in to Teclis and kill him, or maybe he somehow blows himself up or whatever, and your opponent loses 400pts just like that, and you crush the remainder of his forces and table him on turn 3 or whatever. Not fun.

We don't like lists that win-or-lose hard. It's not fun to either trample or be trampled into the mud. We like a game that goes back-and-forth, that has some tension. We don't play with Deathstars, or special characters, or super one-trick pony lists, because we don't want to. That's it.

I'd guess, Lehnsherr, that you've had to defend Teclis a lot, and that you're frustrated about it. If that's true, I can dig it. But please, wait for me-personally-to frustrate you, rather than tossing all of the residual frustration from arguments past onto my plate.

So, back on topic: I still stand by what I said before: if you don't have fun against Teclis, I'd talk to your opponent about it. But I really would urge not to pick out Teclis alone; it might lead to making people feel defensive, and it might lead to people assuming you're rather presumptuous. Special characters add a different element to the game, but it's really not necessary to play with them. At least, you could take a break from them on occasion.

So technically, to be able to interprete Teclis properly, things come down to what takes precedence: BRB or armybook... and GW made clear that the armybook trumps the BRB, so Teclis has to reach the casting value even with IF except if he rolls double 6, but then he has to roll for miscast. Am I right? Sorry for going back to the interpretation of Teclis, but all you have said was quite enlightening so thx for clearing things up :p

Teclis has:
-3 power/dispel die's.
-loremaster.
-dispel scroll, on a higher d6 roll than your oponant, the spell is destroyed.
-IF on any double as long as the casting value is met.
-can ignore first miscast.
has a sword that wounds on 2+ (though only 1 attack).

He can often be found in the back of the army in a block of 15-20 phoenix guards. Though T. 2 he is difficult to get to, at least with anything that can beat phoenix guards.

As to the "ban" on Teclis it was proposed by the HE player himself. It came to a point where if Teclis was in an army it won, you could try to beat your way through buffed out elves to get to him, but useing lore of shadow he would just smoke and mirror himself away. We're currently working on a replacement build that will have more lesser tricks than a few awesome tricks, I will put him up for your judgement when he's done.

Playing beastmen I would hate a complete ban or we-do-not-use-characters-at-all agreement, mainly because of my centigors. I would never field centigors without Ghorros Warhoof, magic res. (2) +1 WS and counting towards core sort of make up for 4+ as and I 2. Other than that I tend not to use characters, because making my own builds tend to be as good or better.

So let's not jump to (any more) conclusions

True... sorry about that.

BRB: "...a spell cast with irresistible force automatically succeeds..."
HE Codex: "...will be cast with Irresistible Force on any successful casting roll..."

There is no contradiction here between the 2. Teclis' rules are as clear cut as can be. The spell is ONLY cast with IF if he has a successful casting roll that includes doubles.

Normally, the conditions for a spell to be cast with IF are double 6's. For Teclis, the conditions are different. He gets IF with any double, provided that he also has a successful casting roll. Now, if he scores 2 6's, then yes, the spell will be IF and auto succeed. However, if he does not roll 2 6's, then the IF will only kick in if he has both doubles, and beats the casting value of the spell. We do not even need to get into the debate of specific vs. general.

Teclis is, of course, a bigger threat than a Grey Seer with a Power Scroll.....

I absolutely agree with your entire paragraph here.

My ultimate point: you're taking it upon yourselves to change the way the game is played on a micro-level

Again, agreed here.

Game 1: Teclis nukes your army, and you don't stand a ghost of a chance. You're tabled on turn 3 or whatever. Not fun.

Game 2: You rush in to Teclis and kill him, or maybe he somehow blows himself up or whatever, and your opponent loses 400pts just like that, and you crush the remainder of his forces and table him on turn 3 or whatever. Not fun.

And here we get to the crux of the biggest problem with High Elves in 8th. I've discussed this before in High Elf army lists. If Teclis or a level 4 with the BoH is not on the table, and your opponent has a good list, you are at a distinct disadvantage. I would never say "you are going to lose" as that is simply not true, however you certainly have a mountain to climb. However, if you have Teclis or a BoH level 4, and your opponent didn't bring certain things to counter that kind of powerful magic, then they have the mountain to climb.

We don't like lists that win-or-lose hard. It's not fun to either trample or be trampled into the mud. We like a game that goes back-and-forth, that has some tension. We don't play with Deathstars, or special characters, or super one-trick pony lists, because we don't want to. That's it.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this at all. This is something I do with one of my friends as well. I have tried out fluffy lists I would otherwise never use. That being said, I still have played Teclis from time to time, as the only way to learn how to defeat him is to play against him.

I'd guess, Lehnsherr, that you've had to defend Teclis a lot, and that you're frustrated about it. If that's true, I can dig it. But please, wait for me-personally-to frustrate you, rather than tossing all of the residual frustration from arguments past onto my plate.

Yes. I have had to defend Teclis, and the HE army in general in 8th. High Elves have lost alot of the builds that were "good" in 7th. Thats one of the things about 8th that I don't like, but considering all the positive changes 8th brought, its a small price to pay. Sorry that it seemed I was tossing all the frustration onto you, didn't mean for it to come across like that. Tone is difficult to read across the internet. I quoted your initial post because yours was the only one that discussed his actual rules. The big reason I posted in this thread is for the misconception about how Teclis actually reaches IF. So many players play that wrong (myself included once) and if they learn how his rules actually work, there might be a change in the perception about how "badass" he is.

S'all good.

The only thing that makes me wonder about the IF thing is the definition of "successful". If the two quotes I read earlier in this thread were complete and accurate, then casting with Irresistible Force means the casting was successful. The fact that the BRB says that you cast with IF on two 6's seems irrelevant; IF means your spell is successful. So won't that mean that any double for Teclis or the Book is successful?

I can only assume that (1) I'm missing some key item here, or that (2) the HE Codex is worded a little odd when compared to 8th edition rules. If someone can clear this up for me, I'll be done here. If they can't, I'll put 'er up in You Make Da' Call.

And @Snapsepaven: I see what you're saying. A lot of the new books have a lot of Special Characters. Especially those ones that are more or less uber-unit champions. And they are certainly at the absolute bottom of the list for awesome game-changing brokenness. Still, I'm sure that, if being unable to field that one guy in that one unit is your only complaint, it shouldn't be too hard to take that extra step and not play with special characters.

Beyond that, though, I'd wonder if there wasn't something you could do against Teclis. If he's in the back with some Phoenix Guard, he's in a tough nut to crack, but he's still the squishiest guy around. If you threw some Gors at his unit, and directed as many attacks as you could at Teclis, he'd be dead in a round.
The only issue with that would be Shadow de-buffs. But I don't think we ought to get into a tactical discussion here any more than a semantic one. Suffice it to say my opinion remains as it was, and I am having a hard time imagining just how hopeless your cause to murder the greatest High Elf mage in history really is.

The only thing that makes me wonder about the IF thing is the definition of "successful".

Well, the main issue is that if you apply the "always successful" of an IF to the spell, you have jumped the gun.

You have to determine a spell is cast with IF before you can apply the effects of IF.

Normally, this means that if a wizard rolls double 6's, the spell will be cast with IF and it will automatically be successful regardless of whether or not the casting roll was successful.

This rule applies to Teclis as well.

However, Teclis has an additional rule that allows him to reach IF in another way.

He must roll a double on a successful casting roll. If he does this, you may then consider the spell cast with IF, which in turn means the spell automatically succeeds (which is redundant at this point).

A successful casting roll is one that matches, or is higher than the number required for the spell to be cast.

To summarize, only apply the effects of IF if you have met the requirements for IF.
Requirements:
A) Double sixes
B) Any double on a successful casting roll

Effects of IF
A) Automatically succeeds on the casting roll (redundant if reached by B)
B) Cannot be dispelled
C) Roll on the miscast table if double 6's
... and all the other various things that may occur with an IF

"A successful casting roll is one that matches, or is higher than the number required for the spell to be cast."

Is it? This is my question.

So I looked through the book, and found enough weird stuff that I'll go and put this in another thread.

Pg. 32 of the BRB
"If the casting result equals or exceeds the spell's casting value, the spell is cast. If the result is less than the casting value, the casting attempt has failed. The spell is not cast."

In this case, we know that to have a successful attempt, it must be one that has not failed (as per the meaning of the words succeed and fail that is).

If Teclis' attempt to cast results in failure, then he cannot invoke the rule for IF as he has not had a successful casting roll that included a double.

Squash wrote:I'm yet to play. What's the problem with Teclis? Generally over-powered or something else? (Besides the tumor)

Teclis gets to choose ANY lore from the book he wants and knows all the spells.

he generates d3 power dice and dispell dice each turn.

he has a special dispel scroll which also removes the spell from the caster's mind.

he has a book which says that if he rolls doubles of anything and meets the casting value of the spell, the spell goes off with Irristable force.

He also gets +5 to cast and dispell.

he also has a sword that wounds on 2s and ignores armor.


the only balance to this is that he has no saves and is T2. he also costs alot of points, but if you can get him it's pretty much a good chance of success unless you are a horrible player.

His rules aren't confusing. There's 50 threads on him.

The problem is, magic is balanced in that it's dangerous to use. People's faces explode all the time. That doesn't really happen with Teclis unless you get to turn 50 in a 300,000 point game or are just insanely unlucky.

His low physical presence isn't that bad because he's not leading the troops in his underwear. He's sitting in a protected unit.

He's like a Lizardman Slaan (who btw, taught the sucker how to do magic, though they seem to be better at it now--lazy frogs). But he's less expensive to get the same abilities, can do a lot more spelly stuff, but a lot more fragile. And he's not a Buddha frog.

Nagashek, that was awesome!

Melkhiordarkblade wrote:Just point a cannon at his face.

not all armies have cannons.
The OP is beastmen.


Honestly, I just don't consider Tecilis a 'friendly game'. The kind of person who brings him spams 'dwellers' on your army turn 1-end. It doesn't make for an enjoyable time.
when I see him, it's a sign of lack of imagination on the opponent's side. HE can make nasty lords, why use him?

Anywho, i rarely play against special chars.
I feel your pain.

This is an EX-TECLIS!
Sorry, great Monty Python reference.


As for whether or not he's overbalanced, I'd say not really. He's hard to counter and I think numerous special characters need to be recosted or tuned in directions up or down in relation to their ability.

But that's all matter of personal opinion and generally I don't play against special characters unless it's a very rare occurrence.
Luckily none of my opponents run Teclis.

I don't think it's Teclis specifically that's the problem- it's his abilities combined with over-the-top "hurrrr cinematic hurrrr" magic... spells that can blow up entire units or regrow even the most elite of troops are just a bit crazy.